Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side'

[michel]

But the point of the study isn`t to say that religion makes us immoral.
The point is to show that religion doesn`t make us moral.

It`s essentially to counter the popular Christian notion that religion = morality and non-religion = immorality.

As I said before, it does this well.

I don't think there has ever been any doubt doubt that "Religion=Morality and non-religion=immorality" is totally flawed.

Just look at some of our own forum members as a microcosm of society. I am not implying that we have immoral religious members - but I am pretty certain that we can boast extremely moral atheists.

I think that people will be moral or immoral regardless of belonging to a faith or not belonging.

 

[linwood]

I don't think there has ever been any doubt doubt that "Religion=Morality and non-religion=immorality" is totally flawed.

Just look at some of our own forum members as a microcosm of society. I am not implying that we have immoral religious members - but I am pretty certain that we can boast extremely moral atheists.

I think that people will be moral or immoral regardless of belonging to a faith or not belonging.

Oh there`s doubt Michel and it exists right here on RF.
Just run a search for "A Question to Atheists" or "Atheist Morality"and you`ll find it.

 

[lilithu]

As far as humanistic ethics being based upon Judeo-Christian ethics I think I would have to split hairs.
I think the fact that the humanist movement spends a great deal of it`s time countering the moral underpinnings of Christianity tells a different story.
Simply because Humanism and Christianity share some ethical viewpoints doesn`t mean one came from the other.
Especially considering the ultimate moral compass for the two different groups are worlds apart.
Christianity puts God before humanity.
Humanisim is all about the human condition and what can be done to improve it.
Humanism puts man before anything.

Perhaps if Jayhawker Soule is reading this thread he can weigh in on this and his word may carry more weight with you than mine. Humanism starts with the Jewish tradition. It is Judaism that first puts forth the idea that justice matters, that even kings can be accused by peasants in the name of justice. Before then, the mindset was "might makes right." Judaism is based on the idea of a covenant with God. That means both sides agree to a set of promises and both sides are bound by that agreement. Humans can hold even God to task and the Jewish scriptures are replete with examples of this from Abraham to Job. It may seem like nothing now by 21st century standards, but these ideas were revolutionary at the time. Yes, God is still in the picture, but human suffering and human needs are the measure by which we judge whether justice has been served.

Now I'm not saying that if it weren't for Judaism these humanist ideas would have never evolved. I'd like to think they would have anyway because I like to think they're good ethics, the right ethics. But if you trace the development of western humanist thought from the very first thinkers who can be considered "humanists" you can see how their ethics comes directly out of the Judeo-Christian tradition. In fact, Nietzsche points this out in a blistering critique. He questions the validity of Christian ethics, where even the weak are protected, and contrasts it to Viking ethics, where the strongest determine what is "right" and what is "wrong."

Especially considering the ultimate moral compass for the two different groups are worlds apart.
Christianity puts God before humanity.
Humanisim is all about the human condition and what can be done to improve it.
Humanism puts man before anything.

You're not familiar with liberation theology, are you? Yes, Christianity can put God before humanity. But that is true of any ideology when taken too far, from utilitarianism to marxism to capitalism. From my perspective, humanism is a way of looking at the world that transcends the theist/non-theist dichotomy. I am a theist AND a humanist. I do not see the two as necessarily at odds with each other. Whereas one could be an atheist and not be a humanist; the two are not necessarily linked.

I agree with Lilithu that humanism is based on Judeo Christian values, especially the notion of loving your neighbor. But I also think that humanism is based equally or even moreso on ancient Greek values.

Well, Christianity is as much influenced by Greek thought as it is by Hebrew thought. For example, the Christian notion that God is perfect and unchanging comes from the Greeks, who were so in love with abstract ideals. Historically, the Jews were too pragmatic to engage in that kind of navel-gazing. So anyway, I agree with you about the Greek influence.

 

[MdmSzdWhtGuy]

I believe if people truely had God on their sides than our country would be a much better place.But today we have people who don't want God totally on their side.People want to be "Godly" only on Sundays...and even then only during church.People have often asked "where was God on Sep. 11,2001," or maybe "where was God when hurricane Katrina hit?"I can't tell you where he was but I can tell you where he wasn't.He wasn't in our schools,we kicked him out the same time we did prayer.He wasn't in our court system,we threw him out along with the Ten Commandments.He's not in our homes anymore,MTV replaced God a few years ago.I could go on and on and on.I think if people were truely devoted to God than our crime rate and everything else you listed would be in a lot better shape.But we're not.Please reply! :jam:

Wow.

Where was God on Sept. 11? Depends upon who you ask . . . a significant portion of the world's population beleive that God/Allah (same guy, hate to break it to you) was directing Mohammad Atta and company to fly planes into the largest buildings built by the infidels (that's you and me).

Where was God during Katrina? Again, is going to depend upon who you ask. I have heard a significant amount of evangelists saying that God was directing the huricane to hit New Orleans because of the high level of immorality in that southern city of sin. (for the love of criminy, women show their breasts in exchange for beads down there, perish the thought).

A person who beleives, with a good deal of reason behind it, that religion has done FAR more harm than good throughout human history would tell reply to the "where was God?" question by saying he was in the same spot he has always been. If God was an imaginary friend for adults on Sept. 10, then he probably remained so on Sept. 11. Same with Katrina. Same with Pompei, same with the Great Chicago Fire, same with the tsunami in Asia earlier this year, same with 3 Mile Island, and the same with every other natural or man made disaster in history.

You then go through a long diatribe about all the places where God has been kicked out. School, Courts, etc. . . I assume, of course, you are only referring to the Judeo-Christian God, a.k.a. Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah, The Lord, I Am and so forth. Of course you don't want him, in the way that you perceive him, kicked out of these institutions. But suppose for a minute that some other deity were being forced on you or your kids at school. How long would you sit still for school prayer if we were all praying to Ba'al, or any of the other hundreds of deity's that have existed in human history?

My guess is that if Islamic prayer were forced at your/your kids' school, you would be real quick to throw a screaming fit about school prayer. If Wiccan prayer time were the mandate, how long before you were at a school board meeting?

OK, here is the real tough one, that you simply must digest. It is going to be painful. Not everyone beleives as you do, and this country was founded on the principle that EVERYONE would have the right to practice religion, or not practice religion, as that individual person sees fit.

The only way that overriding principle can exist, is if the government does not endorse any religion. You see, that is kind of in the Constitution. That pesky document which is slowing, tho sadly not stopping, the building of the theocracy that so many evangelists seem to want. Constitution mandates a seperation of church and state. The Courts are representative of the state. Can't have your god in there. Violates the constitution ma'am. If you are referring to public schools, those are run by the government, and paid for with tax dollars, therefore public schools are the state too. Can't have your god in there either. You see, that would also violate the constitution. Constitution of the United States is our founding document, and it is also the supreme law of our land.

You want the freedom to practice your religion as you see fit. Please allow others to do the same.

B.

 

[linwood]

You're not familiar with liberation theology, are you? Yes, Christianity can put God before humanity. But that is true of any ideology when taken too far, from utilitarianism to marxism to capitalism.

Not the ideology of humanism, even theistic humanism.
Once you put the god before the human it is no longer humanism
In fact it is impossible within the ideology of humanism

I would further argue that Christianity as it is commonly practiced is reliant to it`s existence upon it`s very definition.
GOD must come before humanity or it is not Christianity.
This is emphasized again and again throughout any and all Christian and Judaic texts.
Giod is always the most important thing before family, before friends, and before spouses.
Thats what Judeo-Christian ideology is defined by.

Just because one follows some Christian edicts does not make one Christian.
It is the act of putting Christ first before ANYTHING that makes one Christian.

 

[linwood]

I`m sorry somehow I lost the first part of my reply...

Perhaps if Jayhawker Soule is reading this thread he can weigh in on this and his word may carry more weight with you than mine. Humanism starts with the Jewish tradition.

I understand that but we`re speaking on different levels here.
I`ve had discussions and one conference with the Judaic Humanist org in my town for different reasons,.
I`ve learned quite a bit about them and how the ideology came about.
However I myself was a humanist decades before I ever heard the term "Humanist".
My philosophy was in no way influenced by Judaic Humanism.
It was influenced by personal introspection and study.

Now I'm not saying that if it weren't for Judaism these humanist ideas would have never evolved. I'd like to think they would have anyway because I like to think they're good ethics, the right ethics. But if you trace the development of western humanist thought from the very first thinkers who can be considered "humanists" you can see how their ethics comes directly out of the Judeo-Christian tradition.

I won`t argue that, yet I know more than a few humanists who wouldn`t know what I was speaking of if I were to mention the term "Judaic Humanism" .
Humanism to me is simply obvious as it is to many who grasp the label once they`ve discovered it fits their ideology.
Also to state that Judaic law is the foundation of justice doesn`t give any credence to the likes of Hammurabi and those even before him.
Especially when it can be argued with strength that all Judaic law is is a twsit on his and other codes while merely substituting God for the King.

In fact, Nietzsche points this out in a blistering critique. He questions the validity of Christian ethics, where even the weak are protected, and contrasts it to Viking ethics, where the strongest determine what is "right" and what is "wrong."

I still haven`t decided about Nietzsche.
I agree with many of his conclusions but his methods of getting to them often lead me to believe he was a nut.

 

[lilithu]

I understand that but we`re speaking on different levels here.
I`ve had discussions and one conference with the Judaic Humanist org in my town for different reasons,.
I`ve learned quite a bit about them and how the ideology came about.
However I myself was a humanist decades before I ever heard the term "Humanist".
My philosophy was in no way influenced by Judaic Humanism.
It was influenced by personal introspection and study.

Yes, but do you deny that you are a product of your own society? If your society is heavily influenced by Judaic Humanism then you are heavily influenced by Judaic Humanism, even if you never heard of it labeled that way, even if you were never conscious of it.

I still haven't decided about Nietzsche.
I agree with many of his conclusions but his methods of getting to them often lead me to believe he was a nut.

Nietzsche was brilliant in his analysis of the human condition. But I don't care for his ethics, reeally reeeaally don't care for his ethics. But then, that may just be because I'm a product of my Judeo-Christian society. Certainly Nietzsche would say so.

addendum:
I realize that we have strayed off-topic once again. My fault, by bringing up humanism. To bring it back to the OP, what I'm saying is that we are so immersed in Judeo-Christian influences that we're not even aware of it. Even when we reject the outer beliefs, like whether Jesus died for our sins, etc, the very way in which we approach the world is influenced by our Judeo-Christian history. And these influences are both good (humanism) and bad (God is on our side and against our enemies). Yes, I realize that these two views are at odds with each other. That tension has existed in the Jewish and Christian faiths for thousands of years.

 

[lilithu]

Not the ideology of humanism, even theistic humanism.
Once you put the god before the human it is no longer humanism
In fact it is impossible within the ideology of humanism

I agree with you. What I'm saying is that there are forms of Christianity that are humanist. In fact, most of liberal religion is humanist. And there are forms of non-theist philosophies that are not humanist. Obviously, they do not put "God" before humans but some other ideal. As soon as you place anything before human concerns and human agency then it is no longer humanist.

I would further argue that Christianity as it is commonly practiced is reliant to it`s existence upon it`s very definition.
GOD must come before humanity or it is not Christianity.
This is emphasized again and again throughout any and all Christian and Judaic texts.
Giod is always the most important thing before family, before friends, and before spouses.
Thats what Judeo-Christian ideology is defined by.

Just because one follows some Christian edicts does not make one Christian.
It is the act of putting Christ first before ANYTHING that makes one Christian.

What if what God wants is what humans want? What if the two are identical? What if it is humanity's responsibility to fulfill those wants?

I would never try to claim that this view is normative in Christianity, but it has existed as one view of Christianity since the very beginning, and during a few brief moments has even been a dominant view. (The last time was during the Enlightenment.) And, as we already discussed, the humanist view has been a strong voice within Judaism.

 

[linwood]

Yes, but do you deny that you are a product of your own society? If your society is heavily influenced by Judaic Humanism then you are heavily influenced by Judaic Humanism, even if you never heard of it labeled that way, even if you were never conscious of it.

No no denial here in fact in this or some other thread we`ve been discussing I`ve mentioned that I am influenced.
It`s unaviodable and I`m not sure in some cases it is something I`d desire to avoid.
However I`ve had a few experiences that have led me to seriously investigate these influences in me and others who hold my world views.
It`s amazing how many atheists hold cultural intolerances that have no other basis than a patriarchal religion.
Yet these biases are so ingrained within their cultures they cannot see the origins of them even when evidenced.

Nietzsche was brilliant in his analysis of the human condition. But I don't care for his ethics, reeally reeeaally don't care for his ethics.

Agreed

I realize that we have strayed off-topic once again. My fault, by bringing up humanism. To bring it back to the OP, what I'm saying is that we are so immersed in Judeo-Christian influences that we're not even aware of it.

I don`t have a problem with the origins of those influences because as far as I`m concerened they are man made regardless of the lable they`re presented under.

 

[linwood]

What if what God wants is what humans want? What if the two are identical? What if it is humanity's responsibility to fulfill those wants?

I see your point but here we`re back to personal revelation and I`m not able to put any faith in it simply because it occurs to me that God always wants what humans want.
The conflicts aren`t caused by god but by the agenda of the particular humans you`re discussing who are using Gods name.

 

[lilithu]

I don`t have a problem with the origins of those influences because as far as I`m concerened they are man made regardless of the lable they`re presented under.

Agreed.

The conflicts aren`t caused by god but by the agenda of the particular humans you`re discussing who are using Gods name.

Agreed.

 

[Flappycat]

The fact that religion and crime do not show as strong of a correlation on the state level as they do on the national level leads me to believe that the conclusion that there is a strong correlation between crime and religion is bunk. Some areas in the country are clearly more religious than other areas. If religion was the problem, crime would be coming from the religious areas.

Rates of violent crime are actually higher in more "religious" states. However, I blame this on the conservative Christians trying to undermine the public school systems. Teen pregnancy seems more prevalent in more conservative states, but, again, I'm more inclined to blame this on the theo-conservatives trying to keep sex ed out of the schools and trying to outlaw non-reproductive sex and the tools needed for it.

The reason the study had wealth is because it proved what some wanted to believe - religion is the cause of the problems.

The point is that religion doesn't do anything to keep away the ills of society. An absence of an absolutist doctrine in a society would not, as many have ignorantly claimed, lead to an abundance of rape, murders, and robberies as people "run around doing whatever they want to because nothing can happen to them for it since everything is relative then." The thing is, many live under the illusion that atheists have "turned away from God because they hate morality and want to be able to do whatever they want to and get away with it." We know that you don't think this way because you've shown yourself on many occassions to be anything but ignorant. Mind, however, that not all Christians share your views.

I'd also like to point out that, if less religious and assumedly more liberal countries are richer, whatever happened to the liberals "destroying the country's work ethic"? Go ahead and make with the conspiracy theories; I'm in a mood for a good laugh. How has those evil, horrible liberals busily destroying the economies of these godless nations made the people in them wealthier and less inclined to commit crimes? By the way, why hasn't Europe dissolved into anarchy in absence of the death penalty, hmm?

 

[Ceridwen018]

I think we're going about this all wrong. In an effort to try and break this down, I'd like to throw the idea out there that "religion" can't do anything. The people who practice religion, on the other hand, can do many things.

It's obvious that there are many religiously founded societies and charities in the US which do a lot of good. Religion is also commonly used to help people during periods of high psychological stress, such as overcoming addiction, bearing the loss of a loved one, etc. I am sure we all agree that there are religious people out there who are truely moral, and wish nothing but the best for their fellow man.

That said, I think the real issue here is not, "Is religion bad for society?", but, "Are the relative majority of religious people in the US involved with 'immoral' or criminal activity in some way?" with a follow-up of, "Is their religion at all involved in/ the cause of their immoral or criminal activity?" As for my own two cents, I think that religion can be dangerous in certain circumstances. Its a very powerful psychological tool, and many people have killed themselves and others in the past because "God wanted them to", etc.

I would now like to post a list of ways in which I think religion is a current hindrance to society:

1. Dumbing-down our already mediocre education with creationism in schools.
2. Teaching lack of tolerance for other religions
3. Teaching lack of tolerance for people of other sexual orientations, (lynching and other hate crimes)
4. Refusal to use birth control
5. Refusal to acknowledge separation of church and state

Obviously, not ALL religious people in the US subscribe to these ideals, but some do, and its scary. To keep things even, following is a list of good things that religion does:

1. Charities
2. Hospitals
3. Schools
4. Psychological tool