Slavery is still legal in America. The quest to eliminate the 13th amendment slavery clause

[Erebus]

Seriously this should be serious enough to garner bipartisan support to eliminate the clause because if unchecked, it's only going to worsen I think.

Absolutely agreed.

 

[PureX]

The next step would be to make homelessness illegal so we can put them in work camps, and make them work for their keep.

There are a lot of Americans that would approve this. Having no knowledge of history. Just as they currently approve forced prison labor.

A lot of Americans, feeling trapped in jobs they hate, themselves, really like the idea of everyone else being made to suffer that fate, too. Like abused children growing up to become child abusers.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

The next step would be to make homelessness illegal so we can put them in work camps, and makes work for their keep.

There are a lot of Americans that would approve this. Having no knowledge of history. Just as they approve forced prison labor.

A lot of Americans, feeling trapped in jobs they hate, themselves, really like the idea of everyone else being made to suffer that fate, too. Like abused children growing up to become child abusers.

Yeah, but try not to hate them. I learned that, because then I would be them and a part of the problem.

 

[Revoltingest]

Thanks for bringing this up.

Also, apparently, from what I've heard - Mississippi still has debtor's prison of sorts, too.

Many (perhaps all?) still have debtor's prison.
It's called "Friend Of The Court".

 

[Twilight Hue]

The next step would be to make homelessness illegal so we can put them in work camps, and make them work for their keep.

There are a lot of Americans that would approve this. Having no knowledge of history. Just as they currently approve forced prison labor.

A lot of Americans, feeling trapped in jobs they hate, themselves, really like the idea of everyone else being made to suffer that fate, too. Like abused children growing up to become child abusers.

I think Texas did that already.

Statewide ban on homeless encampments approved by Texas Senate

They essentially banned homeless people from camping, leaving them to a hellish fate of fines they can't possibly pay, and absolutely nowhere to live without risking arrest and or incurring fines.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think Texas did that already.

Statewide ban on homeless encampments approved by Texas Senate

They essentially banned homeless people from camping, leaving them to a hellish fate of fines they can't possibly pay, and absolutely nowhere to live without risking arrest and or incurring fines.

My uber-liberal town (Ann Arbor, MI) also
illegalized such encampments. There are
shelters, but not enuf to accommodate all.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I think Texas did that already.

Statewide ban on homeless encampments approved by Texas Senate

They essentially banned homeless people from camping, leaving them to a hellish fate of fines they can't possibly pay, and absolutely nowhere to live without risking arrest and or incurring fines.

The joke about a version of property rights is that in effect the unlucky ones have no right being in this world, because they violate the "rights" of those with power and privilege.

 

[wellwisher]

Lawmakers seek to end slavery for the incarcerated, which is legal in most states

I agree that involuntary servitude using prisoners ought to end, but why do most states still allow slavery to this day? That includes Democrats and Republicans alike.

Yes. The US still has slave states where imprisoned people are forced into labor camps aka chain gangs.

Thoughts?

It is not slavery, if you choose to be there. We all know if you commit crime you could end up in one of these places. You have a choice to be there, our not based on a crossroads of life. If you choose to create victims, others in law enforcement will make you a victim, so you can learn how it feels. The rules are up front and not hidden.

If you mug a poor person in a large city, you may have reduced their hard earned wage to what they make in prison. The poor are often prisoners of the criminals and gangs. Such people, as the latter, need to learn to empathize.

I am not the criminal type, but I would hate to be locked up in a tiny room most of the day. I would welcome being outside picking up litter, on the side of a highway, for the afternoon. I would feel free again. This is how you learn that being trusted by others, can bring something good to your dismal life.

Prisoners who pick up litter, without shackles, are the most trusted prisoners with the best chances of reforming. This is not punishment but time away from punishment, halfway to freedom on the outside. The outside world is not always fun and games, especially for reformed criminals. You may need to start again with a menial jobs; laborer. But you will be free.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

It is not slavery, if you choose to be there. We all know if you commit crime you could end up in one of these places. You have a choice to be there, our not based on a crossroads of life. If you choose to create victims, others in law enforcement will make you a victim, so you can learn how it feels. The rules are up front and not hidden.

If you mug a poor person in a large city, you may have reduced their hard earned wage to what they make in prison. The poor are often prisoners of the criminals and gangs. Such people, as the latter, need to learn to empathize.

I am not the criminal type, but I would hate to be locked up in a tiny room most of the day. I would welcome being outside picking up litter, on the side of a highway, for the afternoon. I would feel free again. This is how you learn that being trusted by others, can bring something good to your dismal life.

Prisoners who pick up litter, without shackles, are the most trusted prisoners with the best chances of reforming. This is not punishment but time away from punishment, halfway to freedom on the outside. The outside world is not always fun and games, especially for reformed criminals. You may need to start again with a menial jobs; laborer. But you will be free.

You have some points, but here is the joke. Limit it to 1st world and look at recidivism rates by country as for the lowest and then check out Norway.

 

[Stevicus]

A lot of Americans, feeling trapped in jobs they hate, themselves, really like the idea of everyone else being made to suffer that fate, too. Like abused children growing up to become child abusers.

Or like crabs in a bucket.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Or like crabs in a bucket.

Well, all humans are in my faith humans unique, sacred, worthy of reverence, and have dignity and positive worth.
But that is not all humans, because there are those who are not even nothing, because that would be insulting to nothing.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The amazing thing about all this is that the American people still don't see themselves falling into a giant corporate controlled feudal state complete with a new intellectual "dark age" thanks to run away capitalism. We'll blame it on everyone but the actual perpetrators.

That's basically long been America, and has more to do with American Christianity and bad readings of people like John Dewey that got us here than Capitalism. Of course their is some truth to the idea we're educated just enough to show up on time amd push some buttons, but America was still very deeply rural amd not very Capitalist at the time when these things began taking hold.

 

[PureX]

That's basically long been America, and has more to do with American Christianity and bad readings of people like John Dewey that got us here than Capitalism. Of course their is some truth to the idea we're educated just enough to show up on time and push some buttons, but America was still very deeply rural and not very Capitalist at the time when these things began taking hold.

The U.S. was always "deeply capitalist", it's just that we were not always as dependent on commerce for our survival as we are, now. Which has given the capitalists monopolies over every market but luxury markets. Monopolies are what the capitalists crave, because exploitation for maximum profit is the capital investor's only goal. And the capital investor has all the commercial control when the rest if us have to buy to survive.

 

[PureX]

It is not slavery, if you choose to be there. We all know if you commit crime you could end up in one of these places. You have a choice to be there, our not based on a crossroads of life. If you choose to create victims, others in law enforcement will make you a victim, so you can learn how it feels. The rules are up front and not hidden.

If you mug a poor person in a large city, you may have reduced their hard earned wage to what they make in prison. The poor are often prisoners of the criminals and gangs. Such people, as the latter, need to learn to empathize.

I am not the criminal type, but I would hate to be locked up in a tiny room most of the day. I would welcome being outside picking up litter, on the side of a highway, for the afternoon. I would feel free again. This is how you learn that being trusted by others, can bring something good to your dismal life.

Prisoners who pick up litter, without shackles, are the most trusted prisoners with the best chances of reforming. This is not punishment but time away from punishment, halfway to freedom on the outside. The outside world is not always fun and games, especially for reformed criminals. You may need to start again with a menial jobs; laborer. But you will be free.

No one ever really chooses where they are in life. That's just some fantasy of control that we humans like to presume. And it's not slavery because of geography. It's slavery because it's forced labor.

Also, the idea that cops exist to inflict punishment so criminals know how it feels to be a victim is quite insane. Most criminals know all too well how it feels to be a victim. It's why most of them are criminals, now. Punishing crime has no overall positive effect on criminality. Violence and abuse result in more violence and abuse. This is a very well known fact.

And nearly every criminal in every prison everywhere on Earth knows that the real criminals are the ones running things. No street criminal does anywhere near the harm to their fellow humans as a corporate CEO, or a corrupt politician. The criminals know only too well who the real criminals are.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The U.S. was always "deeply capitalist", it's just that we were not always as dependent on commerce for our survival as we are, now. Which has given the capitalists monopolies over every market but luxury markets. Monopolies are what the capitalists crave, because exploitation for maximum profit is the capital investor's only goal. And the capital investor has all the commercial control when the rest if us have to buy to survive.

No, it hasn't. Used to be communities didn't stick around long and people moved around so much there used to be a very high unchurched population. America was very deeply rural during that time, a time of settlers, expansion and people moving around searching for new lands to live in. You just can't do much Capitalist business if you don't really even have any services, businesses, or other means of money flow and exchange when people move around so much their settlements often didn't last long. Things were far more sustenance-based back then.

 

[PureX]

No, it hasn't. Used to be communities didn't stick around long and people moved around so much there used to be a very high unchurched population. America was very deeply rural during that time, a time of settlers, expansion and people moving around searching for new lands to live in. You just can't do much Capitalist business if you don't really even have any services, businesses, or other means of money flow and exchange when people move around so much their settlements often didn't last long. Things were far more sustenance-based back then.

That was my point. Most people were subsistence based. They did not have to engage in capitalized commerce to survive. Now nearly everyone does. And the goal of capitalist controlled commerce is to exploit everyone and everything for maximum profit to the capital investor. Using money to capture more money. People don't matter. Morality doesn't matter. The environment doesn't matter. All that matters is maximizing the profit gained from the capital invested. So the capitalists love our captive markets, where the buyers all have to buy, to live. It's a highly exploitable situation. And exploit it they do! For every penny they can get.

And they're getting really good at it. Thanks to the 'information highway' they know just how many pennies you have. And just how much they can charge you for food, and clothing, and shelter, and communications, and transportation, and education,, and health care, and home heating, and electricity, and water and sewer service, and on and on and an ... ALL of which we have to buy in the marketplace. A marketplace that they control. Because that's what 'capitalism' is ... an economic system that gives the capital investor total control over the commercial enterprise he/she/they're invested in. And the only thing they will want to do with all that control is exploit everything and everyone involved for the maximum return on the capital they've invested. When we were mostly a self-sufficient people living off the land by our own labor, we didn't have to engage in this greed-based commercial system if we felt we were being exploited. So we had some control over the commerce we engaged in, then. But that is no longer true. Now we HAVE to engage in this greedy system to get everything we need to live. And the capitalists in control of that system all know it. And they all want to exploit our predicament for every penny they can get.

This is a very new problem facing humanity (only 150 years or so): this total dependence on commerce for our survival. And capitalism is a terrible economic system to engage in under these circumstances. The capitalists love it, of course, because they're all getting rich from it. But everyone else is slowly sinking into poverty and servitude even in what is supposedly the most wealthy and free nation on Earth. And the failure isn't just here in the U.S., it's happening in all the predominantly capitalist countries. It's why we are seeing fascism on the rise in all these 'modern' countries. Unfortunately people tend to turn to fascism when they feel trapped, and frustrated, and abused. They see it as a way of taking their power back when they feel powerless. But sadly, this will never be the result of their adopting any fascist regime. Just the opposite will result, in fact.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That was my point.

Your point was pinning America's current situation, which you labeled a new dark ages, is to blame on Capitalism. That largely and mostly is not true. It can be traced back to earlier days of American sovereignty, when a massive chunk of the American population was rural and another sizable chunk of the population was frequently moving around. Even as far back then American Conservatives widely not liked or trusted any education beyond a bare bones minimum, if they trust any education at all and see any point or purpose in it. They have been so opposed to it they even opposed to their kids being educated, some fearing a reality of their children being more educated than they are. Even public funding for schools has LONG been opposed in America, even before the Civil War and the industrialism that helped win it.

 

[PureX]

Your point was pinning America's current situation, which you labeled a new dark ages, is to blame on Capitalism. That largely and mostly is not true. It can be traced back to earlier days of American sovereignty, when a massive chunk of the American population was rural and another sizable chunk of the population was frequently moving around. Even as far back then American Conservatives widely not liked or trusted any education beyond a bare bones minimum, if they trust any education at all and see any point or purpose in it. They have been so opposed to it they even opposed to their kids being educated, some fearing a reality of their children being more educated than they are. Even public funding for schools has LONG been opposed in America, even before the Civil War and the industrialism that helped win it.

It has nothing to do with anyone "moving around". It has to do with our being able to forgo a market intent on exploiting us, or not being able to forgo it. Capitalism's innate desire to exploit people for profit was not so much of a problem for people as long as they could refuse to engage in commerce when that exploitation become too egregious. But we no longer have that choice, now, as we are no longer able to survive without engaging in commerce. We are held captive by every market but the luxury markets. And because we are held captive by them, the capitalists are able to exploit that captivity for maximum profit. And so they do.

 

[Revoltingest]

Lawmakers seek to end slavery for the incarcerated, which is legal in most states

I agree that involuntary servitude using prisoners ought to end, but why do most states still allow slavery to this day? That includes Democrats and Republicans alike.

Yes. The US still has slave states where imprisoned people are forced into labor camps aka chain gangs.

Thoughts?

Do you realize that if you eliminated (ie, repealed)
the 13th Amendment (per your title), you'd also
eliminate the prohibition against slavery?

My inner pedant is now happy again.

 

[averageJOE]

Don't forget Kamala Harris kept people in prison past their release date for the sole purpose of slave labor.
How Kamala Harris Fought to Keep Nonviolent Prisoners Locked Up