Should Transgender Athletes compete in sports?

[Koldo]

And your opinion is just wrong. This is a matter of facts and science, not semantics.

If you are disputing the way I am using a word or the meaning of a word, then that is exactly what is called a matter of semantics.

Much of what makes a male a male and a female a female comes down to hormones. Change that, and you're changing their biology since hormones are what the body runs on.

Much of.... ? Not every single thing ?
I don't see where is the disagreement with what I have said then.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

If you are disputing the way I am using a word or the meaning of a word, then that is exactly what is called a matter of semantics.



Much of.... ? Not every single thing ?
I don't see where is the disagreement with what I have said then.

You said that trans women aren't biological women, and I pointed out that that's incorrect. That's not semantics, that's just a matter of being right or wrong.

"Much of" because sex can't be reduced down to just one thing. It's complex, dependent on multiple factors - genetic, chromosomal, neurological, hormonal, reproductive, etc. Any of one of those things can be out of sync and many of those factors can be changed. But just because something, like karotype or genetics, can't be changed at the moment doesn't mean they override all the other factors. Genes and chromosomes are mostly blueprints but many things can happen that cause "assembly" to go off course.

 

[Koldo]

You said that trans women aren't biological women, and I pointed out that that's incorrect. That's not semantics, that's just a matter of being right or wrong.

Do you agree that all biological women ( among other things ) were not born with a penis?
If you don't, then we don't agree on what being a biological woman means.
If we disagree over what a term means, then it is a matter of semantics.
I don't know how to explain it any more clearly than this.

I think it is a waste of time to argue over semantics though.
How about we simply try to understand what each other is saying and then proceed to discuss the actual topic ?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Do you agree that all biological women ( among other things ) were not born with a penis?
If you don't, then we don't agree on what being a biological woman means.
If we disagree over what a term means, then it is a matter of semantics.
I don't know how to explain it any more clearly than this.

I think it is a waste of time to argue over semantics though.
How about we simply try to understand what each other is saying and then proceed to discuss the actual topic ?

It's not an issue of semantics, it's an issue of you being wrong and trying to distract from that.

Why are you so obsessed with penises? You know, there's boys born with ovaries or even a uterus in some cases and girls born with testes. Reality isn't black and white. Most people are obviously further along the extremes of the spectrum of biological sex but there's a large range of conditions that place people in a grayer area. Transsexuals are one category of people. We are born with some of the characteristics of the opposite sex than the one we were assigned at birth, such as our brain anatomy and digit ratio, and then we can choose to take on more of those biological characteristics through hormone replacement and surgery. So, yes - trans women are biological women and trans men are biological men. So you're just wrong and need to accept that.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Transsexualism has been shown to be a real medical condition by science. There's neurological, genetic and physical differences between transsexuals and cis people. Neurologically, our brains are more similar to those of the sex we identify as. We often have hormone issues before starting HRT, as well. Transsexualism may be an intersex condition.

Please show me the scientific evidence showing that it is possible to be "trans-species". Oh, you can't. So just stop trolling and posting utter garbage.

A few years ago no one ever heard of trans-sexualism. Maybe a few years from now we will hear of trans-species. We should not discriminate. And you did not answer the question of how many were men or women or dogs. Doesn't a person have the right to think of himself as a dog?

 

[Koldo]

It's not an issue of semantics, it's an issue of you being wrong and trying to distract from that.

And here we go again...
Statements are not arguments.

Why are you so obsessed with penises?

Why are you saying this ?
You say this as if I keep repeating the word. I don't get it. Really.

You know, there's boys born with ovaries or even a uterus in some cases and girls born with testes. Reality isn't black and white. Most people are obviously further along the extremes of the spectrum of biological sex but there's a large range of conditions that place people in a grayer area. Transsexuals are one category of people. We are born with some of the characteristics of the opposite sex than the one we were assigned at birth, such as our brain anatomy and digit ratio, and then we can choose to take on more of those biological characteristics through hormone replacement and surgery.

I know reality isn't black and white. If anything, trying to pidgeonhole everyone in just two sex groups seems to be the cause of this commotion.

So, yes - trans women are biological women and trans men are biological men. So you're just wrong and need to accept that.

I think you will need to accept that I don't consider trans men to be biological men.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Doesn't this mostly come downs to how you are defining terms such as 'dog', 'woman' and 'man' ?
What makes a dog a dog ?
What makes a woman a woman ?
And what makes a man a man ?

If all that counts is the assigned sex and species, then they will all be men even after the hormones and surgeries.
But how do you understand those terms ?

My point is that a person is fre to think of himself as anything he wants. That does not make it true. Sex and species are determined at birth. Appearance may be changed but you are what you were at birth.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

And here we go again...
Statements are not arguments.



Why are you saying this ?
You say this as if I keep repeating the word. I don't get it. Really.



I know reality isn't black and white. If anything, trying to pidgeonhole everyone in just two sex groups seems to be the cause of this commotion.



I think you will need to accept that I don't consider trans men to be biological men.

You can continue to be wrong. That's fine.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

A few years ago no one ever heard of trans-sexualism. Maybe a few years from now we will hear of trans-species. We should not discriminate. And you did not answer the question of how many were men or women or dogs. Doesn't a person have the right to think of himself as a dog?

"Origin and use
Norman Haire reported that in 1921,[10] Dora R of Germany began a surgical transition, under the care of Magnus Hirschfeld, which ended in 1930 with a successful genital reassignment surgery. In 1930, Hirschfeld supervised the second genital reassignment surgery to be reported in detail in a peer-reviewed journal, that of Lili Elbe of Denmark. In 1923, Hirschfeld introduced the (German) term "Transsexualismus",[11] after which David Oliver Cauldwell introduced "transsexualism" and "transsexual" to English in 1949 and 1950.[12][13]"
Transsexual - Wikipedia

There were trans people making headlines in the '30s, '40s and '50s for their transitions. It's nothing new. Christine Jorgensen was a celebrity in the '50s because of it: Christine Jorgensen - Wikipedia

To be blunt, you're just pretty stupid about this topic, along with being cruel, and should stop talking about it until you go learn about it more.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

"Origin and use
Norman Haire reported that in 1921,[10] Dora R of Germany began a surgical transition, under the care of Magnus Hirschfeld, which ended in 1930 with a successful genital reassignment surgery. In 1930, Hirschfeld supervised the second genital reassignment surgery to be reported in detail in a peer-reviewed journal, that of Lili Elbe of Denmark. In 1923, Hirschfeld introduced the (German) term "Transsexualismus",[11] after which David Oliver Cauldwell introduced "transsexualism" and "transsexual" to English in 1949 and 1950.[12][13]"
Transsexual - Wikipedia

There were trans people making headlines in the '30s, '40s and '50s for their transitions. It's nothing new. Christine Jorgensen was a celebrity in the '50s because of it: Christine Jorgensen - Wikipedia

To be blunt, you're just pretty stupid about this topic, along with being cruel, and should stop talking about it until you go learn about it more.

You are certainly free to your opinions but I think calling someone stupid is against the rules. You have your opinions and I happve mine and I may disagree with you but I have never said you were stupid. I still believe a man with long floppy dog ears and a tail is stil a man and a man with long hair and breasts is stlil a man. It is your right to disagree but that does not make my opinion stupid.

 

[Koldo]

You can continue to be wrong. That's fine.

You can continue to think that I am wrong. I don't mind.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You are certainly free to your opinions but I think calling someone stupid is against the rules. You have your opinions and I happve mine and I may disagree with you but I have never said you were stupid. I still believe a man with long floppy dog ears and a tail is stil a man and a man with long hair and breasts is stlil a man. It is your right to disagree but that does not make my opinion stupid.

I didn't call you stupid, I said you're stupid about this topic. If you have a problem, report it. It means nothing to me after the hate you've spewed all over this thread.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

I didn't call you stupid, I said you're stupid about this topic. If you have a problem, report it. It means nothing to me after the hate you've spewed all over this thread.

OK I will stop spewing. But I do not hate anyone. You call it hate because you do not agree.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Why are you talking to me if you are unwilling to have an actual discussion ?

I respond to what I feel like. You can do that, too.

 

[Shad]

Because for some reason it has been decided it would be unfair to have women competing against men.
But is that really unfair, and if so, why ?

Go look up world records.

I think that to address this issue we need to start with this question.

This was resolved decades ago.

Why is one competitive advantage ( being male ) considered unfair while others ( such as being taller depending on the sport ) not considered unfair ?

As male biology goes beyond merely height.

 

[Shad]

I've mentioned this several times now, but nobody has engaged with it: there are other athletes who also have innate characteristics that give them advantages over other athletes. Why should Castor Semenya have to take drugs to reduce her testosterone levels if, say, Michael Phelps didn't have to take drugs to increase his lactic acid levels?

As the latter can be created by training programs which most athletes can take part in if they want.

Should we tell male equestrian riders whose height and weight is below the typical range for men "sorry - you have an unfair advantage. You aren't allowed to ride against other men"?

It is a horse race not a rider race.

It seems to me that when we're talling about an athlete's inborn traits, there's a telling divide: people only ask if those traits give the athlete an unfair advantage when we're talking about a woman.

As men have a biological advantage over women. Go look at world records.

Michael Phelps? Oh, he's a "born swimmer." He's destined to outshine other swimmers. Good for him! Castor Semenya? Oh, she's "not a real woman." She'd outshine other runners. This has to be stopped.

Babble

Inherent in all of it is this idea of female inferiority: if you perform well enough, you can't be a real woman.

Wrong. Go look at world records.

Meanwhile, by the "all that matters is the genitalia you're born with" crowd as well as those who care about gender identity, she is a real woman.

Define woman.

 

[Koldo]

Go look up world records.



This was resolved decades ago.



As male biology goes beyond merely height.

Would it be unfair for women to consistently lose at most sports ?
If yes, isn't it unfair that short people consistently lose on volleyball ? Isn't it unfair for tall people to consistently lose at gymnastics ?

Why is there a divide between genders but not a divide between different heights ? Why is it regarded as fair for every male to face every male at most sports as an equal when that is obviously not true ? Do you want another example ? Even though I am a male, there is no chance I would be able to win a marathon race. No matter how much hard work I do. I don't have the genes.

Sports, in general, are not designed to be fair. Period. So when someone says: It is unfair for transgender women to compete against cisgender women, my answer is: So what ?

 

[Mock Turtle]

How is it fair? Are there any other cases where a person's natural physical advantages are required to nullify those advantages with drugs?

As I said, I'm not in a position to know, so argue with the appropriate authority.

Trans athletes are a different matter. While I'm not sure trans women should be required to lower their testosterone to be able to compete; however;

- it's generally accepted that an athlete with a medical condition is allowed to be treated for their medical condition.
- gender dysphoria is a bit unique in that leaving the condition untreated might create performance advantages.
- there have been cases in the past (Russian weightlifters in the 80s, IIRC) where cis male athletes were forced to undergo gender reassignment surgery by an oppressive regime so that they would compete as women.

... but Castor Semenya isn't trans.

No, but she might well have been, being intersex and perhaps could have chosen to change.

Physical characteristics give advantages. This is true across athletic sport. Why are we only singling out physical characteristics of trans people - or of cis women who don't adhere to gender norms - as "unfair?"

Ask the appropriate authority, not me.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

As I said, I'm not in a position to know, so argue with the appropriate authority.



No, but she might well have been, being intersex and perhaps could have chosen to change.



Ask the appropriate authority, not me.

I'm not asking you to define policy for the IOC; I'm asking you to explain the opinions that you put forward.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I'm not asking you to define policy for the IOC; I'm asking you to explain the opinions that you put forward.

Like understanding ethics? Would you feel no guilt if you apparently had an unfair advantage? I would. I've never ever cheated in any exam, for example.