The all-knowing/infallible/all-powerful god paradox

[Wandered Off]

Well, would it be inappropriate to explain my perspective?

I'd like that. If you are worried about derailing this thread, then pop on over to the one I started on this topic:
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...would-foreknowledge-contradict-free-will.html
I think it would be fine here too though.

 

[Storm]

OK. Well, as I think you know I believe in what someone cleverer than I dubbed "the living Godiverse." We're aspects of God. Our bodies, our decisions, are God's. Will expand/ clarify for anyone unfamiliar, just ask. Also, I believe in the Elders, which are closer to theistic ideas of Gods, but like us, they're part of God. They serve as guides and teachers for us, helping us toward maturity.

Anyway, my God is not omnipotent, but it could be fairly (if arguably) called omniscient. It's consciousness is a primal element of reality, and nothing happens that it doesn't know.

I rely pretty heavily on the metaphor as time as a tapestry, with individual lives being the threads. The Elders weave the tapestry, while we spin our own threads. IOW, they present us with choices, how we respond is up to us. They (and therefore God) have a longer view than we do, and are sensitive to the pattern of the tapestry, which translates to limited foreknowledge. However, our choices are still our own. The fact that they know us well enough to predict our responses does not negate that.

Did that make any sense at all? I haven't had my coffee yet.

 

[Wandered Off]

However, our choices are still our own. The fact that they know us well enough to predict our responses does not negate that.

Prediction doesn't imply certainty to me, so just to clarify: Could any of these predictions possibly ever be wrong? Can these elders be surprised?

 

[Storm]

Prediction doesn't imply certainty to me, so just to clarify: Could any of these predictions possibly ever be wrong?

It kinda depends. We might surprise the Elders from time to time (not remotely sure about that, though), but not God, who encompasses us as well.

What I'm saying is that I think there's a sort of inertia to time. The pattern of the tapestry does not change quickly. So, the future is knowable to an extent. The fruther you go, the more unpredictable it becomes, but I believe they know everything that will happen tomorrow, for instance.

 

[Wandered Off]

I believe they know everything that will happen tomorrow, for instance.

Fair enough. If you are presented with a "choice" tomorrow and they know with absolute certainty what you will decide because the tapestry for tomorrow is woven already, then you are incapable of choosing anything other than what is already woven. This is not free will. You perceive a choice, but it's only an illusion from your perspective because you can't see the tapestry.

 

[Storm]

Fair enough. If you are presented with a "choice" tomorrow and they know with absolute certainty what you will decide because the tapestry for tomorrow is woven already, then you are incapable of choosing anything other than what is already woven. This is not free will. You perceive a choice, but it's only an illusion from your perspective because you can't see the tapestry.

Ah, but it's NOT already woven, it's predicted with near certainty. WE spin the threads, they weave as we do.

It's like when we asked my son whether or not he wanted a party to mark a specific occasion. I KNEW he would say yes, but the choice was still his.

That said, free will isn't black and white in my theology. I'm closer to it than determinism, but our control is not absolute. For example, I didn't choose to strugle with depression, or to be abused. I did and do choose how to respond. That's all me.

The tapestry really is the perfect metaphor for this. As we spin with our choices, we take the pattern in new directions. At the same time, we're constrained by the weave; there are only so many directions a given thread can go.

 

[Wandered Off]

Ah, but it's NOT already woven, it's predicted with near certainty. WE spin the threads, they weave as we do.

OK, well that's not incompatible with free will, so we're not really arguing. Yay!

 

[Storm]

OK, well that's not incompatible with free will, so we're not really arguing. Yay!

And it includes a kind of omniscience.

 

[doppelganger]

Ah, but it's NOT already woven, it's predicted with near certainty.

A God with complete knowledge of the past would have no need to predict anything, unless the universe is non-causal. If the universe is causal, then complete knowledge of the past would allow complete certainty and therefore true knowledge of the future as well.

You didn't know your son would say yes. You predicted it with a very high level of confidence. But you don't have complete information.

Only by looking back on the tapestry and seeing the direction it has gone - without knowing why it went that direction - does it appear that it could have been other than it is.

 

[Storm]

A God with complete knowledge of the past would have no need to predict anything, unless the universe is non-causal. If the universe is causal, then complete knowledge of the past would allow complete certainty and therefore true knowledge of the future as well.

You didn't know your son would say yes. You predicted it with a very high level of confidence. But you don't have complete information.

Only by looking back on the tapestry and seeing the direction it has gone - without knowing why it went that direction - does it appear that it could have been other than it is.

Before I respond, could you kindly clarify what you mean by "non/ causal?"

 

[doppelganger]

Before I respond, could you kindly clarify what you mean by "non/ causal?"

Non-causal means that some or all of the events of the universe do not have to abide by the logic of cause and effect. In other words, not every event or thing requires a cause. This is a necessary modification of the logic of our grammar and science necessary to there being a "free" will - i.e. some or all of human intentionality is not dependent on a prior cause. Of course, acknowledging free will and negating cause and effect then negates the prime mover justification for "God."

 

[Storm]

Non-causal means that some or all of the events of the universe do not have to abide by the logic of cause and effect. In other words, not every event or thing requires a cause. This is a necessary modification of the logic of our grammar and science necessary to there being a "free" will - i.e. some or all of human intentionality is not dependent on a prior cause. Of course, acknowledging free will and negating cause and effect then negates the prime mover justification for "God."

OK, with the caveat of "some, not all," I think I would go with a non-causal cosmos. I'm not really sure, though.

As for the Prime Mover justification, it's kinda irrelevant to my theology, so have no qualms negating it.

A God with complete knowledge of the past would have no need to predict anything, unless the universe is non-causal. If the universe is causal, then complete knowledge of the past would allow complete certainty and therefore true knowledge of the future as well.

You didn't know your son would say yes. You predicted it with a very high level of confidence. But you don't have complete information.

No, but God does. God is privy to our every thought, the emotions and psychology that influence them, and every other detail, PLUS the perspective of the Elders, because our consciousness is merely a manifestation of its own. Now, this is God, not the Elders, which is why I think it's possible that we surprise them from time to time. But God encompasses us all.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

I think the simplest way to put it is, for instance, let's say that you had pancakes this morning for breakfast. You could of had eggs - you could of had cereal, but you had pancakes.

Can you now decide to have something different for breakfast this morning? Can you change it so you had eggs instead of pancakes for breakfast this morning? Can you make another choice about what you had for breakfast this morning other than the choice you made to have pancakes?

No.

This is what omniscience would be like in relation to every decision ever made by anyone, for all time. If god knows what you're going to do next year, it's exactly the same as if he was looking back on what you did last year. Time would have no meaning. Every event would already be known from one end of time to the other, so any perception of time would purely be an illusion.

You can't make a decision about something you did last year - the choice has already been made - just the same as if what you're going to do next year was known precisely. The choice would already be made.

Exactly. The choice is already made. Looking back at the choice you had to eat pancakes, can you change it now? No. But did you have a choice then? Was there free will? If yes, I think the same yes can be applied to a choice in the future that has already been discerned. If no, well, we live in a causal universe. That's how I see it. I'm not certain I'm right though. Just my pov.

 

[mordorf]

If someone knows of everything that is going to happen or has happend and he doesn't tell anyone how selfish and evil isn't that.
Let's say that i know that there is going to a terror attack in New York i don't tell anyone what does that make me..Selfish,Evil,God..
And if god knows everything and he created humans why does he need a book of what he has done, why not make so that humans know of everything that he has done from the first time we are born???

 

[Anti-thesisofreason]

If someone knows of everything that is going to happen or has happend and he doesn't tell anyone how selfish and evil isn't that.
Let's say that i know that there is going to a terror attack in New York i don't tell anyone what does that make me..Selfish,Evil,God..
And if god knows everything and he created humans why does he need a book of what he has done, why not make so that humans know of everything that he has done from the first time we are born???

Why bother creating life in the first place?

 

[Kathryn]

Here's a simplistic view of how I see things:

1) I don't believe time is strictly linear. I believe there are all sorts of aspect to time that are incomprehensible from our limited human perspective and experience.

2) Speaking of limited perspective, get out a piece of notebook paper. Draw a circle about an inch across in the center of it. Label it "My Understanding." Then draw a much bigger circle around that one. Label it, "Totality of Human Understanding." Then draw a huge circle around that one - you can even go off the piece of paper for that one! That circle represents "God's Understanding."

3) Finally, as a person of faith, I am OK with mysteries. This is because I believe in the Holiness of God. I believe that His holiness is so complete that I cannot truly grasp it all with my limited understanding, and that it is my duty to deepen my understanding throughout my life, so that I can strive toward that ideal. But when I run across the age-old question of "free will vs predestination," I believe that the Bible teaches BOTH scenarios. Since I believe the Bible to be true, then both must be true. They cannot cancel each other out, whether I understand how they work together or not. God is totally holy and His will is perfectly holy - whether I understand Him or not.

So these two principles work together, outside of linear time. And one day I will fully understand how.

The Christian faith is all about APPLICATION. We can sit around all day long and philosophize, but the bottom line is, "What's my application?"

My application is this - I believe that Christ Jesus died on the cross for my sins, and that if I repent and accept His grace, I am a child of God. But that salvation, that grace, that sacrifice is both linear and eternal. Christ died one time, but His sacrifice transcends time because it covered sins of the past, present and future.

Therefore, my salvation isn't linear. It's an ongoing process. I believe I have been saved, I am saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved. None of those statements is contradictory.

Finally, a great quote from CS Lewis:

"Can a mortal ask questions which God finds unanswerable? Quite easily, I should think. All nonsense questions are unanswerable."

 

[mordorf]

Why bother creating life in the first place?

Yes well he didn't create life or anything all the evidence shows that it's a natural cause from the start of our universe to our planet and all the animals that lives here.

If he created us why hide,
If all-knowing why does he need to tell us what to do,

Why are religious people so afraid of question what the bible says,
Do you believe in Santa Claus or Unicorns????

 

[Kathryn]

Don't hijack the thread - this thread isn't about whether or not to believe in God. The OP assumes the belief in God and the questions follow that belief.

 

[mordorf]

Don't hijack the thread - this thread isn't about whether or not to believe in God. The OP assumes the belief in God and the questions follow that belief.

And i assume that there is no God and wonder why you believe??

Anyone can believe anything what they want but why always claim a supernatural being when you can't explain the phenomena why can't it be a natural cause instead of a supernatural cause that is what i wonder about and don't claim faith because that doesn't explain anything.

i can have faith in that man kind will be able to run in the speed of light doesn't mean that it's true.

 

[Storm]

And i assume that there is no God and wonder why you believe??

Anyone can believe anything what they want but why always claim a supernatural being when you can't explain the phenomena why can't it be a natural cause instead of a supernatural cause that is what i wonder about and don't claim faith because that doesn't explain anything.

i can have faith in that man kind will be able to run in the speed of light doesn't mean that it's true.

Then start your own thread (or read one of the others asking the same question), don't hijack this one. I'll be happy to participate.