Should Satanists work on their public image?

[LuisDantas]

This is a fork from a LHP DIR thread. My last post on it is fully reproduced bellow.

(Gotta tell you, it is a bit scary to try to reply and at the same time avoid a debate. I am thinking seriously about opening a new thread elsewhere)

Satanism and satanists exist in the mind of the brainwashed sheep who call themselves Christians to pass the guilt onto. If ever something bad happens its not, "i made a mistake," its "the devil made me do it." Whenever something goes down its "damn those satanic kids" not "we have a serious social issue." Its all to easy to blame satanism because thats all the church has done for centuries. Until a while ago the only way to solve the problem of anti-christianization was with a shield and sword.

I don't really disagree with that. Although it does make me wonder why Satanists do exist by that name. Sincere and well-motivated as your rejection of hypocrosy seems to be, it seems at times to be mixed with a bit of desire for needling the offenders. Yes, I find that easily understandable, even easy to relate to.

These days, pathetic and petty slander is thrown at us because we resent christianity, the cancer that is a social norm. Its drilled into the heads of our children the same way it was drilled into us in that God is Good, Church is good, everything else is bad and you will suffer eternally if you do not play our petty little game. Only something like 10% have enough sense to break our programming and realise the true and sick values of our Christian "friends."

There is a bit of a risk of feeding such prejudices when one shows disdain by adopting labels such as "satanist", IMO. Then again, for all I know there is a real and important need for creating such emotional shock. Perhaps it is even a first, needed step of fast-starting the critical capability of some.

To address Mr. LuisDantas a little more specifically;

What does satanism stand to gain by making itself appealing to the outside world? A larger cult following?

IMO? Less prejudice coming your way, faster and less traumatic self-questioning coming from your supposed opposite numbers, and ultimately a world that much more rid of the hypocrisy that you rightfully abbhor so much.

Of course, it is a tricky thing to dose. Try too hard and you fall into some of the very traps you're avoiding (as you note bellow).

This is how Christianity started, a look at the horrors that little cult inflicted on our poor world. Satanism isn't about spreading the word of satan, its about being what you want to be without care for the social trends.

I really should open an external thread to comment this I hope to do so and to meet you there, pal. Stay tuned.

We can worry about other things rather than "would God agree with this," "what does the bible say about >insert issue." No, thats useless, every situation is different. The bible's wisdom is limited.

Speaking for myself, I fully expect most Christians to eventually reach those very same conclusions and change Christian practice accordingly. It has even started already, albeit in a frustratingly timid manner.

With self-respect and self-awareness one can make confident decisions for themselves. We are leaders not followers. We make decisions based on our own experience not the experience of some Roman 2000 years ago. We trust ourselves to make these decisions as that is what our path teaches. Be yourself, be as powerful as you can be for yourself only, for the next man is just as likely to befriend you as he is to stab you in the back when it comes to the crunch.

I think I see the appeal of such a view. On the other hand, it seems to be a bit naive in its own way. It certainly has its own risks, albeit very different and often preferable ones over those of the sheep / flock mentality.

The love the Christian people preach is conditional. You have to meet standards to warrant their love. That is not love, thats picking and choosing. Satanism is a bit more realistic. Love those who are loyal, but be aware of your enemies and don't show mercy, for mercy is weakness. Man is just as likely to accept a truce and stab you in the back as you turn away.

I don't know if any of that made sense but hey, ill leave Christianity alone now for a while.

I'm neither Christian nor Satanist, so I guess I will create a new thread already. See you there (I hope)

 

[blackout]

Should Satanists work on their public image?

Nah.

What kind of public image would you suggest "they" adopt Luis?

 

[darkendless]

I do enjoy a needling often; a bit here and a bit there

Please don't take me as the "voice of satanism." I used to be involved and did a lot of reading, i do not consider myself a satanist, i just live with many of the values and ideals.

To be honest with you, i think the advertising satanism gets the less respect it will earn. Satanism as i and many others who are much wiser than I have said is the scapegoat for christianity and all other God fearing religions. The concept of satan from my view is punishment for rejecting the law sent down by God. Without installing "fear"of satanism, the church will not be able to control its followers so to speak, especially newer members. They may think if they have nothing to fear, whats the point?
I think prejudice is unavoidable, fundamentalists aren't going to change their mind about satanism and why would they? They don't have a reason to embrace new cults because it underminds their core beliefs. They happy in their world and so be it. I think opposition to god is the best satanism or what ever you want to call it can hope for. From what i've experienced it represents a presents an alternative path to worshipping a God and following a book like Law.

Extremem satanism is naive, one can always hope to reach a happy medium. You don't want to be too arrogant, but being confident in your own decisions is always useful.

Since this is a debate, say what you want to say mate, even if you said it in the DIR i don't mind, just speak your mind

 

[Breathe]

Hmmm, tough question, since Satanism is broad and encompasses from Theistic to Atheistic; I'm going to respond to Atheistic, since I wrote about it just.

Since we know most Satanists are atheists, the easiest way for them to work on their image, I guess, is getting the name of their beliefs changed, I guess.

Satanism has connotations of worshipping the devil, and thus, worshipping what is considered to be evil - it's no wonder [misguided] folks, both religious and secular, are concerned and will pick on people with that belief system - Satanism, in their minds, means that they are worshippers of evil, and thus evil themselves.

It's sad, but true. When most people learn what Satanism is, they are much more understanding, but then they are often left with one question: Why is it called Satanism?

As for Theistic Satanism, good luck with that one! :cover: They need to work on their image, but I doubt they will be accepted for their beliefs any time soon because of the connotation of evil that goes with their name. Who in the right mind would come out in public and say "Yup, yup, I'm a Satanist - I worship Satan - but" - they'd be cut off before "but"!

Also, since Christianity is being less and less liked in some areas, Satanism may be liked for a while by the rebellious and the anti-Christian, but soon disliked as well - after all, it will still have many parallels with Christianity, and thus, will probably be considered a horrible thing.

This is my opinion, I may not be right, but I was called a 'Devil Worshipper' throughout years of school, despite whenever being asked, saying "Um, no. I'm an atheist". Ironically, it was the atheists of the class who despised me 'for being a devil worshipper'™. NOT the theists!

 

[Caladan]

I believe the 'problem' is that Satanism advocates (in theory at least) individualism, so its difficult to hold all the different types of Satanists accountable for the popularistic bad rep some enthusiasts give to 'Satanism'.

there are independent Satanists, the world will never hear about, the kind that might not listen to Black Metal, but enjoy Wagner..

 

[darkendless]

I believe the 'problem' is that Satanism advocates (in theory at least) individualism, so its difficult to hold all the different types of Satanists accountable for the popularistic bad rep some enthusiasts give to 'Satanism'.

there are independent Satanists, the world will never hear about, the kind that might not listen to Black Metal, but enjoy Wagner..

Agreed but its all to easy to generalise and badmouth the little goth kids with the rest of the lot who don't know who Dimmu Borgir is and have never read anything by Varg Vikernes.
Church burning in Norway is an example, the satanic community was accused not just a few radicals who did too much LSD.

 

[blackout]

I believe the 'problem' is that Satanism advocates (in theory at least) individualism, so its difficult to hold all the different types of Satanists accountable for the popularistic bad rep some enthusiasts give to 'Satanism'.

there are independent Satanists, the world will never hear about, the kind that might not listen to Black Metal, but enjoy Wagner..

Exactly! "To thine Own Self be True".
Some "Selves" prefer Classical *or even jazz*
to Black Metal.
Though that may be hard to fathom... or believe... I know...

The Scary truth of it all is...
you never know WHO might really be a Satanist!
They might be ALL around you...
and youd never ever know it.
They could look like just about.. well... anybody!

Sneaky.

 

[LuisDantas]

Nah.

What kind of public image would you suggest "they" adopt Luis?

That is quite obviously a personal matter. I am not so much suggesting a change as wondering what the appeal of the current situation is.

 

[LuisDantas]

I do enjoy a needling often; a bit here and a bit there

Please don't take me as the "voice of satanism." I used to be involved and did a lot of reading, i do not consider myself a satanist, i just live with many of the values and ideals.

I take it that your situation is not exactly rare, and may in fact be the most common. Not that I'm demanding orthodoxy or anything, mind you...

To be honest with you, i think the advertising satanism gets the less respect it will earn.

Agreed, except perhaps in a very face-to-face level.

Satanism as i and many others who are much wiser than I have said is the scapegoat for christianity and all other God fearing religions. The concept of satan from my view is punishment for rejecting the law sent down by God. Without installing "fear"of satanism, the church will not be able to control its followers so to speak, especially newer members. They may think if they have nothing to fear, whats the point?

That is what puzzles me a bit. A scapegoat usually wants to no longer be one. Sometimes I think that deep down the adoption of such a label as "Satanism" is indeed an attempt at shaking Christians a bit and perhaps making their thought proccesses a bit more flexible.

If so, I can see the appeal. At the same time, I have doubts about the results.

I think prejudice is unavoidable, fundamentalists aren't going to change their mind about satanism and why would they?

Because they're people and it is sad that they keep missing so many opportunities for a better mental picture of the world. Many of them are in a sorry path, even if they don't realize that.

But you know that already, don't you?

They don't have a reason to embrace new cults because it underminds their core beliefs. They happy in their world and so be it.

I can't help but think that such a stance is a bit too short-sighted. Closed beliefs are dangerous for everyone, both believers and "outsiders". Troublesome as it is, respectful dialog and understanding must be sought.

I think opposition to god is the best satanism or what ever you want to call it can hope for. From what i've experienced it represents a presents an alternative path to worshipping a God and following a book like Law.

That bit I don't quite understand. Alternative path for what? For living and attaining emotional stability, perhaps? If so, then that is probably way better than attempting to be a Christian due to social pressure, yet still far poorer than actually having their respect.

Ill will is not something to be idly accepted IMNSHO.

Extremem satanism is naive, one can always hope to reach a happy medium. You don't want to be too arrogant, but being confident in your own decisions is always useful.

Agreed. So you make a strong association between the opposition to God (or to the belief in God) and the search for a solid self-confidence and self-knowledge? It seems to me that on the one hand this gives the God idea entirely too much importance (God is not real enough to be worth the effort of rejecting him), and on the other one it may be jumping the gun. After all, god believers need self-confidence as much as anyone else.

I am firmly convinced that deep down the differences are over-valued and even a bit silly. Select some Christians that aren't so superstitious and there is probably good common ground for developing an understanding that bypasses all this "belief in god" nonsense and focuses in actual people and actual results. I guess I like the idea of that admitedly nightmarish challenge more than that of what is at least superficially the forming of a ghetto mentality. Ghettos tend to be hard to defuse once formed, and we all are poorer for that.

Since this is a debate, say what you want to say mate, even if you said it in the DIR i don't mind, just speak your mind

I know you don't. Others, however, might, including the administrators

 

[LuisDantas]

It's sad, but true. When most people learn what Satanism is, they are much more understanding, but then they are often left with one question: Why is it called Satanism?

Precisely. Apparently it is due to a desire to stress the opposition to Christianism and other "traditional" religions - or, more exactly, to the mentality of powerlessness and victimization that often creeps into them.

As for Theistic Satanism, good luck with that one! :cover: They need to work on their image, but I doubt they will be accepted for their beliefs any time soon because of the connotation of evil that goes with their name. Who in the right mind would come out in public and say "Yup, yup, I'm a Satanist - I worship Satan - but" - they'd be cut off before "but"!

That's arguably an even more intriguing question.

Also, since Christianity is being less and less liked in some areas, Satanism may be liked for a while by the rebellious and the anti-Christian, but soon disliked as well - after all, it will still have many parallels with Christianity, and thus, will probably be considered a horrible thing.

Defining oneself as the "counter" to something has strong disadvantages indeed, not least of them the need for that something to exist and be clearly defined in order to avoid a crisis of identity.

I'm beggining to suspect that a main, deep drive of Satanism is the desire to shake some sense into the heads of the most extremely stubborn Christians.

This is my opinion, I may not be right, but I was called a 'Devil Worshipper' throughout years of school, despite whenever being asked, saying "Um, no. I'm an atheist". Ironically, it was the atheists of the class who despised me 'for being a devil worshipper'™. NOT the theists!

Theists often don't have much of a problem in believing that those who reject God are due to some ugly and deserved hardships. We atheists often find the notion objectionable, for reasons that should be obvious, and would rather break the prejudice than accept it.

 

[darkendless]

Well i find it highly amusing when people use "the devil made me do it" as an excuse. Its pathetic. I know better than that and will accept my mistakes, so if they have to have a scapegoat shame on them for being so petty. It doesn't bother me. I don't think the results are all that important, some things just don't change.

Sure fundamentalists are missing out, but as long as they're content who are we to preach for them to see the light?

I may have a short-sited view, but im speaking of whats in front of me. I do not close my mind to change, i would welcome. But realistically in my mind at least, no one will change. I believe pride contibutes a lot as well as brainwashed values and morals.

Satanism can be what ever you want it to be. In the post i was speaking about a lifestyle. It does not require a book to read every night or a God to pray to. You make the rules, for yourself.

I think both sides are to proud to come to an agreement, who wants to give ground to a system they cannot stand???

 

[LuisDantas]

Agreed but its all to easy to generalise and badmouth the little goth kids with the rest of the lot who don't know who Dimmu Borgir is and have never read anything by Varg Vikernes.
Church burning in Norway is an example, the satanic community was accused not just a few radicals who did too much LSD.

Well, that's the problem with labels. They are just too encompassing and simplistic. There are always a few rotten apples in any garden, and it is not fair either to generalize nor to ignore the problems.

Yet, labels are also a supposedly conscious choice, at least with such an undeniably individualistic doctrine as Satanism. Claiming exceptionality alone is not a very good answer for misguided acts. Not for Christians, not for Satanists, not for anyone.

I don't doubt the claim of valuing individuality, but it still seems to me that it is much like valuing one's left leg: it is all fine and dandy, but quite pointless without taking the other side as well. Being one's own person is quite fair and needed, but not very satisfatory without the capability of sharing with society. Frustrating as it may be to actually attempt it, we must.

 

[LuisDantas]

Well i find it highly amusing when people use "the devil made me do it" as an excuse. Its pathetic.

Indeed. Pathetic and rather sad.

I know better than that and will accept my mistakes, so if they have to have a scapegoat shame on them for being so petty. It doesn't bother me. I don't think the results are all that important, some things just don't change.

Sure fundamentalists are missing out, but as long as they're content who are we to preach for them to see the light?

I don't know that we particularly need to be anyone. Do we?

I may have a short-sighted view, but im speaking of what's in front of me. I do not close my mind to change, i would welcome. But realistically in my mind at least, no one will change. I believe pride contibutes a lot as well as brainwashed values and morals.

It is difficult, but change does happen. That's why we are now only a step away from legal recognition of same sex marriages, to say nothing of the dissolution of slavery and ethnic prejudices of the past.

Such changes are completely worth the trouble. And the change of mentality among Christians so that they don't effectively condemn themselves is worth the trouble, too. Don't you think so?

Satanism can be what ever you want it to be. In the post i was speaking about a lifestyle. It does not require a book to read every night or a God to pray to. You make the rules, for yourself.

Is it really much different for anyone else?

I think both sides are to proud to come to an agreement, who wants to give ground to a system they cannot stand???

People who would rather breed understanding and acceptance than fear and strangement, I suppose.

Edit - case in point:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/current-events/73764-iran-arrests-satan-ism.html

 

[darkendless]

Indeed. Pathetic and rather sad.


I don't know that we particularly need to be anyone. Do we?


It is difficult, but change does happen. That's why we are now only a step away from legal recognition of same sex marriages, to say nothing of the dissolution of slavery and ethnic prejudices of the past.

Such changes are completely worth the trouble. And the change of mentality among Christians so that they don't effectively condemn themselves is worth the trouble, too. Don't you think so?



Is it really much different for anyone else?



People who would rather breed understanding and acceptance than fear and strangement, I suppose.

Edit - case in point:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/current-events/73764-iran-arrests-satan-ism.html

I think if we be ourselves thats all we can ask for. Sure there will be people who influence us, but making our own decisions that will benefit us rather than a system of beliefs is in my opinion much more satasfying. I think preaching to the preachers will achieve nothing.Take Prop 8, some people vote yes because the church told them so. I would vote no because i believe everyone should be able to marry based on love not standards.

Change does happen, but not without a fight. My fear is that change is legal only, to satasfy the leaders rather than acceptance with conviction. I mean people still preach hatred towards Black people. You can change it on paper but mental mindsets never change, and if they do, its over lifetimes.

I think its worthwhile but futile. Its all well and good to preach for the greater good but realistically people will resist change for a multitude of reasons. Once again pride is a huge reason. After what i've said do you think it would be easy and more so pro0bable that i would accept anything to do with Christianity?. People take pride in their religion and ill go out on a limb and say that probably 75% of people would rather move to a remote island than blend the morals of Christianity and Satanism and i doubt more than 1% os our Islamic friends would be willing to accept any form of satanism whether it benefits them or not. I can see what you're saying, im just sceptical since in approximately 1700 years since Constantine brought Christianity to prominance only a few (documented) changes have occured inside the church. Often these changes were reversed follwoing the passing/deposition of their implimentor.

Within Christianity (on here i see it a lot as well) people will say "if you don't believe such and such, then you are not >insert religion<." Satanism cannot be accused of the same petty little games. I doubt any satanist on this forum has the same mindset.

 

[Breathe]

Precisely. Apparently it is due to a desire to stress the opposition to Christianism and other "traditional" religions - or, more exactly, to the mentality of powerlessness and victimization that often creeps into them.

I agree.

That's arguably an even more intriguing question.

Let me know if you want to pursue such a topic!

Defining oneself as the "counter" to something has strong disadvantages indeed, not least of them the need for that something to exist and be clearly defined in order to avoid a crisis of identity.

I'm beggining to suspect that a main, deep drive of Satanism is the desire to shake some sense into the heads of the most extremely stubborn Christians.

I think that is what happened with LaVeyan Satanism; LaVey chose the name "Satanism" to shock. There is no "Satan" within Satanism, only the empowerment of oneself, which is actually admirable - it should be named something akin to "strong hedonism", or something! But Satanism, hmmm.

Theists often don't have much of a problem in believing that those who reject God are due to some ugly and deserved hardships. We atheists often find the notion objectionable, for reasons that should be obvious, and would rather break the prejudice than accept it.

Hmm, maybe I didn't explain myself. I was called a 'Devil Worshipper' throughout school, even though I was atheist. If asked if I was a 'Devil Worshipper', I'd say "No, I'm an atheist - I don't BELIEVE in God OR the devil". The atheists of the class (an awful lot of them!), however, could not accept it and continued to call me a Devil Worshipper and were complete jackasses to me, but the Christians in the class didn't bother. I guess it's because they listened to what I had to say about the matter.

 

[doppelganger]

To me, the defining characteristic of Satanism is the celebration of self-interest as the highest (and maybe the only) virtue, and a corresponding denial of feelings of inter-relatedness and connectedness and mutual struggle between us.

In that sense, Satanism already has many major public image face lifts. One is Ayn Rand's Objectivism, which is the religion of former FED chairman Alan Greenspan. The other is the political philosophy of modern "Conservativism" which overlaps significantly with Rand and even Christianity with people like Ann Coulter, James Dobson and the current President.

 

[LuisDantas]

Maybe I dislike Satanism after all, then

Or maybe not. I haven't made my mind up about Objectivism either.

 

[LuisDantas]

Let me know if you want to pursue such a topic!

I guess I do. I'm not even sure. Theistic Satanism (Luciferianism?) is quite a puzzle to me. How is it even possible? I have no idea.

I think that is what happened with LaVeyan Satanism; LaVey chose the name "Satanism" to shock. There is no "Satan" within Satanism, only the empowerment of oneself, which is actually admirable - it should be named something akin to "strong hedonism", or something! But Satanism, hmmm.

To be fair, self-empowerment has its own pitfalls. LaVeyan Satanism is no more admirable just because it has such a value than Christianity would be just because it preaches expansive love and sacrifice.

Also, one can't help but wonder just how seriously LaVey wanted to be taken. Apparently not much.

Hmm, maybe I didn't explain myself. I was called a 'Devil Worshipper' throughout school, even though I was atheist. If asked if I was a 'Devil Worshipper', I'd say "No, I'm an atheist - I don't BELIEVE in God OR the devil". The atheists of the class (an awful lot of them!), however, could not accept it and continued to call me a Devil Worshipper and were complete jackasses to me, but the Christians in the class didn't bother. I guess it's because they listened to what I had to say about the matter.

Uh? Why would atheists just pick on one of their own like that? Something must have made you stand out somehow.

 

[lamplighter]

Concerning the OP, I don't think there's much that can be done unless they changed the very name itself, but that'd be pointless in the end, Satanist would still be associated with what they used to call themself still, and I don't think a self respecting Satanist would change the name of there beliefs to appease someone else anyway. I would say more could be done to denounce the little goth kids who are ruining it, but because the main theme of Satanism being rebellion and also it's name, it's always going to attract unwanted fanatics and posers who don't really understand or care what Satanism is really about, continue having their public circles saying "**** God" in all of their glorious teenage angst, meanwhile turning away Theists and Atheists who might have been otherwise sympathetic to what Satanism really is. Finally, I think the abolition or total reform of the COS would probably be for the best, seems to be a hypocrisy IMO, and would probably do the most in improving the image of Satanism. I don't think there's anything wrong with an organization that promotes Satanism, or tries to increase the number even, but I don't think someone has to pay to be considered a true Satanist, or there being some kind of hierarchy in the COS itself, other than a democratically determined group of people who organize events in the COS and publish the Satanic Bible. I don't think Satanist become so to be part of a group, but if the COS was say holding a Halloween party, wouldn't you go to have some fun and share ideas with like minded people?

 

[LuisDantas]

I would say more could be done to denounce the little goth kids who are ruining it, but because the main theme of Satanism being rebellion and also it's name, it's always going to attract unwanted fanatics and posers who don't really understand or care what Satanism is really about, continue having their public circles saying "**** God" in all of their glorious teenage angst, meanwhile turning away Theists and Atheists who might have been otherwise sympathetic to what Satanism really is.

And in this regard at least, it is very much a religion like any other. Fanatics and posers are a fairly serious problem anywhere, and a good argument on how it is a good thing for religions to be divided and questioned.

(...) I don't think Satanist become so to be part of a group, but if the COS was say holding a Halloween party, wouldn't you go to have some fun and share ideas with like minded people?

I am fairly curious about how like-minded Satanists are among themselves. It _is_ an individualistic doctrine, after all. All the same, yours is a good point.

In the end, I suppose it is a matter of choosing which risks to take.