Separation of men and women

[metis]

The separation of the sexes probably has far less to do with distraction than it does about the long history within Judaism of the separate roles for men and women, plus the long-standing attitudes towards each. IMO, there simply is no reason for me to believe that it has anything to do with sexual attraction in regards to its probable origin.

 

[Tumah]

The separation of the sexes probably has far less to do with distraction than it does about the long history within Judaism of the separate roles for men and women, plus the long-standing attitudes towards each. IMO, there simply is no reason for me to believe that it has anything to do with sexual attraction in regards to its probable origin.

Sukah 51b
...the Rabbis taught: In the beginning, the women were inside (the Women's Enclosure of the Temple) and the men outside (on the Temple Mount) and they were coming to 'light-headedness' (a euphemism). They enacted that the women should sit outside and the men inside, but they still came to 'light-headedness'. They enacted that the women should sit above (they built an upper level for them) and the men below...

 

[metis]

Sukah 51b
...the Rabbis taught: In the beginning, the women were inside (the Women's Enclosure of the Temple) and the men outside (on the Temple Mount) and they were coming to 'light-headedness' (a euphemism). They enacted that the women should sit outside and the men inside, but they still came to 'light-headedness'. They enacted that the women should sit above (they built an upper level for them) and the men below...

Yes, and how are you interpreting "light-headedness"? I certainly don't interpret that as referring to sexual distraction.

Let's face the reality, and it was common throughout at least most of the world, that there was very much a cavalier attitude towards women as compared to men. Women were more viewed as the "weaker sex", more prone to emotion, which we also saw being played in regards to them not being considered reliable witnesses. Women could not apply for a get, but men could do so rather easily. Etc.

 

[Tumah]

Yes, and how are you interpreting "light-headedness"? I certainly don't interpret that as referring to sexual distraction.

Let's face the reality, and it was common throughout at least most of the world, that there was very much a cavalier attitude towards women as compared to men. Women were more viewed as the "weaker sex", more prone to emotion, which we also saw being played in regards to them not being considered reliable witnesses. Women could not apply for a get, but men could do so rather easily. Etc.

Avos 3:13
Rabbi Akiva said, "Jokingness and light-headedness bring a person to immorality.

 

[Aquitaine]

If by confinement you mean separation of genders, than yes, every day.
If you mean each individual is locked in his own room, then no.

Sorry I should've clarified, I meant individually. Thanks for sharing.

 

[metis]

Avos 3:13
Rabbi Akiva said, "Jokingness and light-headedness bring a person to immorality.

I can't quite see how that plays into anything either you said. By chance, do you believe that Akiva was referring to women as being "light-headed"? That would actually fit the cultural stereotyped back then in regards to gender.

The reason why distraction by itself is highly unlikely is because many things can cause distractions, including the person sitting next to us regardless of gender. If distractions were the main reason, then exclusively praying in private would logically be mandated in all likelihood.

Instead, we well know what the attitudes were like a couple of thousands of years ago in regards to the sexes since so much was written, and there definitely were different roles assigned, with the male being viewed as being more dominant in most areas. Even though it is virtually impossible to verify that this was the cause of separation, I certainly would be much more willing to bet on that versus just gender distraction.

 

[Tumah]

I can't quite see how that plays into anything either you said. By chance, do you believe that Akiva was referring to women as being "light-headed"? That would actually fit the cultural stereotyped back then in regards to gender.

The reason why distraction by itself is highly unlikely is because many things can cause distractions, including the person sitting next to us regardless of gender. If distractions were the main reason, then exclusively praying in private would logically be mandated in all likelihood.

Instead, we well know what the attitudes were like a couple of thousands of years ago in regards to the sexes since so much was written, and there definitely were different roles assigned, with the male being viewed as being more dominant in most areas. Even though it is virtually impossible to verify that this was the cause of separation, I certainly would be much more willing to bet on that versus just gender distraction.

What you are saying makes no sense. Rabbi Akiva is discussing attitudes, not people. He is not saying that women are light headed, he is saying that 'light-headedness brings a person to immorality. That's what his statement says. How you can't see why that connects to the other passage about separating of genders in the Temple because of light-headedness is beyond me.

 

[metis]

What you are saying makes no sense. Rabbi Akiva is discussing attitudes, not people. He is not saying that women are light headed, he is saying that 'light-headedness brings a person to immorality. That's what his statement says. How you can't see why that connects to the other passage about separating of genders in the Temple because of light-headedness is beyond me.

You seem to have difficulty actually keeping track of what I have posted as it was I who asked you what "light-headedness" meant to you (post #23), and then I followed up with that basic question again in my post #26.

It literally makes no sense that gender distraction would be the only distraction at shul. I've been to a fair number of orthodox services here and in Israel, so don't give me that this is somehow the sole cause because I've seen probably most congregants being distracted at one time or another while davening, including myself.

All you have done is to make an unsubstantiated claim based on your supposed certainty whereas we simply cannot know with any certainty how it all stated. I proposed that it I believe it was likely due to how the genders were viewed thousands of years ago, which is an opinion based on an analysis of what we do know, but you come back as if you somehow know with certainty that I must be wrong. Sorry, but this is an area whereas certainty ain't as easy as you're trying to portray it to be.

 

[Tumah]

You seem to have difficulty actually keeping track of what I have posted as it was I who asked you what "light-headedness" meant to you (post #23), and then I followed up with that basic question again in my post #26.

It literally makes no sense that gender distraction would be the only distraction at shul. I've been to a fair number of orthodox services here and in Israel, so don't give me that this is somehow the sole cause because I've seen probably most congregants being distracted at one time or another while davening, including myself.

All you have done is to make an unsubstantiated claim based on your supposed certainty whereas we simply cannot know with any certainty how it all stated. I proposed that it I believe it was likely due to how the genders were viewed thousands of years ago, which is an opinion based on an analysis of what we do know, but you come back as if you somehow know with certainty that I must be wrong. Sorry, but this is an area whereas certainty ain't as easy as you're trying to portray it to be.

I never used the word distraction, I said, " not conducive of the proper mindset needed for prayer". And of course anything can be a distraction to prayers for people with ADD, but you can't have prayers with nobody there. That doesn't mean you need to make it harder on people either.

Regardless, the precedent and the reason is already quoted in the Talmud. And the reason given wasn't distraction but what seems to be an issue with intermingling that eventually leads to immorality.

I understand you seen uncertainty as an idea to strive for, but sometimes things are fairly understandable.

 

[metis]

I never used the word distraction, I said, " not conducive of the proper mindset needed for prayer". And of course anything can be a distraction to prayers for people with ADD, but you can't have prayers with nobody there. That doesn't mean you need to make it harder on people either.

Regardless, the precedent and the reason is already quoted in the Talmud. And the reason given wasn't distraction but what seems to be an issue with intermingling that eventually leads to immorality.

I understand you seen uncertainty as an idea to strive for, but sometimes things are fairly understandable.

And sometimes uncertainty can actually be to one's advantage. After all, as attributed to Rabbi Confucius , the more you know, the more you know you really don't know that much. To a child, a tree is simple; but to a botanist, a tree is quite complex.

And this is even more the case when dealing with theology since we're dealing with events and statements that took place thousands of years ago written by people who we don't really know and who were writing quite subjectively. Therefore, the reality is that if one thinks they really know with certainty what the main reason is why davening was to be kept separate between the sexes, they only making an assumption that is virtually impossible to verify in any way.

Therefore, as for me, I prefer to hedge my bets.

 

[Tarheeler]

A reminder that this is in the Orthodox Judaism DIR.

 

[metis]

A reminder that this is in the Orthodox Judaism DIR.

Oops! Sorry. Outta here.

 

[Leo613]

Oops! Sorry. Outta here.

Where's good place

 

[Tumah]

Where's good place

Try Subsational. Its on Ave. P and Coney Island. The subs are not bad at all for fast food although its a bit tacky and starting to get run down.

 

[Leo613]

Try Subsational. Its on Ave. P and Coney Island. The subs are not bad at all for fast food although its a bit tacky and starting to get run down.

I live in Manchester
I think you got the wrong end of the stick

 

[Tumah]

I live in Manchester
I think you got the wrong end of the stick

Yeah, in that case I don't think its worth flying in to NY just for a sub. You'll have to wait for some other recommendation of a good place.

 

[RabbiO]

Try Subsational. Its on Ave. P and Coney Island. The subs are not bad at all for fast food although its a bit tacky and starting to get run down.

I knew that Mega-Super-Ultra-Orthodox Jews had a sense of humor, although I'm not sure that Leo understands that!

 

[Leo613]

Yeah, in that case I don't think its worth flying in to NY just for a sub. You'll have to wait for some other recommendation of a good place.

What's your religious background ?

 

[Tumah]

What's your religious background ?

I'll give you a hint:
I'm a Mega, Super, Ultra-Orthodox Jew.





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[Leo613]

I'll give you a hint:
I'm a Mega, Super, Ultra-Orthodox Jew.

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The ones that don't use internet