Resurrection of the Dead

[DallasApple]

My back hurts..

Love

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

Rev 21:8 But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death

well then we are ALL going down!!

Love

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

Pick out the good..(just a hint for you brother)

Love

Dallas

 

[Berachiah Ben Yisrael]

Pick out the good..(just a hint for you brother)

Love

Dallas

Mat 12:50 For whoever does the will of my Father who is in heaven, he is my brother, and sister, and mother."

 

[DallasApple]

Mat 12:50 For whoever does the will of my Father who is in heaven, he is my brother, and sister, and mother."

Allright then..thats right..

Love

Dallas

 

[Katzpur]

Looks to me it is to get rid of the likes of these............

Rev 21:8 But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

Well, it would accomplish that, that's for sure.

I really see no reason not to.............

And I suppose that makes you a Bible literalist in all regards? Would that be a fair assumption?

 

[Berachiah Ben Yisrael]

And I suppose that makes you a Bible literalist in all regards? Would that be a fair assumption?

I wouldn't say in all regards but in the correct meaning and context, sure.

 

[Katzpur]

I wouldn't say in all regards but in the correct meaning and context, sure.

Well, that's exactly what I'd say about my beliefs. The problem is, how do you determine in which context to take it literally and in which context to take it figuratively?

So, do you believe that the second death is a permanent sort of thing? After the spirit has died in the lake of fire, it simply ceases to exist from then on? Would be be accurate to say that you don't believe in an eternal punishment? (I'm thinking that death would be the utter obliteration of the spirit, so the suffering would have to come to an end.) Is this a lengthy, drawn out death or a relatively quick one?

 

[Berachiah Ben Yisrael]

Well, that's exactly what I'd say about my beliefs. The problem is, how do you determine in which context to take it literally and in which context to take it figuratively?

Well, in the correct meaning, and the correct context, I do take it literally.

So, do you believe that the second death is a permanent sort of thing?

No. Then it wouldn't be "death" and I don't read anywhere that they who go through the second death will be resurrected into another state.

After the spirit has died in the lake of fire, it simply ceases to exist from then on?

Thats right. Where does it state that it will stick around?

Would be be accurate to say that you don't believe in an eternal punishment? (I'm thinking that death would be the utter obliteration of the spirit, so the suffering would have to come to an end.)

Yes that would be correct.

Is this a lengthy, drawn out death or a relatively quick one?

Not sure. It doesn't state how long it will take to burn what was transfigured from the first death. Closest thing I have been able to se is "form this age to that age" and one might say that only means that they will burn from the time, or age, that they were thrown in until the time, or age, that they are burned up. No timeline though. If you are asking my opinion then I would say that it would take to awful long because there really isn't any reason for it to.

 

[S-word]

Yes. The spirit is eternal and cannot die.

So, what are you saying here? Each of us is an eternal spirit in a physical body, the physical body dies and returns to the dust from which it originated, this is the first death, but the so called eternal spirit according to your belief, cannot die and accordingly, you and those of your kind, don't believe that there is a second death. To your lot, this simply means eternal separation from God, something that I believe the spirits that develop in this world from the depravity that is fed to our children, would much prefer.
An eternal spirit can look forward to a series of tomorrows stretching onward into eternity, but must also look back on a series of yesterdays that reach back into eternity, if not, then it is not an eternal spirit, but had a beginning, and that which has a beginning must have an end, as it was once non-existent, so too after the second death, it shall again be non-existent.

All that has become the shoes that you wear, has eternally existed in one form or another, but the shoes themselves, had a beginning and have an end when they return to the substance from which they originated. Our bodies and all physical things upon the planet were created from pre-existing material and will return to that from which they originated, all living things are activated by the eternal soul of the Cosmos, the Logos, who is the divine animating principle that pervades the entire Cosmos including your body, but the spirit, is that which develops in the body, character, wisdom, insight, goodness, jealousy, hatred, love, depravity, whatever is fed into the mind, forms the spirit that will be you, and as you, the ‘I AM,’ which has developed in that body was once non-existent, unless you are given the free gift of immortality, then you the ‘I AM’ will become non-existent once again. Or does your lot teach contrary to God’s word and claim that the wages for sin is eternal life?

Before Adam the brilliant simulacrum, was cast out of paradise, and hurled down to the earth from which he had been formed, and was clothed with animal skin, hair, flesh and nerves, God had said to the heavenly spirits, now Adam has become just like us, we must drive him out of paradise lest he take of the tree of life and like us, live forever. The spirit in man does not live forever, except for those who eat of the heavenly bread, and are to receive their share of the hidden Manna, a living cell of the immortal spiritual body of the Son of Man who, when the required number of Jews and gentiles are gathered at the second Temple, which is the spiritual body of Elijah who comes to prepare the way for the peaceful rule of the resurrected body who will take the thrones that have been prepared for them and rule for the thousand year Sabbath; the seventh period of one thousand years from the day in which Adam ate of the forbidden fruit and died in that day at the age of 930, He, the only begotten prophet of God will then descend and enter the first temple where he shall be treated with outrage and hung upon a tree, and when the veil to the first temple is torn, the spirit of our saviour, see 1st Timothy 1: 1, will be poured out as fire on the ancestors of those who have taken the thrones that have been prepared for them, and death shall have no power over them.

 

[Katzpur]

Well, in the correct meaning, and the correct context, I do take it literally.

I think I'm beginning to see! If you believe it should be taken literally, then you're correct. If you believe it should be taken figuratively, then you're correct. You've got your bases covered, but you left my question unanswered. Oh well....

 

[Berachiah Ben Yisrael]

I think I'm beginning to see! If you believe it should be taken literally, then you're correct. If you believe it should be taken figuratively, then you're correct. You've got your bases covered, but you left my question unanswered. Oh well....

Well let me ask you a question.

Would you have me say I take all things literal when we have parables involved? :areyoucra

The question you asked was a loaded question and I'm not about to pull the trigger on such. Now if we want to speak on specifics you might could get a better understanding on what I mean instead of jumping to conclusions. Just because I try to be careful with my answers as not to be dishonest doesn't always mean that I am trying to be coy or evasive.

 

[Katzpur]

Well let me ask you a question.

Would you have me say I take all things literal when we have parables involved? :areyoucra

I wasn't thinking in terms of things that are clearly parables, but there are stories that may or may not be parables. I guess I'm thinking of things like a literal seven 24-hour day creation, just as an example.

The question you asked was a loaded question and I'm not about to pull the trigger on such. Now if we want to speak on specifics you might could get a better understanding on what I mean instead of jumping to conclusions. Just because I try to be careful with my answers as not to be dishonest doesn't always mean that I am trying to be coy or evasive.

I'm sorry you took it as a loaded question. It really wasn't intended to be. Believe me, I am asked enough loaded questions that I try not to lure others into that same trap. I often find myself in very much the same position I inadvertantly put you in.

But back to the topic... I believe that the lake of fire is figurative, that it is symbolic of suffering and that the emotional anguish suffered by those who are punished by being made to pay the price for their own sins will be every bit as unbearable as the physical pain associated with literally burning. I don't believe that the spirit is subject to physical pain, and that's the reason why I believe the suffering to be inflicted upon the wicked to not be physical in nature. That's why I was kind of surprised at your answer.

 

[Berachiah Ben Yisrael]

I wasn't thinking in terms of things that are clearly parables, but there are stories that may or may not be parables. I guess I'm thinking of things like a literal seven 24-hour day creation, just as an example.

Oh………. Well then, as far as that goes, I would have to say that a day to Yah could actually be millions of years. We might be able to feel how a day for us goes by and then take that feeling about our day and it just might be how Yah felt about the way his day went by. His day, I believe, is much different, time wise, than ours. Even where it is stated that a day unto Yah is like a thousand years to me is only someone showing that vast difference. It could even be millions of years. I don't know if we can even go as far as to say this is figurative. Just because we look at our own definition of a word, can we rightfully state that if there be someone with a different definition that we would have to say, when we read their words, that it be figurative? It might be that it just means different to them than we take it. ummmmmmm.........

I'm sorry you took it as a loaded question. It really wasn't intended to be. Believe me, I am asked enough loaded questions that I try not to lure others into that same trap. I often find myself in very much the same position I inadvertantly put you in.

That’s cool.

But back to the topic... I believe that the lake of fire is figurative,

And I don't. I believe it be a lake of fire. Literally.

that it is symbolic of suffering and that the emotional anguish suffered by those who are punished by being made to pay the price for their own sins will be every bit as unbearable as the physical pain associated with literally burning. I don't believe that the spirit is subject to physical pain, and that's the reason why I believe the suffering to be inflicted upon the wicked to not be physical in nature. That's why I was kind of surprised at your answer.

Oh but I never stated that there would be physical pain. What is "physical" but to do with a body? Flesh? this isn't what will be thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is said to burn with sulfur. This is to say that it is hotter than hot, if you know what I mean. Maybe hotter than anything we could even fathom as humans. Whatever our beings will be that we are transformed into, which I for one believe to be fire as well, if thrown into the lake of fire will burn up as if it never existed. It will cease to be. As far as pain and suffering, I'm having trouble finding this in scripture to do with after resurrection. What I do see is………….

Rev 21:4 He will wipe away from them every tear from their eyes. Death will be no more; neither will there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more. The first things have passed away."
Rev 21:5 He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." He said, "Write, for these words of Elohim are faithful and true."
Rev 21:6 He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alef and the Tav, the Beginning and the End. I will give freely to him who is thirsty from the spring of the water of life.
Rev 21:7 He who overcomes, I will give him these things. I will be his Elohim, and he will be my son.
Rev 21:8 But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

See we live our whole mortal lives here trying to stay in the book of life by obeying the laws that Yah gave us and if we refuse to do these laws to please Yah then when the time comes we will have wasted it all on our own thoughts and feelings and what we want and not what he wants. All the pain and suffering of living as mortals just thrown down the tubes only to meet the fire that would make us as if we never was where if we had obeyed then we might acquire eternal life in paradise.

 

[Katzpur]

Thanks for the explanation. I can understand your interpretation. It makes sense; it's just not what I believe, but it was informative. I appreciate that.

 

[Berachiah Ben Yisrael]

Thanks for the explanation. I can understand your interpretation. It makes sense; it's just not what I believe, but it was informative. I appreciate that.

Hey, thanks and nada prob.

 

[painted wolf]

The Dynastic Egyptians were all about physical resurrection.

Grandfather Coyote is well known for resurrecting. But this is his medicine and there are many good reasons that the lands of the dead and the living are separate places.

wa:do

 

[BruceDLimber]

Do you believe there is a point at which the spirit dies and is then given new life? If not, how do you define resurrection?

If by "spirit" you mean the soul, no: it never dies, and thus never needs new life.

The term "resurrection" refers to a spiritual renewal, not any sort of physical event.

Best regards,

Bruce

 

[Katzpur]

If by "spirit" you mean the soul, no: it never dies, and thus never needs new life.

The term "resurrection" refers to a spiritual renewal, not any sort of physical event.

Best regards,

Bruce

Okay, I'm even more confused now, Bruce. Do you understand the word "spirit" and "soul" to mean the same thing. Maybe that's part of my problem in understanding you, because I don't. I believe that the spirit is the essence of who we are, the life force of our existence. I believe that when the spirit enters into a physical body (probably at birth or shortly before), that body becomes "a living soul." When a person dies, the spirit leaves the body, rendering the body lifeless. The spirit, however, does not die, but continues to exist outside the body as a cognizant entity. When a person is resurrected, that spirit once again enters the body. This time, however, the body has been made immortal, so the result is not only a living soul, but an immortal being that will never again be subject to disease or death. Keeping my beliefs in mind, could you tell me how your compare. I find the Baha'i Faith so interesting but there is so much I don't know about it.

 

[VEW]

Hi, VEW. Thanks for the explanation. I am LDS and, as you may or may not know, we share your belief that there was an apostasy in the early Christian Church. While we differ in many of our beliefs, this is one we share. I understand why you would say that you are Christian but not part of Christendom. I would say that the Latter-day Saints are Christian but not a part of traditional Christianity. To us, anyone who believes that Jesus Christ is our Savior and who considers himself to be a Christian is, in at least some sense, part of "Christendom." I guess it's more a matter of semantics than anything else.

Hi Katzpur....No, I wasn't aware of our common ground...Thanks for sharing that with me...I have talked with LDS on a few occasions, but don't actually know a lot about what they believe...I have a book explaining the beliefs of several different religions....but LDS is not one of them. With the wide diversity of religious expressions that has developed aroung the world, it is at least educational and mind broadening to understand what others believe and how their beliefs originated...and I prefer to get this information from the horse's mough.......VEW