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Teacher Beheaded near Paris

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by Polymath257, Oct 16, 2020.

  1. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    I have done my best to read through all the posts up till now and I have not seen mention about this teacher or his name. I have read lots of posts about Islam....... but....
    ..........Have I missed a post that offered thoughts or prayers for Samuel Paty and his family?

    I'm doing my best to find out if he was married, or had children, and I think the whole dreadful incident is horrific.

    Yes! Absolutely!
    Clearly, teachers in middle schools have been instructed to run this kind of debate about 'Free-Speech' and clearly part of the lesson plan was to show a picture of a naked Muhammad for the 13yr old pupils to consider.

    But so far no media that I have accessed has thought it right to show such an image.

    Have you seen the image?
     
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  2. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    Which is the path that eventually leads to lopping heads off. Because upfront others are wrong and my ways are correct.
     
  3. dad

    dad Undefeated

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    Looking to what Jesus said will never lead to that. When He comes back, after this age of grace and opportunity to repent is over, He will take care of the wicked Himself. Then in the new wold there is no more killing or wars, so never will believers be expected or asked to do anything like that.
     
  4. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Well said!
    Like I wrote before, this was a 'whole dreadful incident'.!!
    Absolutely!

    Do you think that this lesson was part of the curriculum for 13 year old middle-school children? If so I hope that Samuel Paty's family are compensated hugely for his tragic murder.

    Have you seen this picture of naked Muhammad? No media organisation has thought fit to show it?
     
  5. dad

    dad Undefeated

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    No, I haven't seen it. I tend to avoid inciteful images, and would not have, for example gone to see the vault of pee exhibition years ago.
    3 religious artworks that caused a scandal | Artsper Magazine

    I was angered by seeing John Lennon's wife tearing up bible pages for example.

    YOKO ONO MISFIRES

    I can imagine Muslims would feel something similar when they see their beliefs attacked openly and blasphemed.

    Teachers may have some leeway in how they present or teach some subjects. I am not sure the school is wholly responsible for a beheading by someone that didn't like it.
     
  6. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    Except it has. The Church and Christians have a long history of violence and brutality. Such as the Inquisitions. Witch trials. Killing Jews. Killing Muslims. Killing Christians.
    The only one responsible is the one who committed the murder.
     
  7. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    I understand.......... agreed.

    No.
    Schools are supposed to have agreed Lesson-Plans for delivery to pupils. The examinations draw questions from the Lesson material.

    Teachers should stick to Lesson plans for the accurate delivery of teaching to pupils.

    Firstly, the Murderer is a terrorist and killer........ And.....

    If this lesson was not in the curriculum then the school should be responsible for putting the teacher in danger.

    If this lesson WAS in the lesson plan then the government's education dept should be responsible for putting the teacher in danger.
     
  8. Hellbound Serpiente

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    Wow, this topic grew quickly! Although I didn’t wanted to carry on the discussion mostly because I agree with Shadow Wolf and TagliatelliMonster for most part, I’ll give my thoughts just out of sake of integrity and keeping my words.

    Let me just start with giving my two cents about that WikiIslam link’s explanation of the Qur’anic verse:


    WikiIslam never proved the verse is out of context. All they did was talk about personal interpretation of certain individuals and what Muslims do, and they are extremely misleading and bias throughout the article. Let me give my personal critique. To quote them:


    Another blatant lie from WikiIslam [right along with their lie about Allah being moon god]. See, the Qur’an never says that those who merely dispute Islam are mischief makers. It only says that Allah Knows who the mischievous ones are. That doesn’t necessarily mean that everyone who merely disputes Islam is a mischief maker, rather some individual who disputes are intending to cause “mischief” in the land. See, not all those who disputes regarding 2nd amendments are liberal, but God surely who of those who are liberals among those who dispute regarding 2nd amendment. Simple.

    Some people intentionally lie and deceive in order to create dissension, turmoil amongst the Muslim nation and mislead them to their destruction. They are basically like real life Joker, who intentionally lie and deceive to cause chaos in Gotham. And the few verses backs me up on that, this is what 3:69 says:

    Surah Ali 'Imran 3:69 Some of the People of the Book wish to mislead you ˹believers˺. They mislead none but themselves, yet they fail to perceive it.

    Seriously, man, WikiIslam is a bias source with their own Islamophobic narrative heavily invested. We should check all thing critically. Here’s another:

    Another blatant lie. Just because certain “hadith” [bunch of unverified hearsays passed on for CENTURY that are most likely false/distorted and there’s no way to confirm it] talks about only killing of Muslim is equivalent to killing humanity, that means that this doesn’t including innocent non-Muslim. It simply means Kathir was addressing specifically about the innocent Muslim in that specific stance. It’s a “either/or” fallacy. If I say to you, that harming innocent women is evil, does that necessarily mean that I am excluding children, old people, animal, men etc. etc. etc.? No. It simply means that in this specific stance, my attention is solely directed toward innocent women, and yes, harming innocent children, old people, animals, men etc is also evil.

    Oh and btw, they later added the part where Ibn Kathir was including all people, AFTER making a misleading comment that the verse “wasn’t universally interpreted in that way.” Can’t you see the bias in their narrative?

    There’s two logical error and/or outright lies, and personal bias and contradiction I showed in a single sitting, and I haven’t read most of the article you linked.

    Anyway, further critic regarding the article. They are using Tafsir, i.e. personal opinion, personal interpretation, personal understanding of certain individual, who came centuries after the death of the prophet S.A.W., and is using “hadiths” to form his personal opinion about the verse.

    The thing about hadith is that, it is unreliable. If the childhood game of telephone [or Chinese whispers] have taught us one thing, it is that the original message gets distorted as it gets passed on. What starts off as a mole, ends up become a molehill as it gets twisted and blown completely out of proportion as it gets passed on. Now, this so-called “hadiths” [sayings of the prophet S.A.W.] started CENTURIES after his death, so there’s no way to confirm if Prophet really said that and/or did that. Then on top of that, they are getting passed on for a very, VERY long time. Simple logic tells us that they are most likely distorted and unreliable. Would it make sense if I use that as “evidence”?

    The entire article is about what about personal opinions and interpretation of Ibn Kathir and/or some other individual and how they view the verse as, and about what muslims and muslim community does. Again, this doesn’t prove the verse is out of context. In fact they did quite the opposite. They actually backed up that the verse is talking about all people when they talked about the instance where Uthman paraphrased the verse to convinces an ally not to fight the besiegers by citing verse 5:32.

    As the saying goes --- Even the devil quotes scripture. WikiIslam constant displaying of personal opinions of certain people doesn’t prove the verse is out of context.
     
  9. Hellbound Serpiente

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    Out of ignorance and arrogance of Muslims, yes it does. But this is all because their own inherent, faulty nature. Such people have inherent bloodlust, and use anything as an excuse as an outlet to materialize their inner negativity, they just need an excuse.

    In this case, "Islam" is just a convenient catalyst. They just use it to project their own unhealthy, negative feelings and desires, and as an outlet to practice their personal demons.

    The functions of the two doesn't matter. My point is, those who are prone to violence, will use anything as a pretext to practice violence. Their nature is the primary cause.
     
    #169 Hellbound Serpiente, Oct 19, 2020 at 9:58 AM
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2020 at 10:59 AM
  10. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Yes. And God was not behind it. Deuteronomy 32:4-5. Esp.note verse 5.
     
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  11. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

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    I'm not buying that at all.
    There are more then enough examples of people who were otherwise normal decent people who turned into monsters after a few years of radicalizing under the influence of fundamentalist islam. These people do not fit that explanation at all.

    The idea also seems to hint that these people don't REALLY believe what they claim to believe religiously. That also, does not seem to fit reality.

    I don't think the people you describe here, for example, would be so willing to go on suicide missions.

    It matters a great deal, because it exposed the false equivocation.


    More then enough examples to demonstrate the contrary.
     
  12. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    At the time of M. Paty"s funeral i offer one article that highlights the feeling of liberté, égalité, fraternité et laïcité

    Note the recent but as yet unofficial addition of laïcité (secularism) to the french motto is important to the french psyche

    The article is from a french newspaper printed in english.

    For the untranslated word "lycées" read 'high schools and colleges'

    A "hommage national" is a 'public state funeral'

    Religious cartoons planned as France honours Samuel Paty
     
    #172 ChristineM, Oct 21, 2020 at 11:14 AM
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2020 at 11:20 AM
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  13. Tambourine

    Tambourine Radical Felinist

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    What is a "religionist"?
     
  14. Tambourine

    Tambourine Radical Felinist

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    So basically your killer argument here is your lack of imagination.
     
  15. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

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    I prefer facts over imagination.
     
  16. Hellbound Serpiente

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    TagliatelliMonster, while I agree with you to some extent, I think both you and Shadow Wolf are making a lot of assumptions and jumping to conclusions. I didn't wanted to start the discussion here because I didn't want our discussion to overshadow the tragedy of the teacher and make people forget about the original intents of the topic, but I'll give some answers

    How can you say that for sure? Was Bin Laden's and Salah Abdeslam's life was thoroughly monitored [before they became notorious] which made it clear they were devoid of cruelty and other evils?

    We can't possibly know that for sure. During my field days, I personally came across a lot of people who were seemingly decent and respected individuals but behind the curtains, they are downright sociopaths, psychopaths, pedophiles. They just clever enough to cover their tracks, keep up a false facade and got away with their crimes.

    What do you think about individuals like Jimmy Savile, Carl Herold and many, MANY other people who were seemingly upstanding members of society but turned out to be monsters when they the truth about their monstrosity came to light which they cleverly kept a secret for a long, LONG time? Who is to say Bin Laden and Salah weren't like these guys? Really, how can you ascertain that for sure?

    Many sociopaths and hardened criminals also starts off with minor crimes. What you talked about is possible symptoms of sociopathy.

    According to Belgian newspaper, Le Derniere Heure, Salah burnt down the family home at the age of 14. And he also reportedly liked to frequent gay bars. Homosexuality is a prohibited in Islam. Now, how can use him as an example of becoming a monster due to Islam when he was already indulging in so many evils strictly prohibited by Islam? And who is to say that other seemingly decent people are unlike him?
     
  17. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

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    As it concerns bin laden, sure, I have my intel only from documentaries and interviews with people that knew him before he became a radical terrorist, before he went to afghanistan to fight the soviets.

    As for Abdeslam, I knew the dude personally.
    Not very well, but well enough. He certainly wasn't a saint, but then again who is... he wasn't that different from me. He went out to bars, smoked weed, enjoyed hitting on girls,... Pretty much the same things we all did back then.

    That he would go on to become a serial killer as an islamist terrorist, is something I never expected.

    Sounds like you are the one who's making assumptions then... you assume that they already were psychopaths, eventhough there's no evidence for it.

    Sure, he could have been a "closet" psychopathic killer. I have no reason to believe that he was.
    In fact, I have quite some reason to believe he wasn't. Eventhough he was kind of a macho, he was also quite sensitive and emotional in my experience. Not exactly attributes of a psychopath.

    You can assume they were if you want.

    What I talk about is pretty standard behavior for youngsters in such neighbourhoods.

    Never heard about burning down the house.
    As for his visits to gay bars, most likely he was gauging them looking for place to stage terrorist attacks.
    Him being gay would surprise me even more then him having become a terrorist...........



    In any case, ever heared the phrase: "Good people do good things and bad people do bad things. For good people to do bad things, that takes religion"

    It's a cliché stereotype and it certainly isn't universal, covering all instances.
    But it's a cliché stereotype for a reason.

    I think there really is no doubt that religion absolutely has the power to poison the mind to the point of doing absolutely horrific things, that one wouldn't even have nightmares about if it weren't for the religious beliefs.
     
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