reasons for your theistic mind set?

[loganonekenobi]

I don't think either way really matters in the grand scheme of things by which all of it remains empty. During my time as a theist, I never dreamed that id ever be an atheist, even though I knew that's how life started as being without gods. Given the dynamics and potential throughout what I view as a continuum , I suspect no one will ever be able to escape designations such as atheism and theism in any permanent way.

It would be nice if we didnt need to throw around those labels. Alas such is currently not the case.

 

[Ancient Soul]

So far, every ideas and concepts i have red and learned from many religions are all described in detail in the Jewish religion.
I mean that in the sense of explanations how the spiritual world works, not in things a religion asks you to do.

You got me curious, can you do some copy and paste explanations of "how the spiritual world works"?

 

[loganonekenobi]

Well, it wouldn't be the first time that human beings have taken the words of Jesus and ran with them beyond their intended boundaries.

indeed true. I have been studying the formation of the new testaments from an historical point of view (not theological) . Let's just say that the writers used a wee bit of creative license.

 

[David T]

Sorry but if you have a point it flew right past me.

Of course this is the dr who thread. I found the tolkien thread a bit more grounded in reality. Thanks for the entertsinment dr. Off to tolkien land.

 

[Axe Elf]

Then you are going against your very own "god" then:

Exodus 22:20
"Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the LORD must be destroyed.


Deuteronomy 13:12-16

12If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,

13Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;

14Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;

15Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.

16And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.


Deuteronomy 17:2-7

2"(A)If there is found in your midst, in any of your towns, which the LORD your God is giving you, a man or a woman who does what is evil in the sight of the LORD your God, by transgressing His covenant,

3and has gone and (B)served other gods and worshiped them, (C)or the sun or the moon or any of the heavenly host, (D)which I have not commanded,

4and if it is told you and you have heard of it, then you shall inquire thoroughly. Behold, if it is true and the thing certain that this detestable thing has been done in Israel,

5then you shall bring out that man or that woman who has done this evil deed to your gates, that is, the man or the woman, and (E)you shall stone them to death.

Deuteronomy 17:12-13
12 The person who acts arrogantly, refusing to listen either to the priest who stands there serving the LORD your God or to the judge, must die. You must purge the evil from Israel. 13 Then all the people will hear [about it], be afraid, and no longer behave arrogantly.

Deuteronomy 18:20-22
20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.”

Do you really speak King James English? I find that trying to understand difficult theological concepts written in a language I don't actually speak to be kind of like trying to learn French from a textbook written in Spanish.

But I digress...

Christianity (you know, the religion we were talking about) has to do with CHRIST (hence the "Christ" part of "Christianity"), Who didn't come along until the New Testament, where He paved the way for common men to enter into the Holy of Holies (the presence of God). That's what we were talking about--does one have to recognize Jesus as the mechanism by which one can enter into the presence of God, or can one merely enter into the presence of God by seeking Him, even in ignorance of the one who opened that road for him to take into the presence of God? I tend to think not, but I can recognize that there is room for a legitimate difference of opinion.

As to worshipping other gods in the Old Testament, I am not sure how that played out without Jesus having paved the way for the common man to enter into the presence of God yet, but I am reminded of a passage in Acts (from the New Testament, after Jesus' death) where Paul is hanging out in a city where they worship a lot of other idols, and Paul notices one idol to "the unknown god." Paul tells them that since they are already worshipping an unknown god, he will tell them about the God they do not know, and proceeds to tell them about the One God (Acts 17:23-31).

Since I doubt that the people who built the idol had the One God in mind when they built it, it appears that the One God is ok with co-opting worship that doesn't necessarily name Him by that name, so long as the worshippers are earnest in seeking Him.

But again, I recognize that there is room for a legitimate difference of opinion, so if you say that I am wrong, I will not argue the matter with you. I just don't want to exclude anyone from heaven on the basis of my own judgment that God may not be excluding Himself.

It's not Biblical, but if you've read C.S. Lewis' tales of Narnia, there is a passage in "The Last Battle" where a young soldier who has all of his life worshipped the evil god Tash meets the good god Aslan and realizes that he has been wrong all along. Aslan advises him that no one can do good works in Tash's name; all good works are in reality done for Aslan. Likewise, no one can truly do evil for Aslan, all evil works are in reality done to honor Tash. And so the young soldier is in fact "saved" by virtue of his character, even though he had ascribed the wrong name to his works all along. I wonder if the real God might not work something like that as well.

 

[Ancient Soul]

More like illusory. I tend to think and suspect reality is multifaceted and dependent on our senses and our instrumentation. There may be other facets of reality that are undetectable at present that we are not aware of.

To put it in another way, I think there are aspects of reality that we cannot detect due to our limitations that are just as real as our own perceptions and experiences.

A good hypothetical example to get an idea of what I'm trying to say, would be to imagine yourself shrunk down to the atomic-level where all that is seen is nothing more than individual atoms and initiate an exhaustive search for life. If perchance we were not aware that atoms were actually components that create various molecules, I would suspect we would conclude that life does not exist anywhere you look, but of course we know that is not true as we are aware that atoms create molecules and molecules can form organic and inorganic forms that result in living organisms.

The reality around us may be only a facet of reality that we can see and experience within a continuum that is dynamic and in flux , where what we see as reality today, may be something vastly different.

By emptiness it's not saying reality isn't real but rather the 'realness' by which reality is approached and is accepted at the moment is essentially phenomenal and temporary in terms of rising and falling and therefore never permanent and static. I tend to think reality changes, and takes on different characteristics in a continual and neverending manor.

That's a good point!

And that's at the very core of one's spiritually evolving as ever new information is acquired.

 

[Ancient Soul]

Do you really speak King James English? I find that trying to understand difficult theological concepts written in a language I don't actually speak to be kind of like trying to learn French from a textbook written in Spanish.

But I digress...

Christianity (you know, the religion we were talking about) has to do with CHRIST (hence the "Christ" part of "Christianity"), Who didn't come along until the New Testament, where He paved the way for common men to enter into the Holy of Holies (the presence of God). That's what we were talking about--does one have to recognize Jesus as the mechanism by which one can enter into the presence of God, or can one merely enter into the presence of God by seeking Him, even in ignorance of the one who opened that road for him to take into the presence of God? I tend to think not, but I can recognize that there is room for a legitimate difference of opinion.

As to worshipping other gods in the Old Testament, I am not sure how that played out without Jesus having paved the way for the common man to enter into the presence of God yet, but I am reminded of a passage in Acts (from the New Testament, after Jesus' death) where Paul is hanging out in a city where they worship a lot of other idols, and Paul notices one idol to "the unknown god." Paul tells them that since they are already worshipping an unknown god, he will tell them about the God they do not know, and proceeds to tell them about the One God (Acts 17:23-31).

Since I doubt that the people who built the idol had the One God in mind when they built it, it appears that the One God is ok with co-opting worship that doesn't necessarily name Him by that name, so long as the worshippers are earnest in seeking Him.

But again, I recognize that there is room for a legitimate difference of opinion, so if you say that I am wrong, I will not argue the matter with you. I just don't want to exclude anyone from heaven on the basis of my own judgment that God may not be excluding Himself.

It's not Biblical, but if you've read C.S. Lewis' tales of Narnia, there is a passage in "The Last Battle" where a young soldier who has all of his life worshipped the evil god Tash meets the good god Aslan and realizes that he has been wrong all along. Aslan advises him that no one can do good works in Tash's name; all good works are in reality done for Aslan. Likewise, no one can truly do evil for Aslan, all evil works are in reality done to honor Tash. And so the young soldier is in fact "saved" by virtue of his character, even though he had ascribed the wrong name to his works all along. I wonder if the real God might not work something like that as well.

Thanks for reminding me why I didn't want to debate with you, WAY to much obfuscation to avoid the point I made.

Nothing in your above post has anything to do my reply and biblical references that refutes your claim of:

" I don't believe that Xianity, as a theology, is exclusionist by nature."

So do I need to repost all the verses where your "god" demands that you kill all "unbelievers"???

 

[Earthling]

no but it seems to work for the majority.

It may be an accurate conclusion but it seems based upon a faulty premise. We can't in all seriousness leave it at that. Besides, the majority are content with bread and circuses, it's always a few in an autonomous collective that has to rock the boat.

From what i have studied the path to wisdom is admitting what we dont know.

That's a good place to start, but it isn't the ultimate goal.

the logic goes... if God created the universe then sent himself to die a horrible death to make himself happy so that we could be let into his heaven then by default that seems to imply that the creator thinks we are important.

That isn't logic that's the Platonic trinity. The meek shall inherit what? Heaven? No. Jesus was a mighty god but he wasn't God almighty. Jehovah created Michael, who was Jesus in his pre-human spirit form.

just to make sure i understand you point correctly.... you believe the bible is not vague. That it's substance can stand scrutiny. I want to make sure i understand so as not to commit a straw man fallacy.

It may appear vague to those who don't know better but it's substance can most certainly stand scrutiny.

So you believe that science claims that the universe came from nothing? You believe the Genisis story is most likely true?

That is a part of what science has claimed. The Big Bang has gone from being millions of miles to the size of the period at the end of this sentence. And then to nothing. The Genesis story is true, but most are familiar with an interpretation that came about in the dark ages. (See Genesis Chapter 1)

I dont understand your point here. You may need to clarify if I am to understand this.

The writers of the Bible weren't monotheistic they were henotheistic. They believed in one God above all others but acknowledged those others. The Bible has Jehovah God appointing Moses as a God to Aaron and Pharaoh. God simply means mighty / venerated. God called the judges of Israel gods, and prophetically referred to Jesus Christ as a god. John 1:1 should read a god rather than God. It's a mistranslation due to bias of the trinity.

You said it's easy to point to specific religions as having exclusive claims of truth. It's easy to make that assumption, yes, but it isn't very thorough.

The fact that you want to dismiss it tells me that it is highly relevant. I point this out because I want to make sure that the readers can pick apart what was given to them by culture and what can be shown to be "true" (in the sense of what they believe) without the culture they were raised in.

I didn't say dismiss it, I said there are alternatives, especially as the world gets smaller and each of us are introduced to other paradigms.

This may be my own fault for expecting that other people have the ability or the desire to critically examine their world views.

Perhaps it's not their world views that they are critically examining. Perhaps it's their cultural or traditional world views they are examining before those views are imposed upon them against their will.

thank you for sharing. I too study the Bible and i come to a completely different view.

You're welcome. Thank you for presenting me with the opportunity, and sharing your different view.

I appreciate your humble view that you could be wrong. That is the first step to wisdom (it helps me anyway) . So if I understand this correctly you believe that if some one studies the Bible critically then one will come to the conclusion that christianity is most likely correct.
Again, I dont want to commit the sin of the straw man.

I don't use the term straw man. It's often an easy way out. If one studies the Bible critically as well as the well documented history of pagan influence that has become apostate, traditional mainstream Christianity and Judaism they will be on their way to accurate knowledge.

 

[George-ananda]

[ QUOTE="loganonekenobi, post: 5918294, member: 57718"]I cant argue with this point of view. Well done sir.[/QUOTE]
First time I ever heard that on this forum. I’m shocked.

 

[Axe Elf]

Nothing in your above post has anything to do my reply

I think maybe you just didn't read it closely and missed it, but I'm ok with that.

 

[Ancient Soul]

I think maybe you just didn't read it closely and missed it, but I'm ok with that.

Even if I read it thru an electron microscope, I could not find something that isn't there. But that's ok, you go avoid facing the tough questions and run off with your tail between your legs.

 

[Axe Elf]

Even if I read it thru an electron microscope, I could not find something that isn't there. But that's ok, you go avoid facing the tough questions and run off with your tail between your legs.

Wow, I'm not sure that some manufactured taunt was appropriate.

I'm a prophet; tough questions are what I do. And I lost my tail several million years of evolution ago. Anything you see hanging there may indeed be impressive; but I assure you, it's not a tail.

 

[Ancient Soul]

Wow, I'm not sure that some manufactured taunt was appropriate.

I'm a prophet; tough questions are what I do.

So if I believe that, what next, you want to sell me an unsinkable submarine with screen doors?

 

[Axe Elf]

So if I believe that, what next, you want to sell me an unsinkable submarine with screen doors?

Nonsequitur.

 

[Shantanu]

This only really matters in how one wants to live their lives as based on what they believe is true. For example I believe that if i get hit by a bus that is going 50mph I will most likely die. It may not be true but im not going to challenge that since I have good faith (and good evidence) that E=MC2.
On the other hand if i believe that demons cause disease instead of germs then that might be a problem for me and any one who depends on me.
I try to live in a fashion that guides my actions based on the most things that are true and the fewest things that are false or cannot be proven to be true.
I dont give Jewelery to the forest fairies in hopes of getting a wish granted because these beings cannot be proven to be true. They could be real but so far no evidence is forthcoming
Still that does leave the possiblity that evidence can be presented that could change my mind.
Since I cant disprove a negative I have little to no hope of changing the mind of a true believer in tinkerbell.

My point was the validity of truth search through truth accommodation.

 

[exchemist]

I do like your interpretation of christianity. unfortunately it does appear to be the the majority view and from what i can study it does not seem to be the theological view of the core faith.

{Jesus said, “I am the truth, the way, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me” (John 14:6) and “For unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins” (John 8:24). The Apostle Peter echoed these words when he said, “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved” (Acts 4:12, KJV).
St. Paul concurred, “There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus …” (1 Timothy 2:5, KJV). In fact, it is the united testimony of the New Testament that no one can know God the Father except through the person of Jesus Christ.}

This is taken from a web site called "bethinking" I could give you many others but the modern consensus is that one must believe in the death and resurection of Jesus in order to be saved from our God given damnation. The bridge must be recognized or no deal.
Again I like your outlook on christianity I just dont think it's true . The idea that Jesus was the only way is backed up by the historical facts as well. In the formation of christianity the majority of the people were pagan. Pagans had no problem with worshiping various gods for various needs. They may have had there favorites but monotheism was just strange to them.
Now comes along the greek writers of the letters that would become the new testaments (well some of them anyway). In the face of this pagan idea they had to convince people to abandon polytheism. After they gained power they soon made worship of other gods illegal. Had they believed the way you do that might not have happened.
As much as i like a faith that can accept other views I dont feel that christianity , theologicly or historically, is one of them.

I take Axe Elf's side on this. I have heard similar sentiments to those he has expressed at various times from Christians, even from some Catholic priests. The tantalising phrase about other sheep not of this fold is one that seems to be quite often quoted. I am fairly sure that Catholic theology at least does not presume to know definitively what God will allow, in terms of salvation. God is God, after all, and we can only hope to have a partial idea of what is in His mind.

 

[exchemist]

Thanks for reminding me why I didn't want to debate with you, WAY to much obfuscation to avoid the point I made.

Nothing in your above post has anything to do my reply and biblical references that refutes your claim of:

" I don't believe that Xianity, as a theology, is exclusionist by nature."

So do I need to repost all the verses where your "god" demands that you kill all "unbelievers"???

Are there any?

Christianity, remember, is founded on the teaching and example of Christ, as recorded in the New Testament which, for Christians, updates and partially replaces the Old. So quoting bloodthirsty verses from the Old Testament proves nothing regarding Christianity.

 

[Looncall]

I do like your interpretation of christianity. unfortunately it does appear to be the the majority view and from what i can study it does not seem to be the theological view of the core faith.

{Jesus said, “I am the truth, the way, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me” (John 14:6) and “For unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins” (John 8:24). The Apostle Peter echoed these words when he said, “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved” (Acts 4:12, KJV).
St. Paul concurred, “There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus …” (1 Timothy 2:5, KJV). In fact, it is the united testimony of the New Testament that no one can know God the Father except through the person of Jesus Christ.}

This is taken from a web site called "bethinking" I could give you many others but the modern consensus is that one must believe in the death and resurection of Jesus in order to be saved from our God given damnation. The bridge must be recognized or no deal.
Again I like your outlook on christianity I just dont think it's true . The idea that Jesus was the only way is backed up by the historical facts as well. In the formation of christianity the majority of the people were pagan. Pagans had no problem with worshiping various gods for various needs. They may have had there favorites but monotheism was just strange to them.
Now comes along the greek writers of the letters that would become the new testaments (well some of them anyway). In the face of this pagan idea they had to convince people to abandon polytheism. After they gained power they soon made worship of other gods illegal. Had they believed the way you do that might not have happened.
As much as i like a faith that can accept other views I dont feel that christianity , theologicly or historically, is one of them.

Sounds like a vicious scam to me. Got any evidence?

 

[Segev Moran]

I understood the rest of your post, but this part had me stumped.

How does a mythology that distorts reality for it's followers, present: "the most elaborated and full image that includes in it every aspect of reality as we know it and beyond."???

You think it distorts reality (as i did in the past) because you don't know anything about it.
It not only connects to our reality, it actually describes it much more clearly than any scientific idea we have (when it comes to human behavior, natural phenomena, social decisions and much more)

 

[Segev Moran]

You got me curious, can you do some copy and paste explanations of "how the spiritual world works"?

That would be a very long copy and pasting, probably in the length of all the posts combined in this site
What would you like to know? any specific question? and i will try and find you an answer (that will most definitely be lacking a lot of information as almost every subject is detailed on thousands of pages).