The 10...Er, 613 Commandments

[Neo Deist]

The Bible (OT) actually has 613 commandments, not 10.

Christians will say that Jesus fulfilled the Law and a new covenant was created. They will quote Matthew 5:17 as proof of that. However, they fail to keep reading the rest of the chapter, and in particular the next two verses.

[NASB]
5:18 - For truly I say to you, until Heaven and Earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

5:19 - Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of Heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven.

When Jesus says the "Law," he is referring to the Torah, or Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. When he says the "Prophets," he is referring to the various Books of Prophets, such as Isaiah. Very clearly he made the statement that none of the Laws should be ignored, changed or set aside. They are binding!

There is one argument that I have heard over the years that has some merit, but it comes from Judaism, not Christianity. That is the idea that Gentiles (non Jews) are not subject to the 613 Jewish laws, but rather the 7 Noahide laws. The people that Jesus was speaking to were Jewish. They would understand what he meant. Gentiles...not so much.

These are the 7 Noahide Laws:

1. Do not deny God.
2. Do not blaspheme God.
3. Do not murder.
4. Do not engage in illicit sexual relations.
5. Do not steal.
6. Do not eat from a live animal.
7. Establish courts/legal system to ensure obedience to the law.

@Tumah and @Eliab ben Benjamin, feel free to jump in here and correct any of my Jewish understanding.

Others will say that Jesus did away with the old covenant and gave Christians a new one in Matthew 22:37-39.

[NASB]
22:37 - And He said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
22:38 - This is the great and foremost commandment.
22:39 - The second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’

Using these three verses, they justify their position and beliefs to ignore 603 commandments, opting for just 10 (even though only 2 are listed above). The weird thing is that Jesus never said "these are now the only commandments you must follow." If they had kept reading the same chapter, they would come to the very next verse:

22:40 - On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

Even after all of that, Jesus still refers to the OT and how it is binding. So this begs the question:

Are Christians subject to 613 biblical laws or 7?

 

[David1967]

Are Christians subject to 613 biblical laws or 7?

No. These laws were given to the Jews, not Gentiles. And Jesus was talking to the Jews. That doesn't however mean that they are irrelevant. IMHO

 

[Neo Deist]

No. These laws were given to the Jews, not Gentiles. And Jesus was talking to the Jews. That doesn't however mean that they are irrelevant. IMHO

So are you saying the 7 Noahide laws?

 

[David1967]

So are you saying the 7 Noahide laws?

Maybe, but not # 7.

 

[Neo Deist]

Maybe, but not # 7.

Would you explain your position? If not the 613, and if not the 10 that come from the 613, that leaves the 7 Noahide laws for Gentiles.

 

[RabbiO]

@Tumah and @Eliab ben Benjamin, feel free to jump in here and correct any of my Jewish understanding.......

I understand that as a rabbi within the Reform movement my opinion perhaps does not count, however rosends is an Orthodox rabbi and I would think you would extend the opportunity for comment to him as well.

 

[Neo Deist]

I understand that as a rabbi within the Reform movement my opinion perhaps does not count, however rosends is an Orthodox rabbi and I would think you would extend the opportunity for comment to him as well.

Any are welcome. Those are just the two that I knew of.

 

[David1967]

Would you explain your position? If not the 613, and if not the 10 that come from the 613, that leaves the 7 Noahide laws for Gentiles.

Ok. I reject # 7, because I would never want to live under a theocracy.

 

[Neo Deist]

Ok. I reject # 7, because I would never want to live under a theocracy.

Ok.

 

[Tumah]

The concept portrayed here is related to one that is expressed by Hillel and a student of his school named Akiva.

Another story with a certain non-Jew who came to Shammai and said, "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah [while I am] standing on one leg". [Shammai] pushed him away with the builder's measuring stick that was in his hand. He came in front of Hillel and he converted him. He said, "What is hateful to you, don't do to your friend, that is the whole Torah and the rest is explanation. Go and learn [it]."
​

The other one is a statement:

"Love your friend as yourself" Rabbi Akiva said, this is a great rule in the Torah.
Ben Azai said, "This is the book of the generations of Man", this is a greater rule than that.
​

The concept can be more easily understood from the verse where the Congregation of Israel says about G-d, "This is my Beloved and this is my Friend (SoS 5:16)". We learn from there that G-d is also called a "friend" and it has application in a number of verses, such as Prov. 25:17 and 27:10.

So what Hillel and Rabbi Akiva are saying is that this verse/concept sums up both types of Biblical commandments: the ones between man and G-d and the one between man and man. Don't do the things G-d doesn't like and don't do the things man doesn't like. And you can find out what those things are, by studying the Torah.

It looks like the author is attempting to rephrase that idea in Jesus' name.

 

[Valjean]

No. These laws were given to the Jews, not Gentiles. And Jesus was talking to the Jews. That doesn't however mean that they are irrelevant. IMHO

Yes, it was a long time before it occurred to anyone that their church wasn't just another Jewish sect. But the eventual anti-Semitic schism never dropped the Old Testament as church canon.
Neo Deist makes a good point. The biblical underpinning for disregarding the Torah is highly ambiguous, while Jesus' statements in support of it are pretty clear.
When a religious tenet becomes inconvenient, Christians cherry-pick.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Ok. I reject # 7, because I would never want to live under a theocracy.

Please keep in mind the 'modern-day definition' of theocracy is often used as clergy rule or rule by clergy class.
The theocracy the prophet Daniel believed in is the theocratic kingdom government of Daniel 2:44 which is Not headed by a clergy class, but has Jesus as head, or king (president) of God's kingdom.

When Adam broke God's Law, that was as if Adam took the Law out of God's hands and placed the Law into man's hands. To me, Adam was No longer theocratic (God ruled) in his thinking, but became autonomous (self governed) in his thinking. Adam set up People Rule as superior to God Rule. Clergy often set up clergy rule as if it is God Rule when it is Not. Clerical theocracy is Not the theocracy of the Bible.

We live under man rule, and man rule has shown that man can Not govern himself to establish Peace on Earth.
Whereas the theonomous law (God governed Law) that Jesus believed in, and what Jesus taught, will bring Peace on Earth.
Since most people want peace, then who would Not want to live under Jesus' Peace on Earth - Micah 4:3-4

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The Bible (OT) actually has 613 commandments, not 10.
Christians will say that Jesus fulfilled the Law and a new covenant was created. They will quote Matthew 5:17 as proof of that. However, they fail to keep reading the rest of the chapter, and in particular the next two verses.
[NASB]
5:18 - For truly I say to you, until Heaven and Earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
5:19 - Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of Heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven.
When Jesus says the "Law," he is referring to the Torah, or Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. When he says the "Prophets," he is referring to the various Books of Prophets, such as Isaiah. Very clearly he made the statement that none of the Laws should be ignored, changed or set aside. They are binding!
There is one argument that I have heard over the years that has some merit, but it comes from Judaism, not Christianity. That is the idea that Gentiles (non Jews) are not subject to the 613 Jewish laws, but rather the 7 Noahide laws. The people that Jesus was speaking to were Jewish. They would understand what he meant. Gentiles...not so much.
These are the 7 Noahide Laws:

1. Do not deny God.
2. Do not blaspheme God.
3. Do not murder.
4. Do not engage in illicit sexual relations.
5. Do not steal.
6. Do not eat from a live animal.
7. Establish courts/legal system to ensure obedience to the law.

Others will say that Jesus did away with the old covenant and gave Christians a new one in Matthew 22:37-39.
[NASB]
22:37 - And He said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
22:38 - This is the great and foremost commandment.
22:39 - The second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
Using these three verses, they justify their position and beliefs to ignore 603 commandments, opting for just 10 (even though only 2 are listed above). The weird thing is that Jesus never said "these are now the only commandments you must follow." If they had kept reading the same chapter, they would come to the very next verse:
22:40 - On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”
Even after all of that, Jesus still refers to the OT and how it is binding. So this begs the question:
Are Christians subject to 613 biblical laws or 7?

To me, the Rainbow Covenant of Genesis is a permanent covenant or contract, whereas the Constitution of the Mosaic Law was temporary, and only for the one nation of ancient Israel.

Under the old Hebrew Law it was to love God and love neighbor as self, but Jesus gave Christians a NEW law as found at John 13:34-35 to have 'self-sacrificing love' for others as Jesus had. In other words, Christians are NOW to love neighbor MORE than self. Jesus' fulfilled, accomplished the old Law - Romans 10:4
Just as it is impossible, according to Ecclesiastes 1:4 B, for the Earth to pass away, and impossible for God's heavenly home to pass away, so the smallest letter of the Law did Not pass away before Christ fulfilled, accomplished all.

Since Pentecost, first, the way was opened to the Jews to follow Christ, then the second way was opened for the Samaritans to follow Christ, finally the third way was opened up for the people of the nations, the gentile nations, to follow Christ starting with Cornelius at Acts of the Apostles 10

 

[Neo Deist]

...but Jesus gave Christians a NEW law as found at John 13:34-35 to have 'self-sacrificing love' for others as Jesus had.

John 13:34-35 only states that Jesus gave ANOTHER commandment, not a replacement. Refer to the OP.

In other words, Christians are NOW to love neighbor MORE than self. Jesus' fulfilled, accomplished the old Law - Romans 10:4

What Romans 10:4 actually means is that Jesus was the GOAL of the law for righteousness. It does not mean the law ended with him.

 

[David1967]

Please keep in mind the 'modern-day definition' of theocracy is often used as clergy rule or rule by clergy class.
The theocracy the prophet Daniel believed in is the theocratic kingdom government of Daniel 2:44 which is Not headed by a clergy class, but has Jesus as head, or king (president) of God's kingdom.

When Adam broke God's Law, that was as if Adam took the Law out of God's hands and placed the Law into man's hands. To me, Adam was No longer theocratic (God ruled) in his thinking, but became autonomous (self governed) in his thinking. Adam set up People Rule as superior to God Rule. Clergy often set up clergy rule as if it is God Rule when it is Not. Clerical theocracy is Not the theocracy of the Bible.

We live under man rule, and man rule has shown that man can Not govern himself to establish Peace on Earth.
Whereas the theonomous law (God governed Law) that Jesus believed in, and what Jesus taught, will bring Peace on Earth.
Since most people want peace, then who would Not want to live under Jesus' Peace on Earth - Micah 4:3-4

Yes of course. When I say theocracy in relation to this thread, I am referring to theocracies controlled by man.

 

[David1967]

John 13:34-35 only states that Jesus gave ANOTHER commandment, not a replacement. Refer to the OP.

I've heard this called the eleventh commandment.
Man, you are changing your avatar so much I'm really having to pay attention.

 

[Neo Deist]

I've heard this called the eleventh commandment.
Man, you are changing your avatar so much I'm really having to pay attention.

LOL...playing around with photo editor.

 

[Jonathan Ainsley Bain]

The Bible (OT) actually has 613 commandments, not 10.

Christians will say that Jesus fulfilled the Law and a new covenant was created. They will quote Matthew 5:17 as proof of that. However, they fail to keep reading the rest of the chapter, and in particular the next two verses.

[NASB]
5:18 - For truly I say to you, until Heaven and Earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

5:19 - Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of Heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven.

When Jesus says the "Law," he is referring to the Torah, or Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. When he says the "Prophets," he is referring to the various Books of Prophets, such as Isaiah. Very clearly he made the statement that none of the Laws should be ignored, changed or set aside. They are binding!

There is one argument that I have heard over the years that has some merit, but it comes from Judaism, not Christianity. That is the idea that Gentiles (non Jews) are not subject to the 613 Jewish laws, but rather the 7 Noahide laws. The people that Jesus was speaking to were Jewish. They would understand what he meant. Gentiles...not so much.

These are the 7 Noahide Laws:

1. Do not deny God.
2. Do not blaspheme God.
3. Do not murder.
4. Do not engage in illicit sexual relations.
5. Do not steal.
6. Do not eat from a live animal.
7. Establish courts/legal system to ensure obedience to the law.

@Tumah and @Eliab ben Benjamin, feel free to jump in here and correct any of my Jewish understanding.

Others will say that Jesus did away with the old covenant and gave Christians a new one in Matthew 22:37-39.

[NASB]
22:37 - And He said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
22:38 - This is the great and foremost commandment.
22:39 - The second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’

Using these three verses, they justify their position and beliefs to ignore 603 commandments, opting for just 10 (even though only 2 are listed above). The weird thing is that Jesus never said "these are now the only commandments you must follow." If they had kept reading the same chapter, they would come to the very next verse:

22:40 - On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

Even after all of that, Jesus still refers to the OT and how it is binding. So this begs the question:

Are Christians subject to 613 biblical laws or 7?

Interesting.
Especially since the new testament proves that circumcision is a useless thing.
Though I am unsure whether to call it a law or commandment or covenant or custom, or....?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

John 13:34-35 only states that Jesus gave ANOTHER commandment, not a replacement. Refer to the OP.
What Romans 10:4 actually means is that Jesus was the GOAL of the law for righteousness. It does not mean the law ended with him.

Romans 10:4 says: For Christ is the end of the Law.....
Romans 3:20 says:... by the deeds of the Law there shall be No flesh justified in his sight; for by the Law is the knowledge of sin.

At John 13:34-35 to me Jesus gives a NEW commandment. That NEW commandment covered more than love neighbor as self, but now love neighbor MORE than self. Have the same self-sacrificing love for others as Jesus had
-> John 15:12-14

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Yes of course. When I say theocracy in relation to this thread, I am referring to theocracies controlled by man.

Good point ^ above ^ because today when people hear the word theocracy they want to reject clergy rule because they wrongly think clergy rule is the definition of biblical theocracy.