Reincarnation - Scripture or imagination?

[JayJayDee]

[FONT=&quot]Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Hello Latuwr, thank you and welcome to the RF. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

You correctly understand that men and women are souls. Death comes to a soul when the spirit is forced to leave our bodies.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]My understanding of the "spirit" leaving the body is that the "breath" that keeps us alive by oxygenating every cell in our body, ceases when we stop breathing, and our living organism that depends on this "breath of life" dies, with no conscious existence in any afterlife. (Eccl 9:5, 6, 10; Psalm 146:4) We all go to the same place as other living things that die. (Eccl 3:19)....'back to the dust' (Gen 3:19)
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

I am curious, from whom did you receive your spirit which does now animate your flesh? Did you receive your spirit from your physical parents?

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It was Jehovah, my Creator who gave man and other living things, 'the breath of life'. The ability to breathe is passed on from our parents whose DNA produced the "soul" that is 'us' as individuals.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I do not believe that God gives breath to all living things individually. He gave them all life when he created them, but ability to pass on life was the miracle. It is an automatic response for all human babies (and other breathing life forms) to take a breath when they are born. God created them to do that. If it were God who gave babies the breath of life individually, then how would you explain that some babies never get to take that first breath? How would you explain the conception of a child from an act of violence such as rape?
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

If not, how did spirit come to inhabit your flesh so that you did become a living soul?

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Spirit is literally our "breath". It does not inhabit our flesh, it is something we do with our beautifully designed lungs so that our flesh can be regenerated from minute to minute. We do not have to force ourselves to breathe, do we? It is a natural and very powerful 'command' that must be obeyed so that it keeps us alive, even when we are sleeping or unconscious.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]When someone 'dies' (stops breathing) their 'spirit' can be returned by CPR. Re-oxygenating the body by putting air in the lungs and artificially pumping the heart, can bring the 'spirit' back. It is a medical procedure however, that operates within the parameters set by God in the first place. If the brain (the drivers seat of the soul) has not been deprived of oxygen for too long, life and breathing can be restored. This is not really a miracle but a wonderful blessing that can return someone from the brink of death and return them to their families. But regardless of all attempts, life will eventually cease for all of us. Our 'spirit' will leave our body for the last time in this world. It will "go out" much like a candle when it is extinguished.

"The spirit returns to the true God who gave it" in that the future life prospects for that person rest with God and his plans for the resurrection. Only God can then return the spirit. (Eccl 12:7; John 5:28, 29)
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply,

Thank you for the opportunity to share my beliefs with you. Your kindness and humility are truly appreciated. [/FONT]:yes:



[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

 

[Xchristian]

Original Sin ... inherited sin .. food for thought ...

Actually, the original sin according to the Trinitarians is the key to the incarnation of god.
No original sin ... no point in crucifixion .. no crucifixion, no point in jesus.

but the origin of all this is the inheritance of sin!!

 

[Latuwr]

Hi Xchristian,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
You wrote:
"That would have been the only reason to have him alive!"
You seem to speak above as one who knows rather than one who is without knowledge.
Moses taught this about secret things:
Deuteronomy 29:29
29 The secret things belong unto YAHWEH our ELOHIM: ........
There are several reasons why Lazarus would remain silent, and, of course, these reasons are secret things which belong unto My Messiah Yahushua.
Only those who belong to HIM have access to HIS mind (1 Corinthian 2:16), and it is only these Believers, therefore, that are in a position to share in the secret things which do belong to HIM.
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

 

[JayJayDee]

Original Sin ... inherited sin .. food for thought ...

Actually, the original sin according to the Trinitarians is the key to the incarnation of god.
No original sin ... no point in crucifixion .. no crucifixion, no point in jesus.

but the origin of all this is the inheritance of sin!!

I am not a trinitarian. I do not accept that Jesus was an incarnation of Jehovah. He was sent by God to offer a way for Adam's children to be free from the curse of sin and death. These were passed on by some kind of genetic defect that occurred when they disobeyed a direct command that carried the death penalty.

Implementation of the sentence is not specifically detailed, but since it took almost a thousand years for Adam to degenerate into death, it is clear that death was the result of the human organism breaking down until organ failure took place.

By 'unplugging' from their 'power source' they kept living for a long time, but eventually they died. They were told that 'in the day' they ate the forbidden fruit, they would die. Since a thousand human years is but a 'day' to God, no human has lived for even one 'day'.

The idea that genetic defects cause death is well documented in medicical literature.

We have to remember that the Creator has an overview of man's existence that our limited perspective does not allow us to see from his vantage point.
He has knowledge that allows him to see in all directions. We make decisions based on what we think is the right thing at the time, hoping that we have made the right decision. He can see the result of all decisions before he makes them.

He gave mankind something that he enjoys himself...free will. In order to give them such a risky gift, he had to be sure that they would use it wisely. He kept the knowledge of evil from them so that this gift would enhance their lives. All they needed to do to retain this wonderful capacity, (as the true gift it was meant to be,) was to trust their God and Father and obey him.

A rebel however, was lurking in the shadows and saw an opportunity to elevate himself and get these lower beings to worship him. He planted a seed of doubt in the newby when she was alone and covinced her that knowing good and evil for themselves would be beneficial....even making them 'like God'.
She fell for it and then convinced her husband to disobey as well.

What action would God now take? What would be accomplished if he just snuffed them all out and started again? What was to stop another rebel from the spirit realm abusing his free will too, and starting the process all over again?

God took the long range view and allowed all of his children, to whom free will was granted, to see the results when it is abused. Unrestrained use of free will then became a curse because it was exercised outside the parameters of God's will.

It's a lesson that God's children in both realms will never forget. The outcome of this whole exercise will vindicate God as the rightful Sovereign over his creation and set precedents for all eternity. No rebel will ever hijack God's purpose again.

The human family will live on earth in peace and everlasting security just as God intended at the beginning and his angelic sons will have proven themselves as well.

The end will indeed justify the means. Eternity spent in peace and happiness, as it was intended at the start, will make those who took God's side of the issue, so glad they did not desert Him :yes:

 

[Xchristian]

Moses taught this about secret things:
Deuteronomy 29:29
29 The secret things belong unto YAHWEH our ELOHIM: ........

Moses knew nothing about your jesus, sorry.

I would say, Moses, and Judaism as a whole has nothing to do with jesus and what came afterwards.

 

[Xchristian]

He was sent by God to offer a way for Adam's children to be free from the curse of sin and death. These were passed on by some kind of genetic defect that occurred when they disobeyed a direct command that carried the death penalty.

I am, I think, one of Adam's children, I don't really need jesus. This concept was spoodfed to me, it was forced upon me, I was terrorised into believing it for so long.

Now, I don't believe in him, and I am sure that this is the right thing.


I don't need someone who believes in reincarnation, as I have already proven jesus does.

 

[JayJayDee]

I am, I think, one of Adam's children, I don't really need jesus. This concept was spoodfed to me, it was forced upon me, I was terrorised into believing it for so long.

I am sorry to hear that. But the knee jerk reaction you had as an adult, perhaps should not have been to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
What parents or churches teach children about God and Jesus isn't necessarily true. But it doesn't mean that they don't exist or that they can't be other than what you were taught to believe "for so long".

I have taught people from many religious backgrounds about the Bible's God and how his purpose and activities have been so distorted by various churches and other faiths. Those who have been taken in by Christendom 's teachings often end up like you...hating the very fabric of their former religious ties. Once the lies are exposed...there's no going back.

Now, I don't believe in him, and I am sure that this is the right thing.

If you are convinced of that, then nothing anyone says will dissuade you.
No one can come to Christ unless they are invited to by his Father. (John 6:44)

This is why we have free will. We will all 'reap what we have sown' by the decisions we have made about who God is (if he even exists) and in what way we should worship him, (if we choose to worship anything at all.)

I don't need someone who believes in reincarnation, as I have already proven jesus does.

Reincarnation is a little different to incarnation. The word incarnation mean to be 'embodied in human form'. If Jesus was reincarnated, he would have to have lived in the flesh before.
The Bible says that Jesus was with his Father in the spirit realm prior to coming to earth to be born as a human child. The Father is a spirit and so are all the other beings who inhabit that realm. Jesus was not flesh until he was born as a human.

Once Jesus had accomplished all that he was sent to do, there is no need for him to take on flesh again. His rulership is from heaven over redeemed mankind on earth.

There is no such thing as reincarnation. That would require an immortal soul and the Bible does not teach that we have one. :sad:

 

[Latuwr]

Hi Xchristian,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
You wrote:
"Moses knew nothing about your jesus, sorry."
This is the testimony of My Messiah Yahushua concerning Moses:
John 5:46-47
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
It is good that you are a proud agnostic (without knowing, Luke 23:34); otherwise, you would be held accountable for your inability to see My Messiah Yahushua in the Law of Moses.
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

 

[Xchristian]

This is the testimony of My Messiah Yahushua concerning Moses:
John 5:46-47
..

That's what John wants Moses to say, not what Moses had to say, you got to know the difference.

 

[Xchristian]

I have taught people from many religious backgrounds about the Bible's God and how his purpose and activities have been so distorted by various churches

rather than wasting the thread on side acts, how about working a bit on the 'reincarnation' of this particular thread?

 

[JayJayDee]

Moses knew nothing about your jesus, sorry.

Yes he did.

God told Moses...."A prophet I shall raise up for them from the midst of their brothers, like you; and I shall indeed put my words in his mouth, and he will certainly speak to them all that I shall command him. And it must occur that the man who will not listen to my words that he will speak in my name, I shall myself require an account from him." (Deut 18:18, 19)

The apostle Peter identified that prophet....“Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get your sins blotted out, that seasons of refreshing may come from the person of Jehovah and that he may send forth the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven, indeed, must hold within itself until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old time. In fact, Moses said, ‘Jehovah God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me. you must listen to him according to all the things he speaks to you. Indeed, any soul that does not listen to that Prophet will be completely destroyed from among the people". (Acts 3:19-23)

I would say, Moses, and Judaism as a whole has nothing to do with jesus and what came afterwards.

And I would say that you are sadly mistaken.
But you are free to believe whatever you wish.

Either the Jews are lying or the Christians are.

Take a look at Israel's history, recorded in their own scriptures, and tell me if their track record is anything to go by.

Then show me the same record in the Christian scriptures.

We are not talking about what happened after the apostasy that Jesus and the apostles foretold, (when 'weeds' of counterfeit Christianity would teach falsehood) but what record is there in scripture for us to compare.

 

[Xchristian]

Yes he did.

God told Moses...."A prophet I shall raise up for them from the midst of their brothers, like you; and I shall indeed put my words in his mouth, and he will certainly speak to them all that I shall command him. And it must occur that the man who will not listen to my words that he will speak in my name, I shall myself require an account from him." (Deut 18:18, 19)

There are so many mistakes here ...
jesus was not a prophet .. give me one single prophecy that came true.
second, there are hundreds of prophets in between, why jesus in particlar?
third, in order to be a prophet he has to fit certain criteria, none of which applies to him.

thanks

The apostle Peter identified that prophet..... (Acts 3:19-23)

not relevant

 

[Xchristian]

I hope everyone respects the thread owner's wish, this thread is about 'reincarnation'.

 

[JayJayDee]

I hope everyone respects the thread owner's wish, this thread is about 'reincarnation'.

I have dealt with reincarnation and why I do not believe in it.

Do you wish to start another thread on why Jesus was a 'prophet like Moses'?

 

[Xchristian]

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...143253-jesus-prophecies-strange-but-true.html

 

[Xchristian]

I have dealt with reincarnation and why I do not believe in it.

I read your beliefs, but I didn't read answers to scriptures, so I have to leave it at that.

 

[Latuwr]

Hi JayJayDee,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
Thank you for your well written answer and analysis! I could not detect any aggression in your response (even so, I have been told by others that I am very naive) so I will respond, I hope, in like manner, that is, without aggression to a beloved brother or sister!
Man is a physical image of a spiritual being. You have provided me with an adequate description of the physical image, man. So, what about the spiritual man that the physical man shadows?
We physical humans bear about as much resemblance to YAHWEH ELOHIM as your own physical image reflected in a mirror bears to what you actually are.
What is it exactly that our physical ability to breathe represents? In other words, what is Holy Spirit? Is Holy Spirit simply our ability to physically breathe. Is it oxygen that give life to our flesh, or is it holy spirit?
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

 

[Xchristian]

Brother Latuwr

can you please concentrate on the topic? it's about reincarnation here.

 

[InChrist]

I believe the concept of reincarnation would fall into the category of imagination, philosophy of men, and empty deceit (Colossians 2:8) because according to the scriptures:

And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment... Hebrews 9:27

 

[JayJayDee]

Posters who are interested in reincarnation can please ignore this conversation between Latuwr and myself. Perhaps we should create a new thread. Would you like to do that Latuwr?

But I will answer him here since he has asked.

Hi JayJayDee,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!

And to you.

Thank you for your well written answer and analysis! I could not detect any aggression in your response (even so, I have been told by others that I am very naive) so I will respond, I hope, in like manner, that is, without aggression to a beloved brother or sister!

I am not an aggressive person Latuwr. I try to imitate the Lord Jesus when responding to polite inquiry. I am most grateful for your moderate and respectful tone.

Man is a physical image of a spiritual being. You have provided me with an adequate description of the physical image, man. So, what about the spiritual man that the physical man shadows?
We physical humans bear about as much resemblance to YAHWEH ELOHIM as your own physical image reflected in a mirror bears to what you actually are.

I believe that we reflect (although poorly at present) the qualities of our invisible God and Father. We have a moral sense that is complemented by a God-given conscience.
The spiritual part of man is linked to the operation of his conscience.

Even those who have never read God's word are judged on the dictates of their conscience. (Rom 2:12-15) People who ignore the small inner voice will render it inactive. It is God's voice within us.

I believe that we have a spirit or attitude that God sees and directs if he finds an agreeable heart. He draws such ones to his son (John 6:44) He doesn't demand perfection from us as "he remembers that we are dust" and subject to our sinful nature. Christ provided the means for us to have our sins forgiven, but it is not a privilege we can take for granted. Genuine heartfelt repentence is required or no forgiveness can take place.

The spirit in man is not to be confused with the spirit of God.

"Spirit" is used in the scriptures in many ways. Apart from "breath", it can also mean wind; the vital force in living creatures; one’s own spirit; spirit persons, including God and his angelic creatures; and God’s active force, or holy spirit.

All these meanings have something in common: They all refer to that which is invisible to human sight and which gives evidence of force in motion. Such invisible force is capable of producing visible effects.

This is my understanding.

What is it exactly that our physical ability to breathe represents? In other words, what is Holy Spirit? Is Holy Spirit simply our ability to physically breathe. Is it oxygen that give life to our flesh, or is it holy spirit?

God's spirit is the power behind his will. Holy spirit is God's ability to empower even sinful humans to have his will accomplished. (Phil 4:10-13)

Before our Lord Jesus was baptized, he was simply Jesus of Nazareth. When he came up from the water, holy spirit in the form of a dove descended upon him and God's voice was heard declaring his approval of his beloved son.

With the power afforded by God's spirit, Jesus was anointed with God's power which enabled him to perform miraculous feats. He was not able to do this prior to the spirit's anointing.

Holy spirit was also poured out on Jesus' disciples at Pentecost, also enabling them to do marvelous things that they were not previously able to do.

Thank you for your questions. I assure you that I am a Christian who loves the Lord and his Father dearly.

Blessings to you.