Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
Except blasphemy is an ok and justifiable reason to imprison, maim, and kill. (5:33).
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Teacher Beheaded near Paris
- Thread starter Polymath257
- Start date
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
FYI
If Anyone Slew a Person (Qur'an 5:32) - WikiIslam
5:32 doesn't say what you think it says, or what apologists like to pretend it says.
Altfish
Veteran Member
Well you need to do an audit on your preachers than,
Altfish
Veteran Member
Is this the same religion whose god will send you to hell for eternity for not believing in her?
PureX
Veteran Member
Religion doesn't MAKE anyone do anything. People choose their own paths, and their own actions. And blaming those choices on religion, or God, or ideologically justified vengeance, or whatever else, is just making dishonest excuses.
Spirit of Light
Be who ever you want
I still know that killing is wrong, so i condemn the action that was done in Paris.
Altfish
Veteran Member
I should think so.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Beliefs inform actions.
It's not an excuse. It's a fact.
Someone who doesn't consider it his or her religious duty to behead a man in broad daylight as "punishment" for insulting his religion, will not be beheading a man in broad daylight while shouting "allahu akbar" for insulting his religion.
It is that simple. His actions are a direct result of his religious beliefs.
If he didn't believe what he believes, he wouldn't have done it.
Or would you try to argue that if he were an atheist or christian or buddhist or hindu, he would have beheaded the dude anyway for showing a mohamed cartoon in class?
Let's be intellectually honest about this and not cloud the facts with "political correctness" nonsense.
Let's call a pig a pig.
Hellbound Serpiente
Active Member
You missed proper context of the Islamic verse. I still remember somewhat of Qur'an and every verse about warring against disbelievers are about those disbelievers who started unjust persecution of Muslims, and began an illegal war with them even after they had a peace treaty with them and were driven out of their homeland to another city [Medina]. Here's another verse that put a wet blanket to the perceptual "intolerance" implied in the last Islamic verse you quoted:
As for such [of the unbelievers] as do not fight against you on account of [your] faith, and neither drive you forth from your homelands, God does not forbid you to show them kindness and to behave towards them with full equity: for, verily, God loves those who act equitably. (Quran 60:8)
As you can see, Muslims are commanded to NOT fight those who fought against Muslim because they accepted Islam. They are only commanded to fight those who were persecuting Muslim for more than a decade [read the persecution of Muslims in Makkah] for no reason whatsoever.
All the commands about fighting disbelievers were verses that talks about self-defense during wars [starting by disbelievers]. Here is other verse that makes it clear:
"And fight in the way of Allah the ones who fight you, but do not transgress; surely Allah does not love the transgressors." 2:190
There are countless such verses where God commands to give peace if they want peace and war if they persist in fighting. I think you got Biblical verses out of context too because I am fairly sure I am heard sound rebuttals of these and other such verses from some of my Christian brothers and sisters..
No. That religion is a bastardization, misuse and abuse. The God of the Old Testament and God of the New Testament are not, in my opinion, the same God. Or at least he’s looked at differently by the time of Jesus.
Even then I’m not convinced that God is actually as he’s portrayed. I know our Jewish friends can shed more light, because afaik Jews don’t view him as a bloodthirsty vengeful tyrant.
I’m not Christian anymore not because of its God but simply because the theology and cosmology don’t mesh with what and how I believe reality and God are.
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Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
You think they believe they are doing otherwise?
Teaching has a big impact on some people. Teach that killing in the name of god is still teaching
Hellbound Serpiente
Active Member
This is what the verse say:
Sahih International: Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment, 5:33
As you can see, the keywords here are "wage war". It doesn't say anything about blasphemy. Also, you forgot what the very next verse says:
Sahih International: Except for those who return [repenting] before you apprehend them. And know that Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. 5:34
Here is the whole context about these verses about warfare:
Persecution of Muslims by Meccans - Wikipedia
Hellbound Serpiente
Active Member
Their believing has absolutely no bearing on the original instructions of the text. Many Nazis has pseudo-scientific teachings incorporated in their sick ideologies too. Let me cut/paste
Darwinism and the Nazi Race Holocaust
by Dr. Jerry Bergman on November 1, 1999
Originally published in Journal of Creation 13, no 2 (November 1999): 101-111.
Abstract
Leading Nazis, and early 1900 influential German biologists, revealed in their writings that Darwin’s theory and publications had a major influence upon Nazi race policies.
Hitler believed that the human gene pool could be improved by using selective breeding similar to how farmers breed superior cattle strains. In the formulation of their racial policies, Hitler’s government relied heavily upon Darwinism, especially the elaborations by Spencer and Haeckel. As a result, a central policy of Hitler’s administration was the development and implementation of policies designed to protect the ‘superior race’. This required at the very least preventing the ‘inferior races’ from mixing with those judged superior, in order to reduce contamination of the latter’s gene pool. The ‘superior race’ belief was based on the theory of group inequality within each species, a major presumption and requirement of Darwin’s original ‘survival of the fittest’ theory. This philosophy culminated in the ‘final solution’, the extermination of approximately six million Jews and four million other people who belonged to what German scientists judged as ‘inferior races’.
Darwinism and the Nazi Race Holocaust
Now, I am a believer of evolution and Darwin's theory, but would it be rational if I blame Darwin, theory of evolution and science for what Nazis did? That would be absurd
So... I can use these verses to justify doing my self-imposed duty of ridding the world of bad guys because a text I take seriously says I can? I’m not really killing or harming anyone, just removing him from play? No I cannot, because that’s not what it’s saying. I have my issues but I’m not that far gone. The guy is deluded and deranged.
17. Know that Reality, by which everything is pervaded, to be indestructible. No one can cause the destruction of this immutable Being.
18. What is said to perish are these bodies, in which the imperishable and unlimited Spirit is embodied. Therefore fight, O scion of the Bharata race!
19. He who thinks him (the Self) to be the killer, and who experiences him (the Self) as the killed - both of them know not. He (the Self) neither kills nor is killed.
20. He (this Self) has neither birth nor death. Nor does he cease to be, having been in existence before; unborn, eternal permanent and primeval, he is never killed when the body is killed.
21. O Arjuna! know this self to be eternal, undecaying, birthless and indestructible. A person who knows him to be so - whom can he slay or cause another to slay.
22. Just as a man gives up old garments and puts on new ones, so the embodied self abandons decrepit bodies and assumes new ones.
23. Him the weapons cleave not; Him the fire bums not; Him the waters wet not; Him the wind dries not.
24. He cannot be cut or burnt. He can neither be wetted nor dried. Eternal, all-pervading, immovable and motionless. He is the same for ever.
25. Knowing Him (the Self) to be unmanifest, inconceivable, and unmodifiable, it is improper to mourn for Him.
26. In the alternative, even if you hold him (the Self) to be subject to constant births and deaths, there is no justification, O mighty armed, for your mourning for him.
27. For the born, death is unavoidable; and for the dead, birth is sure to take place. Therefore in a situation that is inevitable, there is no justification for you to grieve.
28. Mystery surrounds the origin of beings. Mysterious too is their end. Only in the interim, between birth and death, are they manifested clearly. Such being the case, what is there to grieve about?
...
30. At no time can the Spirit embodied in all beings be slain. Therefore there is no reason for you to grieve for any one.
Why do I have the feeling we are going back to the dark ages? What's next? Burning people on a public fire?
That "religion of peace" thing came from something Bush jr said, not from Muslims. I really wish people would drop it. It's stupid, and the people using it expose their ignorance by using it. Islam is not a pacifist religion, but wantonly killing people is condemned like it is in all religions (aside from lunatic fringe cults).
PureX
Veteran Member
To "believe" is a choice. And what we choose to "believe in" is likewise, a choice. And we are responsible for those choices. No one else. No one can reach into our heads and control our brains and make us believe, or not believe, anything. And no one can make us "believe in" anything so wildly, and so irrationally, that we could choose to torture or kill someone else.
Stop blaming religion for the insanity people choose to engage in, in it's name. Put the blame where it belongs: on those who willingly chose to commit these acts.