Reincarnation - Scripture or imagination?

[Shermana]

I believe the concept of reincarnation would fall into the category of imagination, philosophy of men, and empty deceit (Colossians 2:8) because according to the scriptures:

And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment... Hebrews 9:27

And again, each time a Spirit lives, he is a new man. He is not the same man twice.

Which also goes into why John the Baptist said he wasn't Elijah.

 

[Xchristian]

Posters who are interested in reincarnation can please ignore this conversation between Latuwr and myself. Perhaps we should create a new thread. Would you like to do that Latuwr?

can you please use IM? it's better than cutting our thread of thoughts.

 

[InChrist]

And again, each time a Spirit lives, he is a new man. He is not the same man twice.

Which also goes into why John the Baptist said he wasn't Elijah.

The scriptures show otherwise.


Also they are afraid of height,
And of terrors in the way;
When the almond tree blossoms,
The grasshopper is a burden,
And desire fails.
For man goes to his eternal home,
And the mourners go about the streets.

Remember your Creator before the silver cord is loosed,
Or the golden bowl is broken,
Or the pitcher shattered at the fountain,
Or the wheel broken at the well.
Then the dust will return to the earth as it was,
And the spirit will return to God who gave it. Ecclesiastes 12:5-7

 

[Shermana]

The scriptures show otherwise.


Also they are afraid of height,
And of terrors in the way;
When the almond tree blossoms,
The grasshopper is a burden,
And desire fails.
For man goes to his eternal home,
And the mourners go about the streets.

Remember your Creator before the silver cord is loosed,
Or the golden bowl is broken,
Or the pitcher shattered at the fountain,
Or the wheel broken at the well.
Then the dust will return to the earth as it was,
And the spirit will return to God who gave it. Ecclesiastes 12:5-7

How does the Spirit returning to God in any way indicate that it won't live again?

Young's literal translates "Eternal home" as "Age-during". Kind of like how Aionios works.

"For man is going unto his home age-during,"

Besides, the "Eternal home" can simply be the permanent place that Spirits always return to in between lives.

And then we still have Job who says "To the womb I return", which most certainly does not mean "The womb of the Earth" but the same context of "Naked from the womb of I came".

 

[Muffled]

Hi Muffled, nice name! If reincarnation was a true concept wouldn't you think the world would be more and more righteous as each generation comes through the process of re-birth again? Just something to think about. KB

Have you never read the Proverb by Solomon "a dog returns to his vomit."

I am a Christian but I have to fight my spirit that remembers a lifetime as a barbarian and still has an affinity for barbarism.

Also the devil continues to deceive people.

 

[Muffled]

Not really. It's not like anyone remembers the lessons they learned in previous lives. Which brings up the question: Is there any real difference between reincarnation and living one life, in terms of net advantages/disadvantages?

I believe it is better than sitting around twiddling thumbs. Some find that too boring and sleep instead.

 

[Muffled]

[/b]This sentence. I do not understand it. Can you translate it into English, please?

[/color][/color][/color]
Jesus speaks in the same way as His Apostles, meaning, non-literally and without any thought of reincarnation? Yes, that's what I'm saying.


What do you find incorrect about my argument?


No, the premise is that neither Jesus nor the general public are thinking of reincarnation. Where did I say that Jesus was speaking incorrectly? All I said was that the general public had some false ideas about who they thought Jesus was, and He said, "No. Come on guys, any other guesses?"

I believe the apostles report what scripture says about Elijah. I believe Jesus says what is the truth about Elijah returning as John the Baptist.

What evidence do you have to support this contention?

I believe your premise that Jesus is talking the same way as his apostles is incorrect. 1. Jesus is not the same person as his apostles so He doesn't view things the same way. 2. Jesus is answering a question without preambling it with words that indicate a story.

That is begging the question because your conclusion is also your premise. I don't believe you can say what Jesus is thinking. I believe you have to accept his words as stated.

 

[Muffled]

Hi Xchristian,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
Just because you presently have been denied access to the mind of My Messiah Yahushua, this does not mean that I should not work for you and for others to gain access.
Reincarnation claims gnosis. Like you, I make no such claim for I have learned to follow my father Paul in that regard:
1 Corinthians 8:2
2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
How can any man claim to know reincarnation without coming to an awareness of exactly when and how spirit (the soul according to the adherents of reincarnation) enters the flesh of a baby?
It is for this awareness that I have begun to question JayJayDee about the origin of the spirit within her. How about you, Xchristian? You have a spirit. From whence did your spirit come, and exactly when and how did your spirit become a part of you?
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

Gen 2:7 And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

I believe there is no Biblical evidence that God is creating new spirits. He did it once in the beginning and even Adam had a pre-existing spirit breathed into him.

Paul received much of his infromation from the Holy Spirit as do I but that does not mean I know everything but only what the Holy Spirit has revealed to me.

 

[Xchristian]

brother Muffled, bless him believes in reincarnation ... wonderful

 

[JayJayDee]

Gen 2:7 And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

I believe there is no Biblical evidence that God is creating new spirits. He did it once in the beginning and even Adam had a pre-existing spirit breathed into him.

It would be beneficial at this juncture to define the word "spirit" because it seems that many here are confused about what it actually means in the scriptures.

"The Greek pneu′ma (spirit) comes from pne′o, meaning “breathe or blow,” and the Hebrew ru′ach (spirit) is believed to come from a root having the same meaning. Ru′ach and pneu′ma, then, basically mean “breath” but have extended meanings beyond that basic sense. (Compare Hab 2:19; Re 13:15.) They can also mean wind; the vital force in living creatures; one’s spirit; spirit persons, including God and his angelic creatures; and God’s active force, or holy spirit.

All these meanings have something in common: They all refer to that which is invisible to human sight and which gives evidence of force in motion. Such invisible force is capable of producing visible effects.

Another Hebrew word, nesha‧mah′ (Gen 2:7), also means “breath,” but it is more limited in range of meaning than ru′ach. The Greek pno‧e′ seems to have a similar limited sense (Acts 17:25) and was used by the Septuagint translators to render nesha‧mah′." (From Insight on the Scriptures Vol 2 WTBTS)

Since most here seem to believe that the spirit is the same as the soul (or has a similar connotation) understanding that the spirit has no personality, will help us to see that many have been suckered into believing the devil's lie that you don't really die.
What then is death?
It is the absence of life...the very opposite of it.

There is NO teaching of an inherent immortal soul or spirit that departs the body at death in the Bible.

Where was Adam told he would go when the death sentence was finally carried out?

"In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return." (Gen 3:19)

No 'afterlife' of ANY description is foretold for Adam....just death and a returning to the dust.

It is satan who wants you to believe that we do not actually die...isn't that what he told Eve? "You surely will not die". God said they would...so who lied?

The Jews originally had no belief in an immortal soul, so Jesus never taught it.
They adopted it later from Platonic Greek teachings, who inherited it from the Babylonians.

Demonic spirits can give powerful demonstrations to convince humans that they are in fact spirits of the dead. Why do we think that God forbade communicating with spirits?

“When you are entered into the land that Jehovah your God is giving you, you must not learn to do according to the detestable things of those nations."

One of the "detestable things" that the nations did was communicate with the spirits who masquerade as gods and also as departed spirits of the dead.

"There should not be found in you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, anyone who employs divination, a practicer of magic or anyone who looks for omens or a sorcerer, or one who binds others with a spell or anyone who consults a spirit medium or a professional foreteller of events or anyone who inquires of the dead. For everybody doing these things is something detestable to Jehovah, and on account of these detestable things Jehovah your God is driving them away from before you." (Deut 18:9-12)

If these spirits were harmless spirits of our dearly departed, then why would God forbid his people to have anything to do with them?

The spirit in man can mean his inner self that drives him in certain directions.....that causes him to behave in ways that are unique to his personality. To be a strong advocate for a cause or rebellious in his nature or kind and generous towards others even at great cost to himself. The spirit in man is his driving force.

It can also mean the breath that fills his lungs....an inner command to keep the soul (person) alive.

It can be the spark of life that animates all living creatures, or it can be the power of God himself.

Since the Jews never believed in an immortal part of man that left the body at death, the scriptures are not speaking about that when it talks about Elijah or John the Baptist or Jeremiah returned to life. They believed in what the scriptures taught...RESURRECTION.

A resurrection is when a person is restored to life miraculously by the power of God.
It has nothing to do with souls floating about in heaven, waiting for the next body to come along like a bus.

Seriously, if you continue to swallow the devil's lies, you will never learn the wonderful truth about the resurrection.

Jesus said, "Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment." (John 5:28, 29)

Think about that.....Jesus is calling people out of their tombs. How could he do that unless they were all still in them?

The Bible teaches that death is like sleep from which only God by his spirit can awaken people. (John 11:11) That spirit operated through Jesus Christ and his apostles when the resurrections spoken about in the Bible took place.

Where did these resurrected ones come back to? The earth, to be reunited with their families. Resurrection and the curing of all sickness and deformity was a demonstration of what was to occur in the 'new earth' under the rule of God's kingdom. (Rev 21:1-4)

There is no invisible spirit that survives death. The spirit is the air in our lungs that keeps us living. When a body dies, the spirit is extinguished and the soul ceases to exist. We go back to the dust to 'rest in peace', awaiting the resurrection.

That is what the Bible teaches.

Paul received much of his information from the Holy Spirit as do I but that does not mean I know everything but only what the Holy Spirit has revealed to me.

Please be careful of the source of the spirit directing you. If it is in conflict with the scriptures, it could be that the deceiver has worked his magic on you.

In Paul's day there were those who wanted to think that they too were guided by God's spirit....he warned, "For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. It is therefore nothing great if his ministers also keep transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness. But their end shall be according to their works." (2 Cor 11:13-15)

If one dabbles in spiritism and promotes teachings that are not from God's word, they are ministers of the wrong god. They may appear to be good and righteous people but they are misled by a power greater than they are. He is not called a deceiver for nothing.

In Israel, practice of spiritism in all its forms, carried the death penalty. God has not changed his mind about such things and the devil has never changed his tactics.

"Let him who has ears listen"......please.

 

[Xchristian]

JayJayDee:

How can the baptist be Elijah as jesus said? or is that a trinitarian addition.

 

[JayJayDee]

JayJayDee:

How can the baptist be Elijah as jesus said? or is that a trinitarian addition.

It was not said that he 'was' Elijah reincarnated...only that he would do the same work and have the same persuasive power as Elijah.

When the Jews thought that Jesus was John or Jeremiah or Elijah...they were not suggesting belief in reincarnation...they were expressing belief in the resurrection.

They were taught that God can raise the dead. Do you see the difference?

 

[Xchristian]

It was not said that he 'was' Elijah reincarnated...only that he would do the same work and have the same persuasive power as Elijah.

[Mt 17:12][ but I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but they did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of Man is about to suffer at their hands."]
[Mt 17:13][ Then the disciples understood that he was speaking to them about John the Baptist.]


What you wrote is the bible according to you, ... the bible we have is different.

sorry.

 

[Shermana]

Jayjaydee

It was not said that he 'was' Elijah reincarnated...only that he would do the same work and have the same persuasive power as Elijah.

And what exactly was the work that Elijah did that made him so unique of a prophet specifically that only paralleled to John? Where do we see evidence of his "persuasive power" that was different from other prophets?

When the Jews thought that Jesus was John or Jeremiah or Elijah...they were not suggesting belief in reincarnation...they were expressing belief in the resurrection.

We have yet to see any difference in the concept of the "Ressurection", with Josephus attests the Pharisees pretty much considered what we now call "Reincarnation".

They were taught that God can raise the dead. Do you see the difference?

Where does it specifically say they were taught God would only raise the dead in their same body? Apparently, according to Josephus, they only learned that concept within 40 years of Jesus's death by your logic.

 

[JayJayDee]

[Mt 17:12][ but I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but they did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of Man is about to suffer at their hands."]
[Mt 17:13][ Then the disciples understood that he was speaking to them about John the Baptist.]


What you wrote is the bible according to you, ... the bible we have is different.

"However, the angel said to him: “Have no fear, Zech‧a‧ri′ah, because your supplication has been favorably heard, and your wife Elizabeth will become mother to a son to you, and you are to call his name John. And you will have joy and great gladness, and many will rejoice over his birth; for he will be great before Jehovah. But he must drink no wine and strong drink at all, and he will be filled with holy spirit right from his mother’s womb; 16 and many of the sons of Israel will he turn back to Jehovah their God. Also, he will go before him with E‧li′jah’s spirit and power, to turn back the hearts of fathers to children and the disobedient ones to the practical wisdom of righteous ones, to get ready for Jehovah a prepared people.”(Luke 1:13-17)

 

[Xchristian]

sister Dee ...

he will go before him with E‧li′jah’s spirit and power,


this means the same spirit ... which you defined above as the breath, of Elijah, .. which means reincarnation.

Mr Brown tried that before, and he knows it's the same thing.

By the way, if john is not Elijah, then jesus lied, and worse, jesus is no messiah either!

 

[JayJayDee]

Hi JayJayDee,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
You wrote:
"There is no invisible spirit that survives death. The spirit is the air in our lungs that keeps us living."
Your writings on the nature of spirit indicate to me that you yourself are like the Sadducees who did not believe in spirit. I myself am of the Tzaddikim so I do have a whole lot of Sadducee in me. Even so, I do believe in the spirit that is something apart from myself; therefore, I also am a Pharisee. And I do believe that I possess a spirit that is something more than the air in my lungs. In other words, spirit is not at all something physical!
This is what My Messiah Yahushua had to say about the spirit:
John 6:63
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words (speech, spoken word) that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
After Messiah's resurrection, Messiah engaged in this discourse and exercise with HIS Disciples:
John 20:21-23
21 Then said Yahushua to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Is Holy Spirit really only the air that fills our lungs? Is this what Messiah breathed upon HIS Disiples, air that filled HIS lungs? When you think about it, are not these words rather familiar? What was the first occasion in which man was breathed upon?
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

Laruwr, would you kindly read post #171?

I have tried to explain in great detail what the spirit is. The word "spirit" does not have just one meaning. The 'spirit' in man can mean different things. The air in his lungs is just one meaning. It can also mean the driving force of his personality; it is the context that determines its usage. God's spirit is not man's spirit. God's spirit can empower man in many ways, but it is completely different.

I am neither a Sadducee nor a Pharisee. I believe that the spirit of man is a precious and wonderful gift in all its meanings.

I hope I have explained myself more clearly.

Peace to you.

 

[Xchristian]

can someone please have a straight answer to my clean cut question?

I will repeat again just in case.


jesus is nobody without Elijah sent before him .. #cf OT
And therefore people asked jesus, shouldn't Elijah be before the christ?

which means:
if you are the christ, then where's the Elijah that comes before you?
jesus said Elijah has come .. that's john the baptist!

I know john the baptist showed he didn't know jesus, (#cf gJohn) .. but that's how the xtians like to think

now for jesus to be the christ there HAS to be reincarnation.

Why don't they simply accept it?

 

[Latuwr]

Hi JayJayDee,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
Shabbat Shalom!
Did I not quote you from your post #171?
I think that I understand your position on the spirit of YAHWEH ELOHIM, but I do not think that you understand my position.
I maintain that the spirit of ELOHIM is in no way physical!
Accordingly, what does the gift of holy spirit mean to you, JayJayDee? And if you would be so kind, upon whom was the spirit of ELOHIM first breathed?
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

 

[JayJayDee]

can someone please have a straight answer to my clean cut question?

I will repeat again just in case.


jesus is nobody without Elijah sent before him .. #cf OT
And therefore people asked jesus, shouldn't Elijah be before the christ?

which means:
if you are the christ, then where's the Elijah that comes before you?
jesus said Elijah has come .. that's john the baptist!

Once again......

"Now this is the witness of John when the Jews sent forth priests and Levites from Jerusalem to him to ask him: “Who are you?” And he confessed and did not deny, but confessed: “I am not the Christ.” And they asked him: “What, then? Are you E‧li′jah?” And he said: “I am not.” “Are you The Prophet?” And he answered: “No!” Therefore they said to him: “Who are you? that we may give an answer to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?” He said: “I am a voice of someone crying out in the wilderness, ‘MAKE the way of Jehovah straight,’ just as Isaiah the prophet said.” Now those sent forth were from the Pharisees. So they questioned him and said to him: “Why, then, do you baptize if you yourself are not the Christ or E‧li′jah or The Prophet?” John answered them, saying: “I baptize in water. In the midst of you one is standing whom you do not know, the one coming behind me, but the lace of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie."

"and many of the sons of Israel will he turn back to Jehovah their God. Also, he will go before him with E‧li′jah’s spirit and power, to turn back the hearts of fathers to children and the disobedient ones to the practical wisdom of righteous ones, to get ready for Jehovah a prepared people."

So, how was John the Baptist used in a work that was similar to Elijah?

The prophet Malachi foretold a message from Jehovah....
“Look! I am sending to you people Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah. And he must turn the heart of fathers back toward sons, and the heart of sons back toward fathers; in order that I may not come and actually strike the earth with a devoting of it to destruction" (Malachi 4:5, 6)
Elijah lived some 500 years before those words were spoken. Since this was a prophecy, Jews of the first century C.E. were in expectation of Elijah’s coming to fulfill it. (Matthew 17:10)

Even if they thought it WAS Elijah in the flesh...it would be because God had resurrected him...NOT because they thought he was reincarnated. Don't you comprehend the difference? Can you comprehend the difference? The Jews did not believe that humans had some spiritual part of themselves that left the body at death. Why do you think Jesus had such a hard time trying to convince his disciples they they would rule with him in heaven? They just could not accept such a foreign concept.

John wore clothing of camel hair and a leather girdle around his loins, similar to the dress of the prophet Elijah. John’s food consisted of insect locusts and wild honey. (2Kings 1:8; Matt 3:4; Mark 1:6)

An angel had told John’s father, Zechariah, that John would have “Elijah’s spirit and power” and would “get ready for Jehovah a prepared people.” (Luke 1:17)
The baptism John performed was a public symbol of an individual’s repentance over his sins against the Law, which was to lead the Jews to Christ. (Luke 3:3-6; Galatians 3:24) John’s work thus ‘got a prepared people ready for Jehovah.’

Elijah’s work had a parallel in the activities of John the Baptizer. It didn't mean that John WAS Elijah, it meant that he was used in a similar way to Elijah.

You are still misunderstanding the word "spirit" as it is used in connection with John. Read post # 171.

I know john the baptist showed he didn't know jesus,

Since Jesus was a close relative of John, that is highly unlikely. He did not know for sure that he was the Messiah until he saw the holy spirit anoint him.

now for jesus to be the christ there HAS to be reincarnation.

Why don't they simply accept it?

I'm sorry, but there is nothing to accept. Your 'spirit' is not you. It animates you but your soul is you....two completely different things in the Bible. :yes: