Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side'

[linwood]

Very interesting article.
More at the link.

Many liberal Christians and believers of other faiths hold that religious belief is socially beneficial, believing that it helps to lower rates of violent crime, murder, suicide, sexual promiscuity and abortion. The benefits of religious belief to a society have been described as its “spiritual capital”. But the study claims that the devotion of many in the US may actually contribute to its ills.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1798944,00.html

It is interesting that America is one of the most religious democracies in existence and our crime rates far exceed the rest of the worlds democracies.
Our prison population is overwhelmed with Christians.

EDIT:
I just found the study itself posted at IIDB.

Large-scale surveys show dramatic declines in religiosity in favor of secularization in the developed democracies. Popular acceptance of evolutionary science correlates negatively with levels of religiosity, and the United States is the only prosperous nation where the majority absolutely believes in a creator and evolutionary science is unpopular. Abundant data is available on rates of societal dysfunction and health in the first world. Cross-national comparisons of highly differing rates of religiosity and societal conditions form a mass epidemiological experiment that can be used to test whether high rates of belief in and worship of a creator are necessary for high levels of social health. Data correlations show that in almost all regards the highly secular democracies consistently enjoy low rates of societal dysfunction, while pro-religious and anti-evolution America performs poorly.
http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html

 

[Sunstone]

I would like to see more studies on this.

 

[Pah]

Very interesting article.
More at the link.

It is interesting that America is one of the most religious democracies in existence and our crime rates far exceed the rest of the worlds democracies.
Our prison population is overwhelmed with Christians.

It's very interesting. In order to avoid the "Post hoc, ergo propter hoc" syndrome, it would be englighting if we had crime data for early America when church affiliation was at it's low point of 13%. I also wouldn't mind a bit of physcology here as to why there is a contradiction.

 

[Faint]

This is an interesting article. Do you think Mr. Paul considers abortion a problem like STDs, murder, and suicide? Certainly a lot of people think religion is good for society. Maybe that isn't the case. I would like to see more studies, facts, and figures on this subject. Do you know of any?

 

[Quiddity]

Interesting. Although many other countries have high Christian population, but lower crime rates. Perhaps this is more of a Western phenomenon then it is Christian vs. non-Christian.

~Victor

 

[Aqualung]

Interesting. Although many other countries have high Christian population, but lower crime rates. Perhaps this is more of a Western phenomenon then it is Christian vs. non-Christian.

~Victor

Yes, that's the way I was leaning.

 

[linwood]

I also wouldn't mind a bit of physcology here as to why there is a contradiction.

If you mean the contradiction of it being said that religion is beneficial to the actual evidence that it is not, I think you`ve already got a pretty good idea Pah.

Do you think Mr. Paul considers abortion a problem like STDs, murder, and suicide?

I`m only about halfway through his actual study but he does include abortion as an undesirable thing for society.

Interesting. Although many other countries have high Christian population, but lower crime rates. Perhaps this is more of a Western phenomenon then it is Christian vs. non-Christian.

What other country has a percentage of practicing Christians even close to the US percentage?

EDIT:

Japan, Scandinavia, and France are the most secular nations in the west, the United States is the only prosperous first world nation to retain rates of religiosity otherwise limited to the second and third worlds (Bishop; PEW).

 

[linwood]

I just want to point out that this is a study of the worlds most developed/richest democracies.
undeveloped and poor countries don`t have the collection of statistical data necessary to form a serious study.

 

[Quiddity]

What other country has a percentage of practicing Christians even close to the US percentage?

Here are some good guesses:

Mexico
Romania
Several African countries

~Victor

 

[linwood]

It's very interesting. In order to avoid the "Post hoc, ergo propter hoc" syndrome, it would be englighting if we had crime data for early America when church affiliation was at it's low point of 13%. I also wouldn't mind a bit of physcology here as to why there is a contradiction.

"[15] A few hundred years ago rates of homicide were astronomical in Christian Europe and the American colonies (Beeghley; R. Lane). In all secular developing democracies a centuries long-term trend has seen homicide rates drop to historical lows (Figure 2)."

There is a relative chart of historic comparison if you click the "figure 2 text here...

 

[linwood]

Here are some good guesses:

Mexico
Romania
Several African countries

~Victor

None of those are considered developed/rich nations.

 

[Quiddity]

None of those are considered developed/rich nations.

I'm sorry I thought we were talking crime vs. number of Christians. And Mexico is pretty developed already.
Perhaps it sounds nicer to you for me to say that where ever there is crime, there is Chritians. How do you like them apples?

~Victor

 

[linwood]

I'm sorry I thought we were talking crime vs. number of Christians. And Mexico is pretty developed already.

I`m sorry I seriously disagree with that statement.
Mexico is by no means economically stable/independent nor does it`s government posess resources near what is needed for most of it`s people to live in anything other than poverty

Perhaps it sounds nicer to you for me to say that where ever there is crime, there is Chritians. How do you like them apples?

Unless you simply wish to take this thread down to a personal level instead of disputing, discussing, or debating the OP I don`t see the relevance of the statement.

 

[Faint]

None of those are considered developed/rich nations.

And anyway, as I understand it, Mexico is predominantly catholic, and has a higher crime rate than the U.S., which only helps to support the point of the article.

 

[linwood]

And anyway, as I understand it, Mexico is predominantly catholic, and has a higher crime rate than the U.S., which only helps to support the point of the article.

True as are most African nations but It`s not fair to argue including these nations considering we really don`t have the data available to look at.

Edit:
Now that you do mention it though I don`t think the data would help the cause of theism in this debate if we did have it for undeveloped nations.
I`m of the opinion that they are still undeveloped partially because most are still heavily theistic.

 

[jonny]

Correlation doesn't necessarily imply that religion is the cause of the problem. I live in a very religious community and we have a very low crime rate. I think there are other underlying causes besides religion.

 

[Quiddity]

Correlation doesn't necessarily imply that religion is the cause of the problem. I live in a very religious community and we have a very low crime rate. I think there are other underlying causes besides religion.

This is exactly what I'm trying to say, but reasons unknown to me, linwood seems to want to attach it to religion.

~Victor

 

[Faint]

This is exactly what I'm trying to say, but reasons unknown to me, linwood seems to want to attach it to religion.

~Victor

Maybe religion is the root of the problem. If religion shapes ideas, and ideas shape behavior, then maybe religion is a sort of catalyst in these societies which leads to other problems.

 

[linwood]

Correlation doesn't necessarily imply that religion is the cause of the problem. I live in a very religious community and we have a very low crime rate. I think there are other underlying causes besides religion.

I`m in full agreement.
I believe poverty,education and social status also contribute greatly to crime and immorality.

Now the question would be..

How does religiousity contribute to poverty and social status?

 

[Quiddity]

Maybe religion is the root of the problem. If religion shapes ideas, and ideas shape behavior, then maybe religion is a sort of catalyst in these societies which leads to other problems.

At least your up front about it. Thank you. But unfortunately the cro-magnum man was no peace maker. No religion here.

~Victor