Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Likewise. :yes:I prefer to get this information from the horse's mough.
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Likewise. :yes:I prefer to get this information from the horse's mough.
Okay, I'm even more confused now, Bruce. Do you understand the word "spirit" and "soul" to mean the same thing. Maybe that's part of my problem in understanding you, because I don't. I believe that the spirit is the essence of who we are, the life force of our existence. I believe that when the spirit enters into a physical body (probably at birth or shortly before), that body becomes "a living soul." When a person dies, the spirit leaves the body, rendering the body lifeless. The spirit, however, does not die, but continues to exist outside the body as a cognizant entity. When a person is resurrected, that spirit once again enters the body. This time, however, the body has been made immortal, so the result is not only a living soul, but an immortal being that will never again be subject to disease or death. Keeping my beliefs in mind, could you tell me how your compare. I find the Baha'i Faith so interesting but there is so much I don't know about it.
Katzpur, hi!
Rather than try to explain this myself, I'm providing you with the relevant passage from the Baha'i scriptures where these terms are explained:
Chapter 55:
SOUL, SPIRIT AND MIND
Question.—What is the difference between the mind, spirit and soul?
Answer.—It has been before explained that spirit is universally divided into five categories: the vegetable spirit, the animal spirit, the human spirit, the spirit of faith, and the Holy Spirit.
The vegetable spirit is the power of growth which is brought about in the seed through the influence of other existences.
The animal spirit is the power of all the senses, which is realized from the composition and mingling of elements; when this composition decomposes, the power also perishes and becomes annihilated. It may be likened to this lamp: when the oil, wick and fire are combined, it is lighted; and when this combination is dissolved—that is to say, when the combined parts are separated from one another—the lamp also is extinguished.
The human spirit which distinguishes man from the animal is the rational soul, and these two names—the human spirit and the rational soul—designate one thing. This spirit, which in the terminology of the philosophers is the rational soul, embraces all beings, and as far as human ability permits discovers the realities of things and becomes cognizant of their peculiarities and effects, and of the qualities and properties of beings. But the human spirit, unless assisted by the spirit of faith, does not become acquainted with the divine secrets and the heavenly realities. It is like a mirror which, although clear, polished 209 and brilliant, is still in need of light. Until a ray of the sun reflects upon it, it cannot discover the heavenly secrets.
But the mind is the power of the human spirit. Spirit is the lamp; mind is the light which shines from the lamp. Spirit is the tree, and the mind is the fruit. Mind is the perfection of the spirit and is its essential quality, as the sun’s rays are the essential necessity of the sun.
This explanation, though short, is complete; therefore, reflect upon it, and if God wills, you may become acquainted with the details.
—Some Answered Questions, p. 208
Best regards,
Bruce
There are only two men in the Bible who were taken to heaven without experiencing death, the first was Enoch, from the old world which was destroyed by water,
VEW says: The Bible couldn't be saying that Enoch was taken to heaven. Rather Enoch’s life was evidently simply cut short while he was having a vision. This is based on Paul’s remarks at Hebrews 11:5, which reads: "By faith Enoch was transferred so as not to see death, and he was nowhere to be found because God had transferred him; for before his transference he had the witness that he had pleased God well." That these words do not mean that Enoch was taken to heaven, is apparent from the following Scriptural testimony:
At Matthew 11:11 are recorded Jesus’ words that there had not risen one greater than John the Baptist, yet a lesser one in the kingdom of heaven would be greater than John, indicating that John would not be in heaven. If not John, then certainly not Enoch. Further, we have Jesus’ plain words at John 3:13, that up to his day it was true that ‘no man had ascended into heaven,’ not even Enoch. Only by means of Jesus’ death was a new and living way to get to heaven opened up. Jesus has become "the one who is first in all things," including entrance into heaven.—Col. 1:18; Heb. 10:20.
More than that, the apostle Paul, in Hebrews, chapter 11, discusses such faithful ones as Enoch, Noah and Abraham. In verses thirty-nine and forty of this chapter, Paul contrasts the men of faith before the Christian congregation with those who, like himself, were a part of it: "And yet all these, although they had witness borne to them through their faith, did not get the fulfillment of the promise, as God foresaw something better for us, in order that they might not be made perfect apart from us." In other words, only after the members of the Christian congregation receive their reward will these faithful men of old receive theirs.
Therefore, since we cannot conclude that by Enoch’s being transferred is meant his being taken to heaven, to what does it have reference? Evidently in Enoch’s case death came differently than to the rest of mankind, for which reason it is written that he "was transferred so as not to see death."
The Greek word at Hebrews 11:5 rendered "transferred" in the New World Translation has the meaning of "transfer," "transport," or "change the place of." It seems that the experience of the apostle Paul throws light on this matter, since he was transferred or caught up to the third heaven; whether in the body or out of the body, he was not able to say. In this state he caught a vision of the future spiritual paradise of the Christian congregation. (2 Cor. 12:1-4)
Apparently it was in a similar state of spiritual rapture or ecstasy, while having a vision of the earthly paradise (Enoch not knowing anything about a spiritual one), that God took Enoch away or put him to sleep. He did not see death in that he did not see his own death approaching, and therefore Enoch did not experience any pangs of death. In his instance the resurrection will mean a transition from his vision to the reality of the New World life he was privileged to see....VEW
Yes, perhaps I should have excluded such a broad concept. I suppose I meant LITERAL freedom from or absence of death.
The Greek word at Hebrews 11:5 rendered "transferred" in the New World Translation has the meaning of "transfer," "transport," or "change the place of." It seems that the experience of the apostle Paul throws light on this matter, since he was transferred or caught up to the third heaven; whether in the body or out of the body, he was not able to say. In this state he caught a vision of the future spiritual paradise of the Christian congregation. (2 Cor. 12:1-4)
Apparently it was in a similar state of spiritual rapture or ecstasy, while having a vision of the earthly paradise (Enoch not knowing anything about a spiritual one), that God took Enoch away or put him to sleep. He did not see death in that he did not see his own death approaching, and therefore Enoch did not experience any pangs of death. In his instance the resurrection will mean a transition from his vision to the reality of the New World life he was privileged to see....VEW
Translate: To change from one form to another while maintaining the essential essence of the original. Transpose: To change or transport from one place to another. Enoch the 365 day old unblemished Lamb of God, at the age of 365 was transported into heaven and translated from a physical being of corruptible matter into a brilliant and glorious being of blinding light.
Thought to be lost for millennia after being banned in the second century by such early Christian authorities as Jerome, Hilary and Augustine because of its popularity with the early Christians, The Book of Enoch the Prophet remains one of the oldest extant mystical documents. It’s referred to in the Zobar and the Epistle of Jude who is the brother of James, the first to sit on the Episcopal throne of the church of the circumcision in Jerusalem, who quotes verbatim from the book, which is known to have been in circulation for two centuries before Jesus, and was cherished by the Greek speaking Jews in Galilee and Asia Minor in the centuries following, until it was banned by the builders of the house of dominion who rejected the most important foundation stone of all Scripture, which has turned out to be the most important of all. Because the words of righteous Enoch are quoted in the book of the last Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs to their descendants who had all died in Egypt and the fact that Moses was a prince of Egypt, and would have been schooled by the greatest minds in the land, and after the Shepherd Kings were expelled from Egypt, Moses removed the leaven from God’s holy words and gave to Israel, "the chosen servant of God," the unleavened loaf, and Moses gave to his brother Aaron the regulation whereby he would choose a scape-goat, and placing his hand upon its head he would transfer the sins of Israel onto the goat, which was then sent out into wilderness to Azazel.
Although it is written in the margins of the Good News Bible that 'Azazel' is unknown and may have been some desert demon, Azazel was in fact one of the Sons of God who descended in the days of the giant Enoch’s physical Father Jared. The Name “Jared” means “Decending,’ and it was in the days of “Descending or Jared, before the birth of Enoch the giant, that the sons of God defiled themselves with the daughters of men by possessing the bodies of the men while they were with their wives, and from there were able to pass on their issue and giants were born in the earth. According to ancient Jewish tradition, Noah was also born a giant.
Azazel was the one who taught mankind all about metallurgy and the making of swords, knives, shields and breastplates, and bracelets and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all colouring tinctures Etc. Tubal-Cain, the seventh and last recorded descendant of Cain, was an artificer in copper and iron; the master of all coppersmiths and blacksmiths. The judgment of the Lord spoken through his servant Enoch, was that those angels who had come from heaven had to return to heaven, but they would have no peace, and first, they had to be bound in the valley of earth till seventy generations had passed, (Jesus is seventy generations from Enoch, See Luke 3; 23-38.) While Azazel was punished separate from the rest, he was taken out to a place in the wilderness called ‘Dudael’ where he was cast into a pit and covered with rough and jagged stones, and all sin was to be ascribed to him. As I can find no source other than the words of righteous Enoch from which Moses could have known of this I am convinced that while in Egypt he was taught from the writings of Enoch. Ten is the end of a cycle, 10+1 is the beginning of the new, Noah was the tenth from God and a new beginning, and Abraham was the tenth from Noah, another new beginning. Enoch was the seventh born son of God and Jesus who is seventy generations from Enoch, is the eleventh of the seventh born sons from God, 10+1, the new or the second Adam.
“The God of the Zulus who are descendants of Ham the great, great grandson of Enoch, is called the ‘Unkulunkulu,’ which translated to English, means great, great grandfather. When pressed as to who was the father of their great ancestor (Enoch), the general answer of the Zulus seems to be that he ‘branched off from a reed or that he came from a bed of reeds.’” (Reported by Dr. Gallaway) ---Max Muller, Science of Religion, p. 45. See Cain = Reeds. Who was the first born of the spiritual Cain?
‘The Book of Enoch the Prophet,’ XXXVII: 4, “Till the present day such wisdom has never been given by the Lord of Spirits as I have received according to my insight, according to the good pleasure of the Lord of Spirits by whom the lot of eternal life has been given to me.” This is verified in genesis 5: 23, and Hebrews 11: 5.
Enoch was transposed about 56 to 57 years after the death of God’s only begotten son Adam, (see Luke 3: 38,) who was the Most High in creation and the Lord of creatures, who had gained dominion over all other life forms that had preceded him, and was the first born of creation with the ability to comprehend the ‘I AM,’ who is the invisible spirit which develops in the animated animal body, and who was also the Prototype of the Lord of Spirits, who is the Most High who exists in the inner dimension that co-exists within this three dimensional world and is the Most High of the spiritual Godheads of all the universal species and the one who presides in the assembly of the gods and gives his decisions.
The Son of Man who is the indwelling spirit in the body of post flood mankind which has descended from Noah and the seven other souls who are all the direct descendants of Enoch the living spirit who dwells in the kingdom of God that is within you who are the tabernacle of God, who dwells behind the veil to the inner most sanctuary of the body that is you and all the descendants of Noah and the other seven souls; and who ascends to the ends of time evolving upon all the spirits of good people who fall asleep in righteousness, who had all paid the blood price for the mistakes that they had made in their earthly existence, and which spirits are gathered to the indwelling spirit. TO BE CONTINUED.
Is their any religion other than Messianic Judaism/Christianity that believes in the resurrection or freedom from death?
I do not subscribe to Judaism, Messianic or otherwise, nor do I subscribe to Christianity. I do subscribe to the deep and hidden Wisdom of the Tanakh and yes, I believe their is a resurrection of the dead... though, not in the way that most do. I live among the dead even now.
Sorry, I don't believe in a literal lake of fire, so the question makes no sense to me.
Katzpur, hi!
Rather than try to explain this myself, I'm providing you with the relevant passage from the Baha'i scriptures where these terms are explained:
Chapter 55:
SOUL, SPIRIT AND MIND
Question.—What is the difference between the mind, spirit and soul?
Hi. Sorry, but I am not acquainted with the Baha'i scriptures. How do you feel about the Bible? In the Bible the words translated "spirit" basically mean "breath". But this implies much more than the act of breathing. The Bible writer James, for example, states: "The body with out spirit is dead." (James 2:26) Hence, spirit is that which animates the body.
The animating force cannot simply be the breath, or air, moving through the lungs. Because after breathing stops, life remains in the body cells for a brief period ---"FOR SEVERAL MINUTES, " According to The World Book Encyclopedia. For this reason effortrs at resuscitation can succeed, and body organs can be transplanted from one person to another. But once the spark of life is extinguished from the cells of the body, all efforts to restore life are futile. All the breath in the world cannot revive even one cell. The spirit, then, is the invisible life force.----the spark of life----that keeps the cells alive. This life-force is sustained by breathing. --Job 34: 14,15.
Do You Have an Immortal Spirit? - Jehovah's Witnesses Official Web Site
If your wondering then... What is the soul? What is the condition of the dead? and what happens to the spirit when a person dies? The Bible provides a clear, non-contradictiory answer to these questions also......VEW
Is their any religion other than Messianic Judaism/Christianity that believes in the resurrection or freedom from death?