Teacher Beheaded near Paris

[Nakosis]

You're missing the point.

Beliefs inform actions.
He did what he did, because of what he believes religious. Just like the millions of other jihadists.
Just like with the witch burnings back in the day by christians.

I agree these people are deranged and delusional. Doesn't change what I said.
His beliefs drove him to this action.

I repeat my question: do you think he would have done this if he weren't a radical muslim?
I'll go ahead and assume that your answer is "no".

If the answer is "yes", then please explain. And perhaps give an example of a non-muslim beheading someone while screaming "allahu akbar" as punishment / revenge for "insulting" Mohamed .

Yes, you can condemn his beliefs. That doesn't mean the Koran or Muhammad or Muslims, in general, are accountable.

Some person taught them this. Someone taught them that this is what God wanted of them. That person is likely still alive and filling the heads of others with the same beliefs.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Put the blame where it belongs: on those who willingly chose to commit these acts.

We are. It's singling out these passages from "holy" books that command and permit such violence.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Some person taught them this. Someone taught them that this is what God wanted of them. That person is likely still alive and filling the heads of others with the same beliefs.

Who learned it from someone, who learned it from someone, who learned it from someone who learned it after reading it in the Quran.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

WikiIslam is an Islam bashing site with a lot of bs on it. That is not a reputable source.

I didn't get my intel from there. It's just the first that popped up when I looked it up to link it here. I'm not familiar with the site.

I just know that it's a quote that is frequently given, while being misrepresented.
It's not saying what it is pretended to be saying. There's context there, which makes it clear that it isn't saying what many people claim it is saying.

It is presented as if it is some absolute. But it's not. It's nuanced. And it also heavily relies on what is meant exactly by an "innocent" person.

In the eyes of a muslim, especially in the eyes of a fundamentalist who doesn't shy away from "righteous violence", a non-believer who insults the prophet, is anything but innocent. In fact, to many radicals, merely being a non-believer already disqualifies you as being innocent. Or even only being the "wrong kind" of muslim.

 

[Nakosis]

Who learned it from someone, who learned it from someone, who learned it from someone who learned it after reading it in the Quran.

IMO, there is more to our beliefs than what is written in Holy books.

Just by reading something gives no guarantee that you've understood what the author was trying to convey.

 

[ChristineM]

Wow!

Yes, I was just thinking this. It is not so much the religion as the religious leaders who teach this garbage. Maybe they use the Koran and Muhammad as props, but it's the people teaching this is God will who need to be found out and condemned.

We can condemn the act but someone filled their head with this. I don't think we can justify freedom of religion where this is being taught.

The message is being taught straight from the holy books.

 

[Mindmaster]

A man wielding a large knife attacked and beheaded a teacher near Paris. The teacher had shown caricatures of Mohammad in the classroom.

Can everyone agree that beheading someone for a caricature, even of Mohammad, is unreasonable and is to be condemned?

Islam remains very clear on the sanctity of life for non-combatants. However, in this case France is suffering from its weak vetting of refugees. There is really nothing for us or anyone else to do about it until they fix their process.

There is Islam the religion and Islam the politics and often they line up, but on this issue I am pretty sure mainline Muslims would reject this action. The political Islam is very much on constant Jihad and it's not really reflective of the beliefs of the normal people.

 

[ChristineM]

Exactly. I spend my childhood hating myself and gays and trans people, not because of what some fire and brimstone baptist pastor was saying, but because it was in the Bible. It's very clear that it considers homosexuality is a capital crime, "yes I know, for the Bible tells me so." Then you add the fire and brimstone baptist pastor and the teachings fester and metastasize.
(We also tend to forget many of the more unsavory ones, such as how Christianity too actually does instruct women to cover up, and it's OT that rebellious kids are to be killed).
These extremist ideas don't materialize out of a vacuum. They have a source. And that source is so very frequently and typically the religion itself.

The teaching of hatred of difference runs deep in religion.

 

[Secret Chief]

I condemn it.

ALL religions have such violent teachings and violent histories. The first suicide bombers were Buddhist (in Sri Lanka).

So what violent teachings are there in Buddhism? Or in Jainism?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Yes, you can condemn his beliefs. That doesn't mean the Koran or Muhammad or Muslims, in general, are accountable.

Did I say they were?

Some person taught them this. Someone taught them that this is what God wanted of them. That person is likely still alive and filling the heads of others with the same beliefs.

And that person waves a quran around to make his points.
If the book was unambiguous, stuff like this wouldn't happen.

Again, it interests me not what the "original meaning" was. It interests me not what some moderate believes the "correct interpretation" is. I have no emotional investment in making the book or religion look good. Neither to I have an emotional investment in making it look bad.

What I care about, is what happens in practice, in the real world.
And what I see, is that in every country where "shariah" is implemented.. brutality, barbarism, gruesome oppression, human rights violations, bad treatment of women,... are the norm rather then the exception.

What I see, is enormous numbers of radical muslims that do things like in the OP, or sympathize with it.

Today, christians are sold as the new peace and love hippies and "love one another" etc. And while I know of a LOT of christians that are instead pretty hateful and bigotted, we don't see the type of barbarism and brutality as we see in the islamic world. But people seem to have forgotten who the christians of the past were pretty much the same as these jihadi's are today in terms of barbaric and brutal.

Christianity throughout the ages has accomodated for extremes ranging from "peace and love for everyone" to "BURN THE HERETIC / HOMOSEXUAL / BLASPHEMER!!!".

Islam is no different.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

IMO, there is more to our beliefs than what is written in Holy books.

Just by reading something gives no guarantee that you've understood what the author was trying to convey.

True. But it's also true that it cannot be verified who is correct. Is their interpretation correct? They would say no. You have no way to definitely say otherwise.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The teaching of hatred of difference runs deep in religion.

And it starts with words printed on onion skin paper (at least for some of us, anyways).

 

[Jainarayan]

You're missing the point.

Beliefs inform actions.
He did what he did, because of what he believes religious. Just like the millions of other jihadists.
Just like with the witch burnings back in the day by christians.

I’m not missing any point. I could justify killing based on my beliefs but I’m not deluded or deranged. They all warp and twist their scriptures to their own ends. I can use a chainsaw to cut wood but I could also use it to cut off someone’s head.

His beliefs drove him to this action.

His beliefs about his religion, that his religion sanctions it.

I repeat my question: do you think he would have done this if he weren't a radical muslim?
I'll go ahead and assume that your answer is "no".

Of course he wouldn’t. Why would you think otherwise? Why would I think otherwise?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

IMO, there is more to our beliefs than what is written in Holy books.

Just by reading something gives no guarantee that you've understood what the author was trying to convey.

It's almost as if people are better of to no "just believe" things, no matter where they come from.
Almost....

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I’m not missing any point. I could justify killing based on my beliefs but I’m not deluded or deranged. They all warp and twist their scriptures to their own ends.

"their own ends"?

What, you think that this is something the guy just enjoyed doing because he felt like killing someone today?
Please explain here... what possible motivations could the dude have had aside from his religious beliefs to do what he did?

I can use a chainsaw to cut wood but I could also use it to cut off someone’s head.

Ok? So?

His beliefs about his religion, that his religion sanctions it.

You succesfully repeated what I just stated, albeit needlessly confusing.

Again: his actions were informed by his religious beliefs.
If he wouldn't have had radical islamist beliefs, he wouldn't have done this. True or false?

Of course he wouldn’t. Why would you think otherwise? Why would I think otherwise?

So then you agree that his religious beliefs informed this action.....
Then what are you arguing about?

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

FYI

If Anyone Slew a Person (Qur'an 5:32) - WikiIslam

5:32 doesn't say what you think it says, or what apologists like to pretend it says.

Very interesting. A good one to pull out for those times when Quranic apologists start in with the "well you have to take everything in context" bit. Here the context works against what they would otherwise like to have us take away from the passage.

 

[Jainarayan]

"their own ends"?

What, you think that this is something the guy just enjoyed doing because he felt like killing someone today?
Please explain here... what possible motivations could the dude have had aside from his religious beliefs to do what he did?

That’s exactly what I mean... his warped and twisted beliefs. To that end, to fulfill his warped and twisted beliefs.

Ok? So?

That any tool can be used incorrectly, or for good or for evil.

You succesfully repeated what I just stated, albeit needlessly confusing.

Again: his actions were informed by his religious beliefs.
If he wouldn't have had radical islamist beliefs, he wouldn't have done this. True or false?

No, what he thinks his religion requires.

So then you agree that his religious beliefs informed this action.....

No, what he thinks his religion requires. His religion doesn’t require that he believe it.

 

[ecco]

A man wielding a large knife attacked and beheaded a teacher near Paris. The teacher had shown caricatures of Mohammad in the classroom.

He was just defending his God in the hope of sitting next to Him for a brief moment in time.

 

[Nakosis]

It's almost as if people are better of to no "just believe" things, no matter where they come from.
Almost....

Well, that's me. Unfortunately, I don't run things.

 

[Nakosis]

True. But it's also true that it cannot be verified who is correct. Is their interpretation correct? They would say no. You have no way to definitely say otherwise.

I say the results. The fruits of what is being taught is enough to condemn.