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Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side'

linwood

Well-Known Member
lilithu said:
Imo, you're losing the big picture by looking at too small a level. Just because you're an atheist doesn't mean that you haven't been influenced by Judeo-Christian attitudes. Western Humanist ethics is based on Judeo-Christian ethics, just without the god.
And even when one reacts against something, one is still very much influenced by it.

The mere fact that I am an atheist in my culture is evidence of the influence if Judeo-Christian influence.
Without that influence I wouldn`t need to or have come about to my point of view in the manner I have if at all.
As far as humanistic ethics being based upon Judeo-Christian ethics I think I would have to split hairs.
I think the fact that the humanist movement spends a great deal of it`s time countering the moral underpinnings of Christianity tells a different story.
Simply because Humanism and Christianity share some ethical viewpoints doesn`t mean one came from the other.
Especially considering the ultimate moral compass for the two different groups are worlds apart.
Christianity puts God before humanity.
Humanisim is all about the human condition and what can be done to improve it.
Humanism puts man before anything.




 

Flappycat

Well-Known Member
Oh, it's easy enough to explain away in the States, at least if you're a liberal Christian. The conservative Christians have been trying to bring down the public education system for a long time, purposefully undermining it in an attempt to give private schools a greater air of legitimacy. Without the public schools insuring that kids know the basic ideas behind evolution, they'd have greater chances of politicizing the theory out of existence. The degradation of the education systems, however, lends to worsening many social ills.

Easy enough to explain away.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I agree with Lilithu that humanism is based on Judeo Christian values, especially the notion of loving your neighbor. But I also think that humanism is based equally or even moreso on ancient Greek values.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Thanks for the clarification. Although I hope you can see how I concluded that.

Pah said:
I'm thinking that the mindset taught by religion is not conducive to sufficient charity verses a comfortable life style and the mad drive for profits.


~Victor
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I listen to conservative talk radio, and one idea that I hear repeatedly bandied about is the smug notion that the US is more moral than Europe because the US is more religious than Europe. Personally, I'm thankful this study puts the lie to that smug notion.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Sunstone said:
I listen to conservative talk radio, and one idea that I hear repeatedly bandied about is the smug notion that the US is more moral than Europe because the US is more religious than Europe. Personally, I'm thankful this study puts the lie to that smug notion.
You really think Europe is more moral then the U.S.?

~Victor
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Victor said:
You really think Europe is more moral then the U.S.?

~Victor
For one thing, Europe has lower rates of nearly every category of sexual problem than does the US. We tend to perceive ourselves as morally superior to the "degenerate" Europeans, but nearly every culture and society on earth tends to believe the myth that they are morally superior to their neighbors. In the case of the US versus Europe, the statistics just don't stack up to support the notion that the US is morally superior to Europe.
 
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Faint

Well-Known Member
linwood said:

Simply because Humanism and Christianity share some ethical viewpoints doesn`t mean one came from the other.
I agree. The fact that something exists in the world means that other things need to respond to it, which eventually affects the world in general (butterfly effect). So yes, atheists and humanists are affected by Christianity since it so ingrained in our culture, just as christianity was deeply affected by Greek and Roman mythology (Lucifer, Pandora's flood, afterlife torment in Hades, etc.) But this doesn't mean humanism comes from christianity. I think humanism is based more on reason, natural compassion, and instinct (all of which predate Christianity).

People seem to be born with a moral compass, regardless of their religion. But for the purpose of this thread, maybe religion confuses this compass. Maybe religion is like a strong magnet which pulls the compass' needle away from moral north, and leads people astray. Perhaps those in poverty might be "lost" as they stumble through life and bad luck. Religion comes along and gives them direction (like a compass), only it is the wrong kind of direction. Instead of leading them somewhere better, it leads them into more trouble.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Ah ok. Gotcha.
I'd like to dig deeper as to the reasons. I don't really buy "it's the religions fault" type of attitude.

~Victor
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Victor said:
Ah ok. Gotcha.
I'd like to dig deeper as to the reasons. I don't really buy "it's the religions fault" type of attitude.

~Victor
I don't buy that notion either. It seems to me that there is a lot more going on to explain why the US is so morally dysfunctional than merely the prevelance and depth of religion on these shores.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
But the point of the study isn`t to say that religion makes us immoral.
The point is to show that religion doesn`t make us moral.

It`s essentially to counter the popular Christian notion that religion = morality and non-religion = immorality.

As I said before, it does this well.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
linwood said:
The point is to show that religion doesn`t make us moral.

It`s essentially to counter the popular Christian notion that religion = morality and non-religion = immorality.


I see now. I really thought this was gonna turn into a blame game. That wasn't the case. I misunderstood.

~Victor
 

jonny

Well-Known Member
Pah said:
I would assume that a regional or state US study would not lead to the same results. The study had wealth as a criteria and was conducted with a larger, more homogenous population sample
The fact that religion and crime do not show as strong of a correlation on the state level as they do on the national level leads me to believe that the conclusion that there is a strong correlation between crime and religion is bunk. Some areas in the country are clearly more religious than other areas. If religion was the problem, crime would be coming from the religious areas.

The reason the study had wealth is because it proved what some wanted to believe - religion is the cause of the problems. I find the argument to be WEAK!!! Knockout
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
Victor said:
I see now. I really thought this was gonna turn into a blame game. That wasn't the case. I misunderstood.

~Victor
Not a problem Victor.
In all honestly I have been known to play the blame game at times.
:)
I`m trying to get better.
 

Faint

Well-Known Member
Victor said:
Ah ok. Gotcha.
I'd like to dig deeper as to the reasons. I don't really buy "it's the religions fault" type of attitude.

~Victor
I would say lack of education is a big reason. America's public school system is pretty bad. Maybe Linwood knows of some comparable study on wealthy countries' education compared to crime rates? In this case, more religion might be a symptom of less education, and thus religion would not be the cause of high crime rates (but also not helping to keep them down).

Incidently, this reminds me of a study where some researchers found that men who organized their sock drawers did not do as well with women as the men who didn't organize their socks. In this study, there was a definite correlation: the "true pimps" don't organize their socks. But common sense will tell you that a guy can't do well with women just by keeping his socks disorganized. There are lots of other factors (not cited in the study). We might be seeing the same type of thing here.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Faint said:
I would say lack of education is a big reason. America's public school system is pretty bad. Maybe Linwood knows of some comparable study on wealthy countries' education compared to crime rates? In this case, more religion might be a symptom of less education, and thus religion would not be the cause of high crime rates (but also not helping to keep them down).

Incidently, this reminds me of a study where some researchers found that men who organized their sock drawers did not do as well with women as the men who didn't organize their socks. In this study, there was a definite correlation: the "true pimps" don't organize their socks. But common sense will tell you that a guy can't do well with women just by keeping his socks disorganized. There are lots of other factors (not cited in the study). We might be seeing the same type of thing here.
That is a good point faint.

~Victor
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
The reason the study had wealth is because it proved what some wanted to believe - religion is the cause of the problems. I find the argument to be WEAK!!!
Yet again, that was never the argument.
In fact I tried to dispel that argument with the statistics on crime and religion between Alabama and Washington.

The study is valuable because it determines that religion doesn`t make a society moral and that non-religion doesn`t make a society immoral.
This may seem obvious to you but it is a major misrepresentation within Christian apologetics.
 

Pah

Uber all member
jonny said:
The fact that religion and crime do not show as strong of a correlation on the state level as they do on the national level leads me to believe that the conclusion that there is a strong correlation between crime and religion is bunk. Some areas in the country are clearly more religious than other areas. If religion was the problem, crime would be coming from the religious areas.

The reason the study had wealth is because it proved what some wanted to believe - religion is the cause of the problems. I find the argument to be WEAK!!! Knockout
Your argument is too simplistic. Small regions may have other factors that influence the study. The larger population provides a leveling of those differences.

No body said religion was the cause of crime. And no one said that poverty was caused by religion. The only "blame" is the religion does not do enough to ameliorate poverty with poverty being a highly likely cause of dysfunction.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
Faint said:
I would say lack of education is a big reason. America's public school system is pretty bad. Maybe Linwood knows of some comparable study on wealthy countries' education compared to crime rates? In this case, more religion might be a symptom of less education, and thus religion would not be the cause of high crime rates (but also not helping to keep them down).
I don`t know of any studies off hand but my personal experience would tend to agree with you.
My 5 year old girl goes to a pre-school run by Brits who are career teachers in this country for 5 years.
They are disgusted by the traditional American techniques and educational system entirely.
We`ve had many conversations recently about the differences between western Europeon and American elementary education.

I`m sure there are studies out there so I`ll have a look tonight because I think you`re right, it`s the next logical step in this discussion.

There are lots of other factors (not cited in the study). We might be seeing the same type of thing here.
I believe thats exactly what we`re seeing here.
 
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