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ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Reason for religious war

Tends to be of either of these arguments

"Our god is better than your god so you better worship our god or else me and my buddies will massacre you"

"You are worshiping god wrong, you must worship god as we worship god or else me and my buddies will massacre you"

I don't think i have heard of any other reason.


 

questfortruth

Well-Known Member
therefore are outside of the activities of science.
Science does not tell us anything about God,

1. Science does not deal with God, this is the definition of the word Science: Scientists follow closely the methods of Science, the main and most old of which is Methodological Naturalism.

2. If God exists, then He influences nature, at least at the moment of its creation.

3. Science deals with absolutely all nature.

Items 1,2,3 give the conclusion that "there is no God" according to Science.
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
1. Science does not deal with God, this is the definition of the word Science: Scientists follow closely the methods of Science, the main and most old of which is Methodological Naturalism.

2. If God exists, then He influences nature, at least at the moment of its creation.

3. Science deals with absolutely all nature.

Items 1,2,3 give the conclusion that "there is no God" according to Science.
Repeating your text is not engaging in a debate. Your definitions and reasoning have been shown to be faulty by others in this thread as well.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
1. Science does not deal with God, this is the definition of the word Science: Scientists follow closely the methods of Science, the main and most old of which is Methodological Naturalism.

True, though your phrase 'most old' is out of place and confusing needs clarification.

2. If God exists, then He influences nature, at least at the moment of its creation.

True.

3. Science deals with absolutely all nature.

False, science only deals with what is falsifiable based on the 'objective verifiable evidence' concerning our physical existence, and not 'absolutely all nature.' The the existence of other spiritual worlds, God(s), or nature beyond our physical existence is not the realm of science.

Items 1,2,3 give the conclusion that "there is no God" according to Science.

False.

There is nothing in Methodological Naturalism nor science that rejects the existence of God. In fact by the principles of Methodological Naturalism science is neutral to the existence of God one way or the other, and beyond the scope of science.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I argue that Science is interested in all natural things in our Universe. How hard to get it?

This needs clarification, because it depends on what you consider 'all natural things.' Many religions consider other spiritual worlds and God to be natural. Science deals with ONLY 'Natural things of our physical existence,' and does not deal with and is neutral concerning the existence of Gods nor other spiritual worlds beyond our physical existence.
 

questfortruth

Well-Known Member
This needs clarification, because it depends on what you consider 'all natural things.' Many religions consider other spiritual worlds and God to be natural. Science deals with ONLY 'Natural things of our physical existence,' and does not deal with and is neutral concerning the existence of Gods nor other spiritual worlds beyond our physical existence.
You are complicated, look how simple I am:
1. Science is not interested in God.
2. God, if exists, influences the physical world (e.g. walks on water),
3. Science is interested in the physical world.

Conclusion: Science tells, that God does not exist.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
Perhaps you have seen Ben Stein's "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed", there is shown the war between Creationism and Evolution.


Let me find the reason for this war.

1. Science does not deal with God, this is the definition of the word Science: Scientists follow closely the methods of Science, the main and most old of which is Methodological Naturalism.

2. If God exists, then He influences nature, at least at the moment of its creation.

3. Science deals with absolutely all nature.

Items 1,2,3 give the conclusion that "there is no God" according to Science. This means that Science is not right (Science has sinned) before God. Because God knows that God exists.

Here is the proof of the spiritual world, and the essence of Dark Matter and Dark Energy; and by clicking on the author's name, we find other works: proofs of the Riemann Hypothesis and the ABC and Goldbach conjectures: Simulation Hypothesis and Dark Matter, viXra.org e-Print archive, viXra:2103.0133
"For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict." Luke 21:15.

But all the top journals refused to publish any of the manuscripts without explaining journal motives and reasons. Why? Because my name is very well known on Google. I have a lot of religious articles online. Conclusion: I suffered for my faith in Jesus Christ.

What is more important than the proof of the Riemann hypothesis? Faith of the author. Only religiously passive authors are accepted for publication. Only authors who do not offend the devil or his world order are accepted: "I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world." John 17:14.

In centuries past, gender (and skin color) has determined whether the TRUE proof of the Riemann Hypothesis will be published. Now it is the religion: an atheist author or not.
The satan is the evil spirit, thus, satan is the hatred itself. The pure hatred, the absolute evil, without any sign of love: "But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause." John 15:25.


Science requires objective evidence, and that simply is not to be found on this?!
"neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead" Luke 16:31,"When they saw Him, they worshiped Him, but some doubted." Matthew 28:17.

Not everyone is Catholic. Recently the Catholic church (Vatican) moved boy-raping priests so they could rape more little boys, and currently the Vatican is declaring bankruptcy to hide its expensive graven images and billions of dollars of mammon so that it doesn't have to pay reparations to the little boys that it harmed (not to mention sending the souls of priests to hell). The Catholic church leans on families of raped little boys not to alert authorities or let others know about the scandals.

So, perhaps the Catholic church isn't the best source of religious advice. Yet, the pope (and other priests) are (and past ones were) highly educated in divinity or theology.

It has been the considered opinion of a couple of recent popes that DNA is real and that evolution is real. Yet, they claim that God had a hand in creating the DNA system and guiding evolution. Thus, a couple of recent popes believe in methodological naturalism, as well, but they insist that God guides it.

Courts use DNA evidence. It is sufficiently proven and sufficiently accurate, that it cannot be refuted.

DNA clearly proves evolution.

To deny evolution, in the face of DNA evidence, is pure lying. God doesn't like liars.

The COVID virus is mutating, as we speak. Past flu viruses mutated, and that required more vaccines to prevent mutations of the evolving viruses. Mutation is evolution. So, evolution is all around us, and vastly affecting our lives.

Theists tell lies about Global Warming, and their politicians get their lawyers to rewrite national environmental reports (as happened during the W. Bush administration, resulting in the resignation of the top woman in the government's environmental study). God doesn't like lies. God doesn't like his environment getting ruined (even if people will rapture to heaven leaving behind a toxic cess pool where once God's glorious environment once stood).

Theists can still teach religion in churches. Some are open only on Sunday, but they can open any day, and hold classes after schools teach science. Kids can still pray to God in school, if they pray silently to themselves. There is no need to lead school prayer and force different religions to worship as we do (there is freedom of religion in America).

Science, right now, is in the process of once again saving us. They developed vaccines.

You wrote: "2. If God exists, then He influences nature, at least at the moment of its creation." In your mind God created life. But that is actually two beliefs. It is the belief in God (that God exists), and it is the belief that God created life (or nature). Couldn't God exist and have had nothing at all to do with the creation of life (or nature)?

You assert that "God knows that God exists." In your mind, God is all knowing. What if God is not all knowing? What if God doesn't even know that God exists? Self-awareness is a feature of sentient life, who who says that God is sentient?

You wrote: "Items 1,2,3 give the conclusion that "there is no God" according to Science." Science doesn't assert that there is no God. Science won't accept the existence of God (or Fred Flintstone, or the tooth fairy, or Santa Claus) without proof. The fact that they don't accept doesn't mean that they proved non-existence. The fact that they don't accept doesn't mean that they are trying to assert that God doesn't exist. Science is not the enemy of religion. Science merely tries to prove the provable. You leapt to the conclusion that science asserts that there is no God, and science quite definitely does not make that assertion. Many well known scientists have been theists. Enrico Fermi believed that it was the hand of God that moved subatomic particles.

You assert that "proof of the spiritual world, and the essence of Dark Matter and Dark Energy." In other words, if science is still studying a phenomena, you leap to the conclusion that science doesn't know everything, therefore God exists. Of course science doesn't know everything. That's why scientists still study science. That's why probes are still sent to Mars. That's why bio labs still study biology. Though science doesn't yet have all of the answers, you can see, in the past 300 years, that science has made great strides. Internet phones were not possible 300 years ago. Nor were airplanes. Does this mean that science is wrong because it doesn't currently have all of the answers? I think not. . . rather, it means that science is very quickly catching up and learning answers. . . answers that can be applied to every day living (like curing COVID, or giving us high definition TV).

The pope didn't believe that God would protect the Vatican, so the pope cut off travel to the Vatican. So, even the pope is showing lack of faith.

You assert that: top journals refused to publish any of the manuscripts without explaining journal motives and reasons. Why? Because my name is very well known on Google. I don't want to insult you, but your logic is skewed, and you seem to take rejection as a personal attack. They are not out to get you personally. Your wild leaps of logic are not consistent with scientific procedures. For example, you asserted that science doesn't know everything, therefore God must exist. You try to make it look scientific, by throwing in terms (like Goldbach Conjecture), but those terms have nothing to do with proving your assertions.

You assert that "satan is the hatred itself" and you quote John "they hate me without cause." Prestigious journals don't publish a lot of works by legitimate scientists (those who have worked for a decade in college to get their degrees, and those who worked in the field of science for more decades). You are not published because Satan is out to get you. People are not out to get you or block you from getting published because they hate you. Its just that your writing shows no background in science. It shows no proof that others would accept as proof. Though you leap to wild conclusions about proving God through an absence of knowledge, and you throw in a few scientific term to baffle non-scientists, real scientists see right through your rhetoric and refuse to respect it.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Let me find the reason for this war.

1. Science does not deal with God, this is the definition of the word Science: Scientists follow closely the methods of Science, the main and most old of which is Methodological Naturalism.

2. If God exists, then He influences nature, at least at the moment of its creation.

3. Science deals with absolutely all nature: Science is interested in all natural things in our Universe.

Items 1,2,3 give the conclusion that "there is no God" according to Science. This means that Science is not right (Science has sinned) before God. Because God knows that God exists.
Wait. If science does not deal with God, and science deals with nature only (points 1 and 3), then your conclusion that science gives the conclusion that "there is no God" is 100% false. End of debate.

The "war" is purely in the imagination of Creationists who reject science and refuse to change how they think about God. Science makes no pronouncements, or statements of any kind about God. Science is not at war with faith. It's purely the weak-faithed Creationists who are made uncomfortable by facts confronting their beliefs.

Not all believers are so inflicted by fear this way, and their faith is able to embrace the facts that the light of science reveals. Their faith allows for their ideas about the Divine, to be modified. Creationists cannot claim the same, mistaking refusal to change how one thinks, as the meaning of faith. They are wrong scientifically, and wrong religiously as well.
 
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Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
But all the top journals refused to publish any of the manuscripts without explaining journal motives and reasons. Why? Because my name is very well known on Google.
Or perhaps it's what you WRITE in your articles, or don't you consider that? I haven't seen your articles, but I have seen what you write here, and none of it would ever be considered even for a moment in a genuine science publication.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
But all the top journals refused to publish any of the manuscripts without explaining journal motives and reasons. Why? Because my name is very well known on Google.

Wrong. I assure you that they refuse to publish your material because it isn't high enough quality to publish. Your presence on Google and religious views are irrelevant.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Perhaps you have seen Ben Stein's "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed", there is shown the war between Creationism and Evolution.
If there is a war, it's decidedly one-sided. It's the evangelical community that's on the attack -- and the defensive.

Science largely ignores these religious claims, aside from an occasional rebuttal of a particularly annoying attack. Alas, these have been largely ineffectual. The evangelicals don't have the intellectual armamentarium to understand or respond to these rebuttals. Their response is usually a reïteration of their previous criticism.

"Expelled" is a pseudoscientific, creationist screed that's long ago been debunked, both factually and methodologically.
Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed - Wikipedia
Let me find the reason for this war.
1. Science does not deal with God, this is the definition of the word Science: Scientists follow closely the methods of Science, the main and most old of which is Methodological Naturalism.
No. The definition of science is "knowledge." There's nothing of god in it.
You seem to think science treats "goddidit' as a competing hypothesis and as an idea to be investigated. It does not. The subject never comes up, any more than the meteorological influence of Thor.

Science follows facts. It analyses data. As soon as any god-related facts or data is uncovered, science will attend to it.
2. If God exists, then He influences nature, at least at the moment of its creation.
3. Science deals with absolutely all nature: Science is interested in all natural things in our Universe.
And, as I mentioned above, as soon as any evidence of divine intervention is discovered, science will jump on it like a terrier on a rat.
Items 1,2,3 give the conclusion that "there is no God" according to Science. This means that Science is not right (Science has sinned) before God. Because God knows that God exists.
No! Science concludes nothing of the sort. It doesn't even consider the question. The subject never comes up.

There is no war. Science is not concerned with refuting God. It may respond to attacks from the religious, but these are refutations of the facts, logic or methodology of the attacks, not scientific denials of God..
 

questfortruth

Well-Known Member
Wrong. I assure you that they refuse to publish your material because it isn't high enough quality to publish. Your presence on Google and religious views are irrelevant.

Did not Moses give you the law, yet none of you keeps the law? Why do you seek to kill Me?” The people answered and said, “You have a demon. Who is seeking to kill You?”
John 7:19-20.
 

questfortruth

Well-Known Member
Or perhaps it's what you WRITE in your articles, or don't you consider that? I haven't seen your articles, but I have seen what you write here, and none of it would ever be considered even for a moment in a genuine science publication.
Would I have better chances in life, if I would accept the Theory of Evolution and atheism?
 

questfortruth

Well-Known Member
People are not out to get you or block you from getting published because they hate you. Its just that your writing shows no background in science.

Isn’t this the carpenter? Isn’t this Mary’s son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren’t his sisters here with us?” And they took offense at him. Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own town, among his relatives and in his own home.”
Mark 6:3-4.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
It is better than science, it is - Absolute Truth. Science tells: there is no God (look above in the beginning of the thread).
Wrong.

Science does not deal with God because God cannot be proven or disproven.

There is no war. There are many scientists who believe in God and are even Christians.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Would I have better chances in life, if I would accept the Theory of Evolution and atheism?
Atheism and evolution are two separate things. There are many theists including Christians who accept evolution.

In theistic terms, God created the universe and the laws of the universe. Evolution is part of that. It's called "theistic evolution".
 

questfortruth

Well-Known Member
"Expelled" is a pseudoscientific, creationist screed that's long ago been debunked, both factually and methodologically.
Was the author Ben Stein disciplined for that assault?
If yes, then I am adding him to the list of holy martyrs, there is Kent Hovind.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead" Luke 16:31,"When they saw Him, they worshiped Him, but some doubted." Matthew 28:17.
Disparaging the unfaithful doesn't advance your hypothesis.
I argue that Science is interested in all natural things in our Universe. How hard to get it?
And I say as soon as there's any evidence of divine influence in some natural process, science will jump on it.

Take dark matter, for example: It's invisible. It was long overlooked. But when an inexplicable, anti-intuitive phenomenon appeared -- accelerating expansion -- science began to investigate, and, lo: a gravitational effect was found with no visible mass to account for it. Here was empirical evidence of invisible mass, and science took immediate notice. Now, this 'dark matter" hypothesis is being actively investigated.

Likewise, as soon as evidence of God emerges, science will investigate. Thus far, none has.
You are complicated, look how simple I am:
1. Science is not interested in God.
2. God, if exists, influences the physical world (e.g. walks on water),
3. Science is interested in the physical world.

Conclusion: Science tells, that God does not exist.
Your conclusion doesn't follow.
Science makes no god-claims. God never comes up.
 
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