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Should Transgender Athletes compete in sports?

Should Transgender Athletes compete in sports?

  • Yes

    Votes: 17 73.9%
  • No

    Votes: 7 30.4%
  • I don't know

    Votes: 1 4.3%

  • Total voters
    23

Earthtank

Active Member
2 ways to answer the OP

1) No, transgenders should NOT be allowed to compete due to the mental issues as well as all the hormones some take when they try to "transition"

or

2) Yes, but in their biological gender/sex as long as they are not on any kind of hormone therapy. Born a female you compete against other females as long as you are hormone free and same for the men.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
You seem to be missing the point.

The championships are elite, the winner (prior to transition) wasn't, hence their lack of wins in elite male competition.

You claim non-elite males can become elite females while being at a greater disadvantage than women born with female anatomy.



My point was about non-elite athletes becoming elite post-transition.



The study is not yet published, but the details were in the article I linked to:

Dr Tommy Lundberg, an exercise physiologist at the Karolinska Institute who has led the research, said that muscle mass dropped by five per cent after a year's treatment, but that the effect on trans women's muscle strength was neglible. The research was carried out on 23 volunteers - 12 trans women and 11 trans men - to monitor changes in muscle mass and strength during and after a year of hormone therapy.

Lundberg told The Times: "There has been no research at all previously on what happens, especially in terms of strength after transitioning. This is relevant for sports where strength is considered an advantage.

"We have found that trans women's muscle mass decreases by five per cent after a year but they maintained their strength levels throughout the treatment period.

"While the people in the study are not transgender athletes, the data are still relevant to the sporting community given that there has been no data available on changes in lower-limb muscle strength at this point."

Previous research has indicated biological males have at least a 10 to 12 per cent higher muscle strength than biological females, and in some power sports up to 39 per cent.

Lundberg's research, which he has presented at several scientific conferences, also found that women who have transitioned to be men and taken testosterone saw their muscle strength increase by 15 per cent, but they were still not as strong as men who transitioned to be women and took the testosterone blockers.

Ross Tucker, a scientific researcher for World Rugby, believes sports may have to reassess their policies on transgender players as a result of the findings. He said: "Sports are going to have to move with a lot more caution on this."



You really do have a rather unique talent for missing the context and the bigger picture :D



What's clear is I've provided 2 examples of non-elite (pre-transition) males winning elite women's competitions post-transition.

You really don't understand why this is incompatible with the idea that MTF transitioning actually decreases performance? Seriously?



I've just given you 2 examples which you ignored.

So any rational explanation as to why this can happen if they are being disadvantaged/not advantaged by transitioning?
Never mind. Why do I bother?
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Physical differences between athletes is an inherent part of any sport. I think the only reason why "fairness" is brought up with regard to trans athletes is because the people calling for "fairness" don't regard trans women as real women.

They aren't hence the word modifier "trans" otherwise they would just be women. Your ideology has made you blind to the obvious even when it comes from your own finger tips
 

Scott C.

Just one guy
But is this true for trans athletes?

I have no idea what impact hormonal therapy has on a transgender female in terms of strength and athleticism. But I can't imagine how anyone could come up with rules that allow one transgender person in and keeps the other out, based on if they had therapy and what athletic potential they exhibit. Now if transgender men want to play sports with men, I see no problem as they will need to exhibit the necessary skills or they will be cut from the team. But then I feel that way about any female who wants to compete on a men's team.
 
I have no idea what impact hormonal therapy has on a transgender female in terms of strength and athleticism.

The reduction in performance is less than the natural advantage that comes from being born with male anatomy.

After 1 year, a trans-woman on performance inhibiting drugs even has an advantage over a trans-man on performance enhancing drugs.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
The reduction in performance is less than the natural advantage that comes from being born with male anatomy.

After 1 year, a trans-woman on performance inhibiting drugs even has an advantage over a trans-man on performance enhancing drugs.
I doubt this, as a trans person. Most of the trans women I know report being weaker after HRT and other doctors have said there's no issue with trans women competing with cis women in sports. Plus, it is known that trans women are at more risk for bone problems. You need androgens to sustain a male musculature. So I'm taking this apparent study with a grain of salt. You said it's not even released yet, anyway. More research does need to be done and one study is not going to settle the issue.
 
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I doubt this, as a trans person. Most of the trans women I know report being weaker after HRT and other doctors have said there's no issue with trans women competing with cis women in sports. Plus, it is known that trans women are at more risk for bone problems. You need androgens to sustain a male musculature. So I'm taking this apparent study with a grain of salt. You said it's not even released yet, anyway. More research does need to be done and one study is not going to settle the issue.

On the second point that transwomen still have advantage over transmen I agree more research would need to be done with far more people to understand the issue further and be confident in the findings. Individual responses vary too much to judge based on 23 people.

As to whether transwomen may retain a performance advantage as their performance drops by less than 10-40%, that study is less significant than multiple instances of non-elite athletes suddenly becoming elite in their 30s post-transition. Massive jumps in performance such as this are almost impossible naturally.

Possible explanations:

1. Women's competition is incredibly weak relative to men's so that elite women are nowhere near performance limits, which is pretty unlikely for sports which have been Olympic events for quite a long time.
2. The athlete started doping extensively. The problem is this assumes the other competitors remain clean otherwise relative performance improvement will not be sufficient. Elite strength/stamina based sports are not remotely clean though making this very unlikely.
3. The athlete started doping and has an unnaturally strong response to doping. I suppose it is possible that trans/cis women respond differently to doping, especially androgens.
4. The athlete retained an advantage from pre-transition physiology (and we know people can retain benefits from PEDs for many years after they stop using them)
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
On the second point that transwomen still have advantage over transmen I agree more research would need to be done with far more people to understand the issue further and be confident in the findings. Individual responses vary too much to judge based on 23 people.

As to whether transwomen may retain a performance advantage as their performance drops by less than 10-40%, that study is less significant than multiple instances of non-elite athletes suddenly becoming elite in their 30s post-transition. Massive jumps in performance such as this are almost impossible naturally.

Possible explanations:

1. Women's competition is incredibly weak relative to men's so that elite women are nowhere near performance limits, which is pretty unlikely for sports which have been Olympic events for quite a long time.
2. The athlete started doping extensively. The problem is this assumes the other competitors remain clean otherwise relative performance improvement will not be sufficient. Elite strength/stamina based sports are not remotely clean though making this very unlikely.
3. The athlete started doping and has an unnaturally strong response to doping. I suppose it is possible that trans/cis women respond differently to doping, especially androgens.
4. The athlete retained an advantage from pre-transition physiology (and we know people can retain benefits from PEDs for many years after they stop using them)
What are some examples of non-elite athletes suddenly becoming elite post-transition? I don't really follow sports. I know there was a big stink over Fallon Fox competing in the women's division in UFC but she got knocked out. It's just that she was a better fighter than the ones she defeated.

Muscle memory can be retained for awhile even if the muscle mass has dropped. It's like how I have a trans woman friend who used to box and was pretty muscular. She can still beat my *** in a fight but it's not saying much since I've never been in shape in my life or worked out. I've also never been in a fight. So of course she can whoop me. It would be the same if we were both cis, too. However, I have more physical endurance than her.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
What are some examples of non-elite athletes suddenly becoming elite post-transition? I don't really follow sports. I know there was a big stink over Fallon Fox competing in the women's division in UFC but she got knocked out. It's just that she was a better fighter than the ones she defeated.

Actually she wasn't a skilled fighter. She lost to a technical fighter as all Fox had was strength. She won against poor fighters with poor skills due to her strength not skills.
 
What are some examples of non-elite athletes suddenly becoming elite post-transition? I don't really follow sports. I know there was a big stink over Fallon Fox competing in the women's division in UFC but she got knocked out. It's just that she was a better fighter than the ones she defeated.

Rachel McKinnon becomes first transgender woman to win track world title - Cycling Weekly

Laurel Hubbard - Wikipedia

Neither of these women had any track record of competition at an elite men's level pre-transition (although Laurel Hubbard was a successful junior athlete).

There is literally zero chance that Rachel McKinnon could have won a world championship pre-transition. Not only did she do this post-transition, she did it after moving from road to track cycling (like moving from being a non-elite 1500m runner to a world champion 100m sprinter).

Absent any evidence to the contrary, the assumption has to be that she retained an advantage from her pre-transition physiology.

Muscle memory can be retained for awhile even if the muscle mass has dropped. It's like how I have a trans woman friend who used to box and was pretty muscular. She can still beat my *** in a fight but it's not saying much since I've never been in shape in my life or worked out. I've also never been in a fight. So of course she can whoop me. It would be the same if we were both cis, too. However, I have more physical endurance than her.

I agree that the extent to which strength declines over time is not properly understood yet and that longer term studies over 3-5 years would be useful.

Sports like boxing are particularly sensitive due to the risk of serious injury or death and the fact that strength as only one component that may impact risk, other physiological differences (hand, feet, shoulder size, bone density, limb length at weight, maximum size at top weight class, stamina/power output when tired, etc) could make significant differences.

I'm not even sure how you would evaluate such things comprehensively.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Neither of these women had any track record of competition at an elite men's level pre-transition (although
When did Rachel McKinnon transition? I've googled and I can't find it... or any raw race results for her before or after. All my Google searches are dominated by stories about her one masters world championship win.

You apparently have all this, though. Otherwise, how could you justify your claims about her performance?

BTW - about that championship win: it would've like gone differently if McKinnon's main competition - who had beaten her in individual qualifying heats at the meet - hadn't withdrawn because she didn't want to compete against a trans woman:

To be clear, nothing particularly abnormal happened the day of the 200-meter sprint final. The race went off without a hitch, minus the fact that Fader, the leader from the qualifying heats, scratched. Fader argues that she quietly left the competition and didn’t make any sort of fuss about withdrawing. “I didn’t tell a single person besides my husband,” she said. “No one in that arena knew. I told the judges I was taking my daughter to Disneyland.” It was only a few days after the race, when Velonews got in touch, that she decided to give voice to her concerns.
Trans Cyclist Rachel McKinnon on Her World Championship
 
When did Rachel McKinnon transition? I've googled and I can't find it... or any raw race results for her before or after. All my Google searches are dominated by stories about her one masters world championship win.

You apparently have all this, though. Otherwise, how could you justify your claims about her performance?

Thought you didn't care :D

I'm not sure when she transitioned other than some time after 2012, and it's not really that important.

But she has no cycling track record pre-transition, or evidence of elite athletic prowess, which is exactly the point. Elite athletes show signs of being elite athletes before they are in their late 30s.

Track sprinting is a power event and she can produce 1.7kw max peak, and 1.55kw ave peak. 1.8kw is around woman's limit for Olympic gold level, younger, full time professional cyclists (Sarah Fader produces 1.35kw ave peak). As a part-time cyclist and relative novice at track, Rachel McKinnon is very unlikely to have maximised her physical potential in terms of efficiency and technique either (hence losing to significantly less powerful weaker athletes).

According to your view, she was actually disadvantaged by transitioning, yet managed to go from nobody to become a truly elite world champion athlete despite this disadvantage, not because of an advantage.

The real world evidence and overwhelming balance of probabilities (also supported by a more recent study) strongly suggest a residual physiological advantage remains post-transition. Wouldn't you agree?

Or are you going to stick with your opinion that it's more probable a non-elite athlete became elite in her late 30s while operating at a considerable disadvantage?

BTW - about that championship win: it would've like gone differently if McKinnon's main competition - who had beaten her in individual qualifying heats at the meet - hadn't withdrawn because she didn't want to compete against a trans woman:

Wouldn't make any difference to my argument if she won or came 2nd, 3rd, 4th or 5th. It's not only an issue if it's non-elite to champion, but non-elite to elite as this offers evidence of significant residual advantage.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I'm not sure when she transitioned other than some time after 2012, and it's not really that important.

But she has no cycling track record pre-transition, or evidence of elite athletic prowess, which is exactly the point. Elite athletes show signs of being elite athletes before they are in their late 30s.
No cycling track record? I find that hard to believe. I've only ever done 3 (amateur) competitive events myself, but my results are out there.

The fact that you can't find it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

... and if she did only take up competitive cycling post-transition, then it's ridiculous to assume that this says anything about her athletic potential pre-transition.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
There is literally zero chance that Rachel McKinnon could have won a world championship pre-transition. Not only did she do this post-transition, she did it after moving from road to track cycling (like moving from being a non-elite 1500m runner to a world champion 100m sprinter).

Absent any evidence to the contrary, the assumption has to be that she retained an advantage from her pre-transition physiology.
I think you're making too many assumptions here, absent any evidence, as you said. That's not the only assumption you could make.
 
No cycling track record? I find that hard to believe. I've only ever done 3 (amateur) competitive events myself, but my results are out there.

The fact that you can't find it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Whether or not she competed in low level races pre-transition or not is largely irrelevant. She didn't compete in any high level races of the kind that would signal potential to be world champion.

... and if she did only take up competitive cycling post-transition, then it's ridiculous to assume that this says anything about her athletic potential pre-transition.

It's ridiculous to assume that someone with the mind-blowing athletic potential to become world champion a couple of years after taking up a popular sport while operating at a significant disadvantage might well have shown this mind-blowing athletic potential at some point in the previous 4 decades of their life? :rolleyes:

Who knows, perhaps she would have been men's world champion had she not transitioned, who can prove she wouldn't...

And we should read nothing into the fact that it just happened to be in the specific event where residual strength advantages post-transition would make the most difference. Pure coincidence.

You might judge it more probable that she suddenly discovered she happened to be one of the greatest athletes in the world in her mid-30s. Then was so supremely talented she managed to beat the competition in a sport she had just taken up despite operating at a significant disadvantage to her cisgender competitors for biological (and likely also technical reasons) and thus operating at least a fair bit below her true potential. I certainly don't though.

Anyway, we won't agree on this, but at least we know time will tell who is right and whether or not my ridiculous assumptions were in fact perfectly rational.

Do you genuinely think the probabilities favour your position though? If you had the opportunity to bet, at even money, whether or not some transwomen retain a relative physical advantage post-transition, would you actually bet that they are in fact disadvantaged (or at least not advantaged)?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Whether or not she competed in low level races pre-transition or not is largely irrelevant. She didn't compete in any high level races of the kind that would signal potential to be world champion.
I haven't been able to find her competition at all (mostly because her Google results are filled with stories about this one event). How did you do it?
It's ridiculous to assume that someone with the mind-blowing athletic potential to become world champion a couple of years after taking up a popular sport while operating at a significant disadvantage might well have shown this mind-blowing athletic potential at some point in the previous 4 decades of their life?
Didn't they? I have no idea. How did you determine whether she did or didn't?

You say "several years;" what year did she start cycling? Please be specific and say how you know.

I haven't been able to find her "dead name" to see what results she might have out there from before she transitioned. Have you?

And if you haven't, how can you possibly claim to know anything about how "elite" she might have been pre-transition?

And she was world champion for her age group in a Masters competition. How often does it happen that a cis athlete has their first major success - in their age category, at least - in Masters competition? I have no idea... but you apparently do. How often does this happen, and how do you know?

Do you genuinely think the probabilities favour your position though?

My position is that you're talking out of your butt: that you're speaking from ignorance about things that you don't have any way of knowing. I think you did a pretty good job of demonstrating my position for me.
 
I haven't been able to find her competition at all (mostly because her Google results are filled with stories about this one event). How did you do it?

Cycling records sites.

For example: Rachel Mckinnon

I haven't been able to find her "dead name" to see what results she might have out there from before she transitioned. Have you?

Rhys

And if you haven't, how can you possibly claim to know anything about how "elite" she might have been pre-transition?

Probability based on a large amount of available evidence.

My position is that you're talking out of your butt: that you're speaking from ignorance about things that you don't have any way of knowing. I think you did a pretty good job of demonstrating my position for me.

Fortunately, experience tells me not to put too much stock in your position :D

Anyway, we will be able to tell in the not too distant future if I am talking out of my butt from ignorance and conceit or whether you hold to a very naive view of what constitutes evidence and are not quite as astute as you think you are.

Time will tell. Feel free to hold me to account if science shows you to be right and I'll happily acknowledge my errors, and if it shows me to be right you can try to work out why you were so wrong again ;)
 
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