SCOTUS To Rule On Legality Of Religious Cross

[Skwim]

lol...I knew it...
whether u guys like it or not, America is culturally a Christian nation.

No. America is a country whose culture includes a predominant religion.

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[Skwim]

Are we concerned that someone will be crucified on it?

A complete waste of taxpayer dollars, IMO. It's already there. It's been there for 93 years. It would cost money to take it down.

According to the article, every year it costs money for upkeep.

If you don't like it, don't look at it.

Just like the large statue of a guy with an erect penis in your neighbor's yard across the street from you.

Spoiler: Penis across the street

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[Skwim]

Defending the cross, the American Legion argues that the memorial was designed to mirror the cross-shaped markers on the graves of American servicemen overseas. In the aftermath of World War I, the group says, crosses became the cultural symbol of the fallen, so the government "may use a cross when commemorating a secular, historical event."
I am a pretty hardcore secularist, but even I agree with the Legion here.

The American Legion is so tied to the Christian religion that it can't even acknowledge that armed service personal of other faiths had non-cross-shaped markers on their graves. AND that after WWI even if "crosses became the cultural symbol of the fallen," it was inappropriate. How would you feel if, as a Jew, Unitarian, Bahai, Atheist, Muslim, Eckest, Wiccan, or any other of the 98 religious beliefs recognized by the military, your fallen son or daughter was memorialized by a cross?

Nope. As usual the American Legion has its biased head up its ***.

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[Curious George]

Just like the large statue of a guy with an erect penis in your neighbor's yard across the street from you.

Spoiler: Penis across the street

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I knew this thread was really just a personal vendetta against your neighbors for complaining about your "fountain."

 

[columbus]

The American Legion is so tied to the Christian religion that it can't even acknowledge that armed service personal of other faiths had non-cross-shaped markers on their graves

Dude,
Can you even grasp that not all of us, including secularists, don't have a problem with every symbol?


You might. But I don't.
Tom

 

[Skwim]

Dude,
Can you even grasp that not all of us, including secularists, don't have a problem with every symbol?

Absolutely, but what does that have to do with the stupid comment made by the American Legion?

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[Skwim]

I knew this thread was really just a personal vendetta against your neighbors for complaining about your "fountain."

A guy has to start somewhere.

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[SalixIncendium]

According to the article, every year it costs money for upkeep.

Yes, but even though the article doesn’t state how much, I’m confident the cost is substantially less than SCOTUS hearings and subsequent demolition and site reclamation.

Just like the large statue of a guy with an erect penis in your neighbor's yard across the street from you.

Spoiler: Penis across the street

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Well, if it’s okay on the cover of a children’s VHS movie, why not?

Seriously, though, are we really comparing a phallus to a cross? Are you, in all seriousness, suggesting that they are on the same level of offensiveness to the general populous?

 

[Skwim]

Yes, but even though the article doesn’t state how much, I’m confident the cost is substantially less than SCOTUS hearings and subsequent demolition and site reclamation.

And that would be the cost of violating the Constitution. What can I say, that since we've violated it in the past it's alright to keep on violating it? Not on yure Grandmothers fine china, fella.

Well, if it’s okay on the cover of a children’s VHS movie, why not?

They're putting penises on the cover of a children’s VHS movie? Kind of odd don't you think?

Seriously, though, are we really comparing a phallus to a cross? Are you, in all seriousness, suggesting that they are on the same level of offensiveness to the general populous?

You're the one whose solution was, "If you don't like it, don't look at it." I'm just pointing out that the solution can cut both ways.

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[Willamena]

I agree wholeheartedly with the Legion's argument in this case. The cross is not a symbol exclusive to Christianity. As a war memorial, it is more significant as a cultural symbol to represent the fallen.

 

[Willamena]

The American Legion is so tied to the Christian religion that it can't even acknowledge that armed service personal of other faiths had non-cross-shaped markers on their graves. AND that after WWI even if "crosses became the cultural symbol of the fallen," it was inappropriate. How would you feel if, as a Jew, Unitarian, Bahai, Atheist, Muslim, Eckest, Wiccan, or any other of the 98 religions recognized by the military, your fallen son or daughter was commemorated by a cross?

Nope. As usual the American Legion has its biased head up its ***.

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Crosses as grave markers outdate Christianity.

 

[Skwim]

I agree wholeheartedly with the Legion's argument in this case.

*sigh*

The cross is not a symbol exclusive to Christianity.

Perhaps not, but as it was erected to commemorate fallen service personnel it was certainly meant to be a symbol of Christianity. Why else do you think it was chosen, because it has a pleasing symmetry?

As a war memorial, it is more significant as a cultural symbol to represent the fallen.

The cross has become as ubiquitous as it is only because Christians were in places of power to decide it would be used. And as I asked before, "How would you feel if, as a Jew, Unitarian, Bahai, Atheist, Muslim, Eckest, Wiccan, or any other of the 98 religions recognized by the military, your fallen son or daughter was memorialized by a cross? As a Christian how would you feel if instead of a cross to memorialize your son or daughter the symbol chosen was the atomic whirl of Atheism, or the pentacle of Wicca?

 

[Skwim]

Crosses as grave markers outdate Christianity.

So what? The cross used to memorialize fallen service members was chosen only because it does represent Christianity.

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[Into the Night]

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The U.S. Supreme Court said Friday that it will take up a fight over a towering cross in suburban Washington, D.C., a case that invites the court to further define what kind of displays amount to government endorsement of religion.

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The court's rulings have been notoriously erratic in this area, and Justice Brett Kavanaugh's views probably won't differ much from those of Anthony Kennedy, who was willing to tolerate of a lower wall of separation between church and state.

The case involves a challenge to a 40-foot-tall concrete cross at a busy intersection in Bladensburg, Maryland. Completed in 1925, it was built to commemorate 49 servicemen from the county who died in World War I.

In 2012, the American Humanist Association filed a lawsuit, claiming that its presence on public land violates the Constitution, amount to a government establishment of religion. The Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals in Virginia agreed, saying it could not ignore that "for thousands of years the Latin cross has represented Christianity."

Because the government owns the land on which the cross sits and has spent public money to maintain the memorial, the government improperly entangled itself with a particular religion, the appeals court said. A reasonable observer would conclude that the government "either places Christianity above other faiths, views being American and Christian as one in the same, or both."

Defending the cross, the American Legion argues that the memorial was designed to mirror the cross-shaped markers on the graves of American servicemen overseas. In the aftermath of World War I, the group says, crosses became the cultural symbol of the fallen, so the government "may use a cross when commemorating a secular, historical event."

A Supreme Court decision upholding the lower court ruling against the cross would cast doubt on hundreds of similar monuments nationwide that use crosses to commemorate lives lost in war, the American Legion warns.

The case will be argued early next year.
source

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Thoughts?

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I assume the 49 servicemen were of Christian faith? It so, it is quite an appropriate monument to their service. This is not establishing a State religion, it is simply honoring these 49 servicemen.

In my opinion, the Supreme Court, if they require the removal of this cross, IS attempting to establish a State religion (atheism). In that case, such a ruling would exceed their authority. The Court does not have the authority to change the Constitution of the United States. Further, the 1st amendment does NOT apply to States. It only applies to the federal government. It specifically refers to Congress and any laws that it passes, not to the construction of a monument to Christian servicemen by a State or by a city. The Fourth Circuit Court has already exceeded its authority.

Building a monument is not a law. It was not a law passed by Congress. It is a commemoration of these honored servicemen.

There is nothing illegal about a city Christmas tree (which is a practice actually coming from Saturnia, a festival BEFORE Christianity), a or a menorah, during the holidays. It is not establishing a State religion. It is not a law passed by Congress. It is a commemorative symbol of the times and season, nothing more. Even the lights of the winter solstice holidays are so. (Tree lights come from the lights of Loki), while others come from the Festival of Lights, a Hindu holiday celebrating the victory of Light over Darkness (in other words enlightement over ignorance and evil).

Symbols are used everywhere. You see swastikas on temples, government buildings, etc. These represent the nature of God (whatever that 'God' happens to be) and the pervasive the influence of his enlightenment and power is.. Unfortunately, Hitler kind of ruined the meaning of the swastika for everyone. Hitler used it to represent the spread of fascism over all the Earth, darkness indeed.

A symbol does not establish any State religion, even if that symbol is incorporated into a moment honoring the religion of another.

 

[Into the Night]

*sigh*


Perhaps not, but as it was erected to commemorate fallen service personnel it was certainly meant to be a symbol of Christianity. Why else do you think it was chosen, because it has a pleasing symmetry?


The cross has become as ubiquitous as it is only because Christians were in places of power to decide it would be used. And as I asked before, "How would you feel if, as a Jew, Unitarian, Bahai, Atheist, Muslim, Eckest, Wiccan, or any other of the 98 religions recognized by the military, your fallen son or daughter was memorialized by a cross? As a Christian how would you feel if instead of a cross to memorialize your son or daughter the symbol chosen was the atomic whirl of Atheism, or the pentacle of Wicca?

It could be argued, that one does not have to feel anything. They are dead.

Symbols such as crosses, swastikas, etc. are for the living, not the dead.

If a cross is put up to honor servicemen and one of them was a Jew, feel free to have the city include a Star of David in the monument to honor that serviceman.

For you atheists. do you have a symbol for your religion?

 

[SalixIncendium]

And that would be the cost of violating the Constitution. What can I say, that since we've violated it in the past it's alright to keep on violating it? Not on yure Grandmothers fine china, fella.

It's arguable that a memorial to servicemen in the shape of a cross actually violates the constitution. What's next? Should we go through Arlington National Cemetery and replace all of the headstones that have a cross?

Even if it did violate the Constitution, it was violated 93 years ago. So how does it's mere existence "keep on violating it?" Are they erecting more crosses?

They're putting penises on the cover of a children’s VHS movie? Kind of odd don't you think?

Yup.

You're the one whose solution was, "If you don't like it, don't look at it." I'm just pointing out that the solution can cut both ways..

Whose house was this statue across the street from?

 

[Skwim]

I assume the 49 servicemen were of Christian faith? It so, it is quite an appropriate monument to their service. This is not establishing a State religion, it is simply honoring these 49 servicemen.

And if your assumption is wrong, then what?

In my opinion, the Supreme Court, if they require the removal of this cross, IS attempting to establish a State religion (atheism).

Why?

In that case, such a ruling would exceed their authority.

Sure it would, but first you would have to show that they were actually attempting to establish a State religion. That this was the ultimate aim of their decision. Think this is what could be lurking in the minds of the Court? A court currently comprised of 5 Roman Catholics, 3 Jews, and an Episcopalian.

The Court does not have the authority to change the Constitution of the United States.

And no one has said it does. However, the court is charged with interpreting it.

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[Skwim]

It could be argued, that one does not have to feel anything. They are dead.

Symbols such as crosses, swastikas, etc. are for the living, not the dead.

If a cross is put up to honor servicemen and one of them was a Jew, feel free to have the city include a Star of David in the monument to honor that serviceman.

For you atheists. do you have a symbol for your religion?

As I pointed out elsewhere, atheists do have a symbol of their religious belief, a whirling atom.

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[Willamena]

Perhaps not, but as it was erected to commemorate fallen service personnel it was certainly meant to be a symbol of Christianity. Why else do you think it was chosen, because it has a pleasing symmetry?

Of course not. It was chosen because of its symbolic significance.

The cross has become as ubiquitous as it is only because Christians were in places of power to decide it would be used. And as I asked before, "How would you feel if, as a Jew, Unitarian, Bahai, Atheist, Muslim, Eckest, Wiccan, or any other of the 98 religions recognized by the military, your fallen son or daughter was memorialized by a cross? As a Christian how would you feel if instead of a cross to memorialize your son or daughter the symbol chosen was the atomic whirl of Atheism, or the pentacle of Wicca?

That's one way of looking at it.

And that's not a question that you want to ask of me. Ask it of someone whom it fits.

 

[Willamena]

So what? The cross used to memorialize fallen service members was chosen only because it does represent Christianity.

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Fortunately, I learned a phrase these last two years: fake news.