Sex Before Marriage

[dan]

Here's the statement I was defending:

Relationships are stronger and more rewarding when people are married, and they wait till marriage to have sex.

Here's what I got from the three pages you provided:

-Born again Christians are just as likely to divorce as non-Christians, despite not coinhabiting.

I'm not arguing that atheists get divorced more often than Christians. I'm not arguing that Mormons are the best at marriage. I accept the facts that your statistics show, but they have nothing to do with this thread. They have only to do with religion.

My statement has nothing to do with religion. It has only to do with the strength of the bonds of intimacy that are developed when a couple abstains from sex until marriage. My stats and my original argument are based solely on human nature. My statistics show that pre-marital sex creates more failed marriages and failed cohabitations. Your statistics don't even address pre-marital sex, and they don't address failed cohabitations. They address the affects of cohabitation, which statistics you dismissed as not in keeping with the subject when I presented them (despite the fact that they had nothing to do with religion, and yours have only to do with religion). You also assume that because someone is a "born-again" Christian that means they abstain from sex before marriage, but that is very untrue. If you don't assume that then you shouldn't call your stats convincing of anything. Many Mormons don't abstain from sex before marriage, and many LDS folks sealed in the Temple had sex before they got married. NOne of this has anythign to do with my point.

Once again, I believe that no one has even addressed my above statement. If you believe I am in error then please explain why, but please don't send me on a goose chase. Tell me why I'm wrong and point me to the stats, don't just tell me to get the stats and the conclusion will be obvious. My argument, once again:

Relationships are stronger and more rewarding when people are married, and they wait till marriage to have sex.

 

[Buttons*]

Relationships are stronger and more rewarding when people are married, and they wait till marriage to have sex.

from your point of view, yes.

 

[dan]

And all the statistics that man has ever compiled on the subject corroborate my statement. This is exactly what I said earlier. I prove my claim and you guys go, "Nu-uh."

 

[linwood]

And all the statistics that man has ever compiled on the subject corroborate my statement. This is exactly what I said earlier. I prove my claim and you guys go, "Nu-uh."

What stats are these?
Maybe I missed them, this thread seems to be moving rather quickly.

If you`ve posted them point them out to me.

Sexuality and marriage are a study of mine for reasons beyond what we`re discussing here and I`ve never seen stats that would corroborate what your stating.

 

[dan]

This is one study I was interested in. It mentions cohabitation, but the main argument here is pre-marital sex. It's hard to find studies about pre-maritatal sex that don't mention cohabitation.

"Those who are sexually active before marriage are much more likely to divorce.
A study of 2,746 women in the National Survey of Family Growth performed by Dr. Kahn of the University of Maryland and Dr. London of the National Center for Health Statistics found that nonvirgin brides increase their odds of divorce by about 60%. Some would argue that cohabitation does not automatically mean that sex is taking place. However, cohabitation and sexual relations are related or that there is a strong correlation between them. Sex usually does accompany cohabitation (de Neui n.d.); Webster's Dictionary, in fact, defines cohabitation as "living together as or as if husband and wife." If cohabitants live together like "husband and wife," having sex is a very reasonable expectation. Therefore, the assumption is made throughout this writing (granting some occasional exceptions) that cohabitants do have sexual relations.
Those who have had premarital sex are more likely to have extramarital affairs as well.
Premarital sexual attitudes and behavior do not change after one marries; if a woman lives with a man before marriage, she is more likely to cheat on him after marriage. Research indicates that if one is willing to experience sex before marriage, a higher level of probability exists that one will do the same afterwards. This is especially true for women; those who engaged in sex before marriage are more than twice as likely to have extramarital affairs as those who did not have premarital sex. When it comes to staying faithful, married partners have higher rates of loyalty every time. One study, done over a 5-year period, reported in Sexual Attitudes and Lifestyles indicates 90% of married women were monogamous, compared to 60% of cohabiting women. Statistics were even more dramatic with male faithfulness: 90% of married men remained true to their brides, while only 43% of cohabiting men stayed true to their partner (Ciavola 1997). In another study published in the Journal of Marriage and the Family researchers analyzed the relationships of 1,235 women, ages 20 to 37, and found that women that had cohabited before marriage were 3.3 times more likely to have a secondary sex partner after marriage (Forste and Tanfer 1996:33-47). It was also found that married women were "5 times less likely to have a secondary sex partner than cohabiting women" and that "cohabiting relationships appeared to be more similar to dating relationships than to marriage.
Those having premarital sex may be fooled into marrying a person who is not right for them.
Sex can emotionally blind. Real love can stand the test of time without the support of physical intimacy. "If you establish a mutually satisfying sexual relationship, you lose objectivity and actually cheat on the test of time. The only way to rationally decide whether your love is for keeps is to remove any preoccupation with eros, sexual love. Otherwise you may marry a mirage, not a person you really know."

 

[dan]

If you'd like to learn more about cohabitation you can read the entirety of this study at:

http://www.leaderu.com/critical/cohabitation-socio.html

 

[Quiddity]

If you'd like to learn more about cohabitation you can read the entirety of this study at:

http://www.leaderu.com/critical/cohabitation-socio.html

Excellent source...

 

[dan]

I'm glad you like it. I am now awating the response of my detractors.

 

[linwood]

I'm glad you like it. I am now awating the response of my detractors.

Thank you for the sources.

They do support the statement that pre-marital sex leads to higher divorce rates.
I concede that point.

However more recent studies that have been analized for other possible reasons break down the contributing factors much farther than simple cohabitation.

CDC Cohabitation Divorce/Marriage study (PDF file)

An abstract of the CDC report..

- Many of the media reports about the study exaggerate the link between cohabitation and divorce. The study found a small difference (9%) in the rate of divorce in the first ten years for spouses who cohabited before marriage compared to those who didn't. However, many other studies find that most or all of this link is explained by the differences between the kinds of people who cohabit and those who don't. Since most couples who marry today are already living together, those who don't are a more religious, conservative group with different divorce patterns. As sociologist Judith Seltzer wrote in a 2000 article in the Journal of Marriage and the Family, "Claims that individuals who cohabit before marriage hurt their chances of a good marriage pay too little attention to this evidence."

Continued at link

Another study recently completed by Sociologist Jay Teachman at the University of Washington and published in The Journal of Marriage and Family under the title.. "Premarital Sex, Premarital Cohabitation, and the Risk
of Subsequent Marital Dissolution Among” (PDF File)shows that those women who cohabitate with their future husband are no more or less likely to divorce than those who wait for marriage.

This study seems to me to have the same flaws of earlier studies though which fail to take account of any other factors besides cohabitation itself.
I take it with a grain of salt.

In essence it is not the cohabitation that has bearing on the divorce rate but the age, income, and moral beliefs of those who get married in the first place.
In fact the studies that show astronomical divorce rates for those who marry young (under 25) is strong evidence for cohabitation and waiting for marriage.

 

[dan]

I appreciate your honesty and maturity. I apologize for getting a little too amped earlier.

I agree with the assertions made from your information, and I would contend that the predominant attitude that sex is for recreation is largely responsible for a lot of these trends. I feel that a more reverent perspective would reduce a lot of young marriages and a lot of divorces. There are many who feel that abstinance is an impossible thing to expect from our youth, but I've seen it work and I believe it really is the best way.

There are many different ethical frameworks from which to draw conclusions about the role of sex in our lives, but I wanted to show here that a utilitarian, consequestialist, objectivist, virtue or, of course, divine command perspective on morality will favor waiting over pre-marital sex. I've been interested in the moral code that others subscribe to that they believe justifies pre-marital sex, but the only comprehensive code I've gotten is "If it harms someone it's bad." Which is fallacious as well as grossly inadequate. I can understand how moral relativism can justify it, but I feel moral relativism is a joke. I believe in absolute truth, and I believe morality should be universal.

Deontological ethics could justify it if you could produce evidence that pre-marital sex is a right or duty. I try to prove myself wrong whenever I reach a conclusion, but that one would take way too long.

 

[dan]

Anyone else with a comment?

 

[Buttons*]

Anyone else with a comment?

haha, sounds like you're waiting for people to pick a fight with you

 

[dan]

Yes and no. I really do want to hear what people have to say about my last post, but at the same time I am wondering where the amoral people with all the rock hard convictions about monkey loving have wandered off to. Only one person had the juevos to say they respected my argument. Everyone else participates only until they see no way to win and then they just go away. It's an easy way to avoid looking foolish but without really conceding anything.

 

[mingmty]

I did read the statics you shared with us dan and did a quick research on the responsible of such study, at first I was a little skeptic because you linked a christian website which could make it biased, but after my research found that the investigation was serious and the results truthful.

What linwood shared also was insightful, I guess multiple factors are responsible for failed marriages. I think that is easy to misinterpret what already has been found because the subject is quite complex.

I'm glad this conversation got informative at last, now I have new stuff to think about, is a shame you have to be so offensive, this forum is about tolerance and your aggression is quite useless, seems like you like more to fight than to chat which is really sad, but underneath your remarks there are good sources

A last comment: When I said marriage was a human (social measure) invention I only was replying to someone who said marriage was god's master plan, if it really were god's master plan then persons had been getting married since the beginning of humanity, but they didn't, marriage was started when society begun. Don't misinterpret me, I think marriage should be protected and practiced for we are cultural beings and it is the root of culture itself... But I disagree with it being god's advice. (Leave the monkeys alone, at least they aren't destroying the planet we share )

 

[Buttons*]

Yes and no. I really do want to hear what people have to say about my last post, but at the same time I am wondering where the amoral people with all the rock hard convictions about monkey loving have wandered off to.

Some people have just had enough. Kinda like some of the LDS members did.

Only one person had the juevos to say they respected my argument. Everyone else participates only until they see no way to win and then they just go away. It's an easy way to avoid looking foolish but without really conceding anything.

I have no problem saying that the information you provided is legit. And if you had been more respectful to others from the beginning, i think more people would have said they respected YOUR argument later on.

 

[turk179]

Some people have just had enough. Kinda like some of the LDS members did.


I have no problem saying that the information you provided is legit. And if you had been more respectful to others from the beginning, i think more people would have said they respected YOUR argument later on.

I agree with Buttons on this. I lost all interest after the insults started flying dan. This is a very good indication of a week argument. You had some very good points with some excellent research with your last few posts but your ability to respect other people is severely lacking whether you agree with their argument or not. So forgive those of us that decide to leave a debate because things become a little to personal.

 

[dan]

I lost all interest after the insults started flying dan. This is a very good indication of a week argument. You had some very good points with some excellent research with your last few posts but your ability to respect other people is severely lacking whether you agree with their argument or not. So forgive those of us that decide to leave a debate because things become a little to personal.

If people are gonna mock my faith and my beliefs just because they like to have pre-marital sex then they better be able to take it when I bite back. I understand that a lot of people don't read through every single post on a thread (I certainly don't), but don't insult my religion and then cry when I tell you you can't hold an argument.

Very interesting tale of an ex mormons wedding day.

More at the link, it`s a quick but informative read.
Enjoy!

"We were pushed out of the sealing room by the sealer in order to avail the room to the next couple already waiting. Cycle time between weddings was about 20 or so minutes, it seemed. We walked down a long hallway to the temple grounds where my parents were waiting. Of course, my mom was crying and not tears of joy. My dad said I looked pretty. I felt horrible. I will never forget that sick feeling in my stomach as long as I live. We got our pictures taken on the steps of the temple, after waiting our turn behind several other couples. It was a wedding factory. We were nothing like the happy couple (one happy couple as opposed to a dozen or more) coming out of the church with crowds of loved ones throwing rice or confetti I had always envisioned."

This is aimed only at offending someone. Me telling someone they suck at debate is my opinion. If it's not true then why would someone get offended? I was brought up to believe that I had control over my own feelings. If you let someone take control of your emotions maybe you shouldn't be here.

I'm not going to behave as an ancient social practice dictate when I can enjoy my short life feeling alive. Not having sex before marriage is a social human conduct, nothing more.

I asked you to account for this assertion and you did not.

You talk a lot of **** and don't backup it with anything usefull but your own intolerant point of view, I am an engineer and have studied physics, chemistry and many other scientific related topics with excellence awards. I'm way more qualified to speak about science than you and your stubbornness only shows intolerance and offensive remarks to me and everybody else.

Perhaps I talk a lot of **** about things that I know about and you just don't listen. I'll say it the same way I've said it many times before (but you didn't listen then either) the world inside your head is a lot different then the world around you. Make a little better attempt to reconcile the two and you won't get so butt-hurt about people telling you you're wrong.

I'm done talking with you, you are a lost case, go and enjoy your life and ***** to whoever doesn't agree with you.

That's the mark of self-righteous indignation and hypocricy: answering offensive words with even more offensive words. If I'm wrong to call you out it doesn't make you right to reciprocate with harsher language.

You have not attacked my argument for three pages but you have a lot of posts attacking my person.

Now this is respectable. A post with observations of facts and not whining. He had the guts to stay in the conversation, and why are people engaged in intense debate if they get all hacked off about someone telling them they need to pull their heads out of their butts and then showing them why? This place is not for sensitive people with low self esteem.

 

[Buttons*]

If people are gonna mock my faith and my beliefs just because they like to have pre-marital sex then they better be able to take it when I bite back. I understand that a lot of people don't read through every single post on a thread (I certainly don't), but don't insult my religion and then cry when I tell you you can't hold an argument.

I dont think i've ever said anything bad about the LDS church or their beliefs.
I can take what you can dish, your opinions mean nothing to me.
i dont know if i like premarital sex, i havent had it.
The first thing you ever said to me was about how i dont respect myself or others and that i just want to have sex.... and that i was a guy.
I really dont think we should get into personal attacks.
I think we should stick to the OP and continue debating reasons aside from biblical ones why we should wait until marriage.

This is aimed only at offending someone. Me telling someone they suck at debate is my opinion. If it's not true then why would someone get offended? I was brought up to believe that I had control over my own feelings. If you let someone take control of your emotions maybe you shouldn't be here.

We have rules at RF that prohibit personal attacks though.
Were you brought up to obey rules?

Perhaps I talk a lot of **** about things that I know about and you just don't listen.

Aren't you firmly against cussing?

I'll say it the same way I've said it many times before (but you didn't listen then either) the world inside your head is a lot different then the world around you. Make a little better attempt to reconcile the two and you won't get so butt-hurt about people telling you you're wrong.

Yes, a valuable lesson we all can gain from...sorta

This place is not for sensitive people with low self esteem.

i thought this was a place for everyone

 

[Buttons*]

if one is careful, gets tested often, and doesn't go have sex with just some random person on the street, is there really anything wrong with it?

 

[Darkdale]

Wow, I've come to this thread a little late. Sex means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. You have to know yourself and your values in order to know how to approach it.

I think a small majority of people should wait till they get married. Sex is powerful, pleasurable, and it carries with it various risks (STDs and Children). So, there are a lot of people that should wait. But sex is different with every person, and there are a lot of people out there in the world. So, some people may benefit alot from a great deal from sex before marriage; and if you are responsible, it can be a very rewarding variety of experiences.