Science at Last Explains Our Soul

[SalixIncendium]

"Recently two quantum scientists have claimed that they can prove the existence of the soul, a quantum entity that acts as the program for the computer of our brain, and exists independently of the physical body after death. One psychologist says that the concept of soul is merely an extrapolation we make based on the duality that we experience between body and consciousness."

Science at Last Explains Our Soul

I find this theory to be plausible. Do you? If not, why not?

 

[Polymath257]

"Recently two quantum scientists have claimed that they can prove the existence of the soul, a quantum entity that acts as the program for the computer of our brain, and exists independently of the physical body after death. One psychologist says that the concept of soul is merely an extrapolation we make based on the duality that we experience between body and consciousness."

Science at Last Explains Our Soul

I find this theory to be plausible. Do you? If not, why not?

The Penrose-Hameroff proposal is not very new. It is also not very reasonable given the nature of quantum mechanics. Essentially, Penrose proposes that quantum gravity effects allow microtubules in the brain to align and thereby produce consciousness. There are several deep problems with this.

First, microtubules are, for purposes of quantum mechanics, very large structures (thereby reducing the quantum effects greatly) in a 'hot' environment (body temperature) which promotes decoherence. One of the things we have learned about quantum computing is that it requires extreme isolation of the quantum system from the environment. Otherwise, the entanglements required are broken down too quickly. They also need to be at low temperatures (below the temperature of liquid nitrogen) for similar reasons. This is in the basic physics. The brain is a very, very poor place to expect quantum entanglements to be preserved.

Even worse, by bringing in quantum gravity, for which no current hypothesis is testable, and for which the relevant distances and times are *many* orders of magnitude smaller than an atom (let alone a neuron), Hameroff and Penrose go *completely* off the deep end.

Finally, the identification of quantum entanglement effects with a 'soul' is also deeply problematic.

Sorry, but this is bunk. It isn't even supported by the biology.

 

[Brickjectivity]

The Penrose-Hameroff proposal is not very new. It is also not very reasonable given the nature of quantum mechanics. Essentially, Penrose proposes that quantum gravity effects allow microtubules in the brain to align and thereby produce consciousness. There are several deep problems with this.

First, microtubules are, for purposes of quantum mechanics, very large structures (thereby reducing the quantum effects greatly) in a 'hot' environment (body temperature) which promotes decoherence. One of the things we have learned about quantum computing is that it requires extreme isolation of the quantum system from the environment. Otherwise, the entanglements required are broken down too quickly. They also need to be at low temperatures (below the temperature of liquid nitrogen) for similar reasons. This is in the basic physics. The brain is a very, very poor place to expect quantum entanglements to be preserved.

Even worse, by bringing in quantum gravity, for which no current hypothesis is testable, and for which the relevant distances and times are *many* orders of magnitude smaller than an atom (let alone a neuron), Hameroff and Penrose go *completely* off the deep end.

Finally, the identification of quantum entanglement effects with a 'soul' is also deeply problematic.

Sorry, but this is bunk. It isn't even supported by the biology.

Confirming what you are saying about cold temperatures and quantum effect: I saw a youtube about the very cold temperatures required to keep heat noise out of quantum computing. This fellow went on a tour of a company that makes Q-bit processing hardware, and they had to cool the Q-bit registers down to near zero, actually colder than temperatures in most of outer space. They had to use multi-stage cooling, where one refrigeration system was connected to another all inside of a vacuum. If I can find it again I'll post it here.

 

[Katzpur]

Actually, that sounds almost Mormon to me.

 

[blü 2]

"Recently two quantum scientists have claimed that they can prove the existence of the soul, a quantum entity that acts as the program for the computer of our brain, and exists independently of the physical body after death. One psychologist says that the concept of soul is merely an extrapolation we make based on the duality that we experience between body and consciousness."

Science at Last Explains Our Soul

I find this theory to be plausible. Do you? If not, why not?

I was reading the article, waiting and waiting to be told the design of our author's experiments to verify his hypothesis, and the results of those experiments. But the complete silence on that subject points to this being just one of those things he wrote late one night after a few beers.

 

[SalixIncendium]

I was reading the article, waiting and waiting to be told the design of our author's experiments to verify his hypothesis, and the results of those experiments. But the complete silence on that subject points to this being just one of those things he wrote late one night after a few beers.

Gee...

I hope you didn't wait around a whole lot longer than it took you to read the article (unless you were meditating on it).

Sorry if you feel you wasted your time.

 

[blü 2]

Gee...

I hope you didn't wait around a whole lot longer than it took you to read the article (unless you were meditating on it).

Sorry if you feel you wasted your time.

Awww! It's very considerate of you to be concerned!

 

[Sapiens]

Actually, that sounds almost Mormon to me.

Like the man said: "Sorry, but this is bunk. It isn't even supported by the biology."

 

[Jonathan Ainsley Bain]

"Recently two quantum scientists have claimed that they can prove the existence of the soul, a quantum entity that acts as the program for the computer of our brain, and exists independently of the physical body after death. One psychologist says that the concept of soul is merely an extrapolation we make based on the duality that we experience between body and consciousness."

Science at Last Explains Our Soul

I find this theory to be plausible. Do you? If not, why not?

Its a fair try, and I welcome the intuition which tries to unite religion and science.
Computer metaphors however, are really tired.

The only way forward I can see, is that it just has to be realized that
the soul/spirit is just a fundamentally different 'stuff' to physical matter itself.

That article seem to be trying to hedge itself behind materialist metaphysics;
and winds up subtly undermining a genuine dualist ontology; which it seems to me to be a
fundamental tenet of any attempt to unify science and religion.

 

[Twilight Hue]

"Recently two quantum scientists have claimed that they can prove the existence of the soul, a quantum entity that acts as the program for the computer of our brain, and exists independently of the physical body after death. One psychologist says that the concept of soul is merely an extrapolation we make based on the duality that we experience between body and consciousness."

Science at Last Explains Our Soul

I find this theory to be plausible. Do you? If not, why not?

Has any of it hit the peer review crucible yet?

 

[gnostic]

Science at Last Explains Our Soul

Why would science needs to explain what's at the bottom of our feet? Don't each person has 2 soles?

 

[Curious George]

There are several deep problems with this.

First, microtubules are, for purposes of quantum mechanics, very large structures (thereby reducing the quantum effects greatly) in a 'hot' environment (body temperature) which promotes decoherence. One of the things we have learned about quantum computing is that it requires extreme isolation of the quantum system from the environment. Otherwise, the entanglements required are broken down too quickly. They also need to be at low temperatures (below the temperature of liquid nitrogen) for similar reasons. This is in the basic physics. The brain is a very, very poor place to expect quantum entanglements to be preserved.

Sorry, but this is bunk. It isn't even supported by the biology.

Not that it affects the overall assessment of this specific theory, but you might want to rethink your dismissal of quantum effects in "hot" environments.

Consider:

Physics of life: The dawn of quantum biology : Nature News

 

[MonkeyFire]

Death is unreal. Man is spirit even after what you perceive as death.

 

[Polymath257]

Not that it affects the overall assessment of this specific theory, but you might want to rethink your dismissal of quantum effects in "hot" environments.

Consider:

Physics of life: The dawn of quantum biology : Nature News

While photosynthesis (and vision, by the way) seem to rely on quantum aspects of the systems involved, they do NOT rely on maintaining entanglement between particles. Instead, the wave aspects of electrons or the particle aspects of photons are involved. While these latter are quantum effects, they *are* relevant to macroscopic systems (and not just in life: lasers work because of quantum effects).

The problem with this OP is that it requires the maintenance of *entanglement* between many different microtubules over distances corresponding to the size of the brain and in a system the temperature of the body. And entanglement is an incredibly delicate thing to maintain. This is the aspect that doesn't 'fit'.

 

[Polymath257]

While photosynthesis (and vision, by the way) seem to rely on quantum aspects of the systems involved, they do NOT rely on maintaining entanglement between particles. Instead, the wave aspects of electrons or the particle aspects of photons are involved. While these latter are quantum effects, they *are* relevant to macroscopic systems (and not just in life: lasers work because of quantum effects).

The problem with this OP is that it requires the maintenance of *entanglement* between many different microtubules over distances corresponding to the size of the brain and in a system the temperature of the body. And entanglement is an incredibly delicate thing to maintain. This is the aspect that doesn't 'fit'.

/E: It seems that one of the examples has entanglement between two electrons for tens of microseconds in 'bird compasses'. Again, a far cry from entanglement across the brain for microtubules.

 

[Revoltingest]

/E: It seems that one of the examples has entanglement between two electrons for tens of microseconds in 'bird compasses'. Again, a far cry from entanglement across the brain for microtubules.

I finally understand why the Philosopher's Union has banned you from their Xmas parties.

 

[Polymath257]

I finally understand why the Philosopher's Union has banned you from their Xmas parties.

Well, I prefer the Halloween parties anyway.

 

[Curious George]

While photosynthesis (and vision, by the way) seem to rely on quantum aspects of the systems involved, they do NOT rely on maintaining entanglement between particles. Instead, the wave aspects of electrons or the particle aspects of photons are involved. While these latter are quantum effects, they *are* relevant to macroscopic systems (and not just in life: lasers work because of quantum effects).

The problem with this OP is that it requires the maintenance of *entanglement* between many different microtubules over distances corresponding to the size of the brain and in a system the temperature of the body. And entanglement is an incredibly delicate thing to maintain. This is the aspect that doesn't 'fit'.

While I understand what you are saying, I think your other points to the OP were better. I think it is a bit hasty to conclude that quantum entanglements cannot occur because of body heat. Maybe you are right though, it just seems that quantum physics plays a part in many aspects of our reality and to conclude that it is not so in our body or at least entanglement is not so within our bodies seems hasty.

Cheers

 

[Polymath257]

While I understand what you are saying, I think your other points to the OP were better. I think it is a bit hasty to conclude that quantum entanglements cannot occur because of body heat. Maybe you are right though, it just seems that quantum physics plays a part in many aspects of our reality and to conclude that it is not so in our body or at least entanglement is not so within our bodies seems hasty.

Cheers

It isn't so much that they don't occur. It's that they are not maintained except in very specific situations. Specifically, they can happen in single molecules and be maintained for microseconds as opposed to throughout the brain and maintained for seconds.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Just another example of how "science" can make claims that it can't support and everyone accepts it because it is "science" but if "religion" makes a claim about something, everyone wants proof.