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Supporting Muslims as members of our communities

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I'm just saying you got a lot of gall to point a finger and you may find three more pointing back at you.

Capitalism has serious issues. Christianity has serious issues. As an individual, I'm free to criticize all of them, and I do. It doesn't take any gall at all. :)
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Many will be aware of a large number of Muslims being shot in mosques last Friday in New Zealand. Muslims in two mosques located within Christchurch were targeted. They were unarmed and gathered together peacefully for worship. 49 were killed and over 40 were injured from gunshot wounds. The attack had been planned and perpetrated by a 28 year old Australian National who had set up base in the city I live. He actually lived just down the road from me. There appears to have been at least two other accomplices and police are continuing their investigations.

I am in shock as are many in my community. Yesterday community leaders met together with Muslim leaders to discuss how we can support our Muslim community. I was invited as I’m currently the chairman of our cities interfaith council a role which I feel largely unworthy to fulfill.

Many Muslims were feeling unsafe in our communities. The police investigation is ongoing and it is unclear if all perpetrators and accomplices are in custody. In the interim there are to be no meetings in mosques for safety reasons. As an outpouring of support many are approaching Muslim neighbours and associates with gifts and expressions of love and support. Most New Zealanders are appalled by the actions of these far right terrorists. At the meeting yesterday I mostly listened to the concerns of others as we collectively tried to find our way forward.

I’m wanting to discuss and reflect on the journey towards pulling together as a multicultural and multifaith community to support our brothers and sisters in the wake of an act of terrorism and hate. I also wanted to share my personal journey through this horrific time. Thanks for taking the time to read my OP and consider a topic that really affects each and everyone of us.

As it happened: 49 killed, 48 injured in Christchurch terror attack

I am no hindutva fundamentalist. May I request your opinion on the following.

2019 Pulwama attack - Wikipedia
 

Earthling

David Henson
Capitalism has serious issues. Christianity has serious issues. As an individual, I'm free to criticize all of them, and I do. It doesn't take any gall at all. :)

Oh, please, I'm all with you when you criticize, it's only when you start to insist upon reform, especially in accordance with social mores of the time that I say "Hold on there, fellow!" ;)
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Oh, please, I'm all with you when you criticize, it's only when you start to insist upon reform, especially in accordance with social mores of the time that I say "Hold on there, fellow!" ;)

We live in serious times, and these are serious issues. I wish the world wasn't so violent and fragile. But it is, and every day people are suffering from these bad ideas in Islam. So I'm not going to "hold on". Western ideas aren't perfect, but they are the best we have, and we don't have a lot of time to let things play out without intervention.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Perhaps. Is Buddhism misogynistic? Is it theocratic? Is it anti-semetic? Is it homophobic?
It was slightly misogynistic, but Buddha accepted 'Bhikkhunis' later. It is not theocratic. It is not anti-anything. India did not have much contacts with Semites at that time, so no question of being anti-Semitic. It is not homophobic.
We live in serious times, and these are serious issues. I wish the world wasn't so violent and fragile. But it is, and every day people are suffering from these bad ideas in Islam. So I'm not going to "hold on". Western ideas aren't perfect, but they are the best we have, and we don't have a lot of time to let things play out without intervention.
Even Eastern ideas are good. Here in India, we have/always had people from all religions living together peacefully. Islamic extremism is comparatively a new thing here. So, why limit good ideas only to West?
 
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Earthling

David Henson
We live in serious times, and these are serious issues. I wish the world wasn't so violent and fragile. But it is, and every day people are suffering from these bad ideas in Islam. So I'm not going to "hold on". Western ideas aren't perfect, but they are the best we have, and we don't have a lot of time to let things play out without intervention.

Oh, yes . . . the Westerners need to kick up world domination yet another notch so those infidels can stop suffering from their bad ideas. Unless . . . of course they get fed up with us and start fighting back. Start bombing our cities and killing our children. Then you might wake the hell up.
 

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
OIC are not the "leaders" of the Muslim world

Of course they aren't. They're just a very influential group of political leaders who happen to be mostly from Muslim-majority countries banding together to exert their religious beliefs on others.

The OIC has in the past attempted to have the UN pass what amounts to a global blasphemy law; banning criticism of Islam.


Oh, please, I'm all with you when you criticize, it's only when you start to insist upon reform, especially in accordance with social mores of the time that I say "Hold on there, fellow!" ;)

Could you please tell us why you're so insistent people should not be allowed to voice the opinion that a religion you probably view as false anyway should be subject to reform?
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
It was slightly misogynistic, but Buddha accepted 'Bhikkhunis' later. It is not theocratic. It is not anti-anything. India did not have much contacts with Semites at that time, so no question of being anti-Semitic. It is not homophobic.Even Eastern ideas are good. Here in India, we have/always had people from all religions living together peacefully. Islamic extremism is comparatively a new thing here. So, why limit good ideas only to West?

I'm not at all - personally, I'm positively influenced by Buddhism and Taoism.
 

Earthling

David Henson
Could you please tell us why you're so insistent people should not be allowed to voice the opinion that a religion you probably view as false anyway should be subject to reform?

I thought that I had made that painfully obvious. Everyone should be allowed to voice their opinion. If you think Islam is dangerous, by all means, shout it from the rooftops. But don't call out for their reform because it's all subjective, and someone will make the same judgement on you. If we expect to be allowed to voice an opinion then why shouldn't they be allowed the same?

So, maybe you need the reforming, huh? How do you like that? Let's see . . . where should we start. Well, Jehovah God is going to destroy the United Nations, who will first destroy false religion, or the Harlot, Babylon the Great. So . . . where do we fit in?

Revelation 17:12-13, Revelation 17:16
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
And I'm sick of Pagans, LGBTs, Jews, Buddhists, atheists etc all working to silence legitimate criticism of a religion which is, where its adherents are in a majority, almost uniformly an existential threat to these demographics and their ability to worship/live freely.

LGBTs: 'Don't be Islamophobic, show tolerance and love!'

The Muslim response: *Indulges in gay indoctrination/propaganda myths* 'Don't teach my kids that gay people exist!'
Who said I had a problem with legitimate criticism? I'm not referring to that.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Considering how much of an ideological threat Islam & Islamism are to paths like yours and mine, yes. I would say it's a problem.
I'm not threatened by Islam. I live in America in a city with a large Muslim population. They don't bother me or others. The problem where I live are fundie Christians pushing their religion on everyone. This is the Midwest, after all, if you're familiar with it. It's similar to the American South. There's tons of them just on this board and they outnumber the Muslim posters here. Are there lots of Muslims who threaten your peace where you live?
 

Firemorphic

Activist Membrane
Defenders of Islam like to paint this set ideas as if they are somehow simultaneously defensible

What have I got to defend? I'm trying to understand what your condemning and why you think this vague object of discussion needs a forced reformation. Again, you speak in the most vaguest terms with the largest broad strokes that you could be discussing anything.

I'll grant you that Islamic thinking has many, many variations.

Sure, I wouldn't disagree with that.

To rewrite my post again:

Reform who? and who's Islam? from what? and to what? You speak on vague authoritative terms that could be applied to anything someone doesn't like.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
But don't call out for their reform because it's all subjective, and someone will make the same judgement on you

I appreciate you finally saying this. It means there is no point in discussing any aspect of morality with you, because moral relativism is fundamentally an unfalsifiable stance.
 

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
Oh, please, I'm all with you when you criticize, it's only when you start to insist upon reform, especially in accordance with social mores of the time that I say "Hold on there, fellow!" ;)

Is there a better standard than current social mores which are significantly more enlightened than the social mores of 2 millennia ago captured in scripture?


I thought that I had made that painfully obvious. Everyone should be allowed to voice their opinion. If you think Islam is dangerous, by all means, shout it from the rooftops. But don't call out for their reform because it's all subjective, and someone will make the same judgement on you. If we expect to be allowed to voice an opinion then why shouldn't they be allowed the same?

I don't follow. You're telling me that people should be allowed to voice their opinion but you don't want people voicing the opinion that a backward religion should reform? Do you want people to voice their opinions or don't you?

Also, why should the fact that other people will make the same claim on us prevent us from calling for other faiths to reform and become more civilised?


So, maybe you need the reforming, huh? How do you like that?

Am I supposed to be bothered by this? You can call for my religion to reform all you want and I won't once raise a complaint about it, unlike you. You've got the problem of finding a centralised dogma all Hellenists follow that needs to be reformed, so good luck there. That aside, the fact remains Hellenism is significantly more benign than Islam is. Or the dogma of the Watchtower, for that matter.

Also you subscribe moral authority to an organisation that covers up child abuse while defending from criticism a religion that encourages the mutilation and murder of those accused of 'blasphemy' or apostasy. You're not exactly on the moral high ground here.


Let's see . . . where should we start. Well, Jehovah God is going to destroy the United Nations, who will first destroy false religion, or the Harlot, Babylon the Great. So . . . where do we fit in?

Revelation 17:12-13, Revelation 17:16

I don't hold your scripture to have any weight so this is about as effective as me threatening/warning you with anything based on the Lord of the Rings. You're also one of a deliriously large number of denominations, sects & cults that believes it has the One True Way so odds are you'll be part of this 'false religion' you keep saying will be destroyed.

Preaching is against forum rules, so be careful ;)
 

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
I'm not threatened by Islam. I live in America in a city with a large Muslim population. They don't bother me or others. The problem where I live are fundie Christians pushing their religion on everyone. This is the Midwest, after all, if you're familiar with it. It's similar to the American South. There's tons of them just on this board and they outnumber the Muslim posters here. Are there lots of Muslims who threaten your peace where you live?

That's great. Honestly!

But what about the many other LGBT who are threatened by Islam? What about LGBT Muslims in Islamic countries who risk imprisonment or even murder for their sexuality? What about gay Chechens who have been subjected to concentration camps for the past couple of years? What about LGBTs (including LGBT Muslims) in England who are threatened with erasure because homophobic Muslims are afraid they won't be able to indoctrinate their kids to hate if they learn gay people exist - and are actively campaigning to stop equality lessons being taught in schools?
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
Don't the Hellenists have along history of pedophilia??
 

sooda

Veteran Member
That's great. Honestly!

But what about the many other LGBT who are threatened by Islam? What about LGBT Muslims in Islamic countries who risk imprisonment or even murder for their sexuality? What about gay Chechens who have been subjected to concentration camps for the past couple of years? What about LGBTs (including LGBT Muslims) in England who are threatened with erasure because homophobic Muslims are afraid they won't be able to indoctrinate their kids to hate if they learn gay people exist - and are actively campaigning to stop equality lessons being taught in schools?


Saudi Arabia: 425 cases of sex-reassignment in 27 years | ILGA
The International Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans and Intersex Association | ILGAsaudi-arabia-425-cases-of-sex-reassignment-in-27...
1- In Saudi Arabia, only intersex individuals are allowed to undergo sex-reassignment process. According to a decree by the Saudi Ministry of Health -issued in May 2011-, all hospitals and medical centers can only perform sex-correction precedes only after the cases are confirmed by the "Medical Treatment Office" of the Health Ministry.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
That's great. Honestly!

But what about the many other LGBT who are threatened by Islam? What about LGBT Muslims in Islamic countries who risk imprisonment or even murder for their sexuality? What about gay Chechens who have been subjected to concentration camps for the past couple of years? What about LGBTs (including LGBT Muslims) in England who are threatened with erasure because homophobic Muslims are afraid they won't be able to indoctrinate their kids to hate if they learn gay people exist - and are actively campaigning to stop equality lessons being taught in schools?
I hope those situations change and saner religious interpretations prevail.
 
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