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Featured Return of soul (spirit) to body

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by InvestigateTruth, Oct 29, 2020.

  1. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Isn't return of soul to a body, reincarnation?

    Reincarnation is not believed to be true in Abrahamic religions.

    Returning the soul on the day of Resurrection is a form of reincarnation philosophically speaking.

    Then, how Resurrection of dead, which is return of soul, is a correct understanding of Resurrection in Abrahamic religions?
     
  2. MNoBody

    MNoBody Well-Known Member

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    it appears that such a doctrine is "recent" [added later], and if one looks back further, reincarnation was the common accepted scheme of things for many of these traditions [including early christianity]
     
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  3. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
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    As a believer in reincarnation myself, I believe it to mean a soul incarnating 'different' bodies for different learning experiences.
     
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  4. MNoBody

    MNoBody Well-Known Member

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    I agree, yet the thought persists,
    thou art that, consciousness itself, which certainly is immortal and infinite already and always has been
    ....perfection itself [idealized], so what is there to actually "Learn", given such a state of affairs then?

    Plato even promoted this idea in his expositions with Meno and the concept of anamnesis
    [in that the "self" already knows, merely needs to remember, recollect, and the best teacher then serves this purpose]:)
     
  5. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    From today's orthodox theology, that's so.

    But Kabbalah says differently from a Jewish perspective: What Judaism Says About Reincarnation | My Jewish Learning

    From a Christian perspective, we have this discussion https://ocoy.org/original-christianity/may-a-christian-believe-in-reincarnation/

    From the Islamic sufi tradition, Rumi wrote about not a limited reincarnation but an entirely evolutionary and involutionary scheme where the soul evolves from mineral to human and then beyond:
    I died to being mineral and growth began.
    I died to vegetable growth and attained to the state of animals.
    I died from animality and became Adam:
    why then should I fear?
    When have I become less by dying?
    Next I shall die to being a human being,
    so that I may soar and lift up my head among the angels.
    Yet I must escape even from that angelic state:
    everything is perishing except His Face.*
    Once again I shall be sacrificed, dying to the angelic;
    I shall become that which could never be imagined
    I shall become nonexistent.
    Nonexistence sings its clear melody,
    Truly, unto Him shall we return!**
     
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  6. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
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    In my Hindu Advaita philosophy, I agree with Brahman as universal consciousness but there is also Maya (the play/drama of the changing universe) in which Brahman separates itself from itself in Act I and returns itself to itself in Act II. Reincarnation is learning experiences leading to the return of the temporary individual soul to Brahman.
     
  7. MNoBody

    MNoBody Well-Known Member

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    so to continue then, whom is the one who is learning .....except whom we have imagined ourselves to be, for a time.:)
     
  8. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
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    You kind of answered your own question. It’s all our temporary illusion. Like when we watch a play we willingly suspend our belief that we are just watching actors and empathize with the characters’ plights. It is all cosmic creative experiencing.
     
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  9. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Reincarnation is returning as another person. Resurrection is returning as the same person.
     
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  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Doesn’t your question depend on your definition of a “soul”?
    And what “resurrection” means in scripture?

    If you believe that the soul is a disembodied part of man that survives death, then that idea can lead to all manner of scenarios.....none of which are provable. Very different faiths seem to hold this one idea in common, but no one seems to understand why.

    From the Christian perspective, we have to believe what Jews were originally taught about death and resurrection, which was embodied in their scripture, because that was the scripture Jesus used to teach his disciples.

    Does the almost universal acceptance of life after death prove that it’s correct?

    What do those scriptures tell us?

    Starting at the beginning we can see in Genesis what God told Adam about death......which was only to occur as the penalty for disobedience to God’s specific command concerning just one tree in the garden. (Genesis 2:17) Humans did not have a natural cause of death because “the tree of life”, which was also in the garden, was the only means to keep them living forever. (Genesis 3:22-24)

    When the humans disobeyed, God barred the way to “the tree of life” and evicted them from their paradise home to eke out an existence on cursed ground. Death would now come by way of aging, sickness and death. The day they ate from that forbidden tree, is the day death entered into their world. Their disconnect from God was immediate.

    God told Adam....
    “In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”
    There is no mention of any afterlife at all. Death simply meant the end of life, and a body returned to the dust of the earth. No invisible, conscious part of man was to go on living.

    The Jewish definition of a “soul” was a living breathing creature.....both man and animals were called “souls” in Genesis. But somewhere along the way, the Jews adopted belief in an immortal soul that survived death, (more than likely from the Greeks) but it wasn’t what their scripture taught.

    Since animals were never said to have been made in God’s image, everlasting life was not part of their creation. The circle of life was their portion, passing on life to the next generation....but not so man. Only man was offered the opportunity for unending life. It was conditional however, solely dependent on their obedience to their Creator and adherence to his instructions.

    Jewish belief in the unconsciousness of death was also recorded by Solomon in Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10...

    For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun. . . . .Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going. (ESV)
    “Sheol” is the grave. The dead are not conscious in sheol. Even their love has perished.

    King David too confirmed it.....
    Psalm 146:4...
    When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.” (ESV)

    When man breathes his last breath, all his plans for life end....but it doesn’t mean that he has no hope of a restoration of life.....that is called “resurrection” and it simply means God putting breath (spirit) back into a body so that life can be returned to a person....their former life, restored as the person they were when they died. (Like Lazarus, whom Jesus raised.....and whom he said was “sleeping” in John 11:11-14)

    So the Bible rules out “reincarnation” (the implantation of a pre-existing, living entity being put into a new born baby) and confirms the possibility of a restoration of our previous life, interrupted by death. What is the point of reincarnation if the person has no recollection of who (or what) they were in a previous life? :shrug:

    God did not design us to die, so the thought of being out of existence goes against all our natural inclinations. We need to go on living because we are not designed to die. The natural remedy for that was to invent an invisible and immortal part of man that continues to exist after death......and it seems like every religion has this belief....except the true one. The truth does not need to service this false belief......when we die, the Bible says we simply return to the earth, as Genesis says. We are given the prospect of returning to life by a resurrection, not by an invisible part of us that had to go somewhere when we died, that is reunited with a new body.....(some of those places where souls are said to go, are imaginative and terrifying to say the least).....but according to the Bible, none of them are necessary. There is no afterlife like that. We simply "sleep" in death awaiting a return to our previous life. Jesus will carry out the assignment. (John 5:28-29)

    God’s memory is infinite, (the Bible says he has named every star) so he will have no difficulty restoring all the lives who have been lost due to Adam’s sin. After all, his sin was not our fault.

    That is what my study of the scriptures reveals....FWIW.
     
  11. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Or the Spirit of the same person in another body. ;)
     
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  12. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Where do you get that from? Maybe some gnostic groups believed that but as far as I know it is nowhere taught in the Christian writings, including the Bible.
    What the Early Church Believed: Reincarnation
     
  13. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    If Jesus was in heaven when Baha'u'llah was on earth then Jesus spirit was in heaven then.
     
  14. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    What one verse does no say about death is no evidence for what other passages tell us. They do speak of a living spirit part of man which survives death and sometimes it is even conscious.

    Jewish belief in the unconsciousness of death was also recorded by Solomon in Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10...

    Sheol or Hades in the New Testament (translated as "hell" at times) is the place where the spirit part of humans go at death. The grave is where the body goes.

    Well what is it, do we go out of existence or do we sleep?
    If we go out of existence then the wording in the New Testament is incorrect and it should say that God recreates us instead of resurrects us.
    Moreover if there is nothing that goes from this life to the resurrection, the essence of the person, then what is recreated is no more than a copy or the dead person, not the same person.
    God knows me and could do the same thing you suggest right now and there would be me and a copy of me, both claiming to be me.
     
  15. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg World Citizen
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    Acts 7:55 gives a great insight

    ".. But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God.

    Interesting Baha'u'llah (Glory of God) and Jesus Christ, standing at the right of God.

    The Son and the Father together.

    Regards Tony
     
  16. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Baha'u'llah calls himself the Father and the Glory of God. Without believers in those claims, nobody would ever think that Acts 7:55 is speaking of Baha'u'llah and Jesus standing together in heaven.
    In Acts 7:55 the Father definitely does not refer to Baha'u'llah, it refers to God, the Father of Jesus.
    In the Bible the Glory of God is not a person. In Acts 7:55 the glory of God would be the radiance that was coming from both the Father and Jesus. (Heb 1:3 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory..... )
     
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  17. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Do you have references for this?
     
  18. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    The poetry by Rumi is subject to interpretation though. To me, He is just speaking symbolically.
     
  19. MNoBody

    MNoBody Well-Known Member

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    maybe why that gang of sorcerers was so keen on destroying everything from their competition....history being the propaganda of the victor and all that...... the tree is known by its fruit and that particular tree is drenched with the blood of its victims.....
     
  20. MNoBody

    MNoBody Well-Known Member

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    others have already addressed this question in this thread adequately.:)
     
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