Questions that believers cannot answer

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I don't know where you're getting any of this from. My point is that we humans are so lacking in any understanding of existence that we have no business passing moral judgments on it in the first place. It's like passing moral judgment on the wind. Or on infinity. And why you're trying to connect faith to this observation escapes me.

I understood you to be arguing that one shouldn't pass moral judgment on a god who allows what appears to be gratuitous suffering because human beings don't know enough to make such judgments, and that they should accept that a good god might exist anyway with a higher morality, and get out of the moral judgment business when it comes to gods.

And no, it's not like passing moral judgment on the wind on infinity. We do not pass moral judgements on inanimate object or mathematical abstractions. I'm passing moral judgment on the choices of an alleged deity.

What does faith have to do with it? There is no way that a critical thinker can believe that the suffering in the world was the work of a good god with a transcendent morality that he cannot understand without faith. He's an empiricist.

The whole, "It's supernatural, so stop trying to find it or understand it and just believe it anyway" argument is wasted on the empiricist. And it's especially dangerous in moral issues, where this kind of thinking leads to divine command theory and good people doing bad because they believe it is a god's will even if the idea seems repugnant to them. If God killed all of the firstborn, it must be moral, meaning it would have been immoral not to do that. You've seen the Weinberg quote on that, right?

• "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. For good people to do evil things, it takes religion." - Nobelist Steven Weinberg

So, no, I'm not going to try to find ways to see gratuitous suffering as good, or bad luck as a learning lesson from a loving god.

 

[ChristineM]

That's just why my gods aren't all loving and all-just

I didn't know you were a god of Abraham guy

 

[PureX]

I understood you to be arguing that one shouldn't pass moral judgment on a god who allows what appears to be gratuitous suffering because human beings don't know enough to make such judgments, and that they should accept that a good god might exist anyway with a higher morality, and get out of the moral judgment business when it comes to gods.

The premise is that "God is bad because suffering is bad and God created a universe that allows suffering". But the fact is that we know absolutely nothing of God and almost nothing of the universe. So thinking we are in any position to pass judgment on these because we "suffer" is just blinding hubris.

And no, it's not like passing moral judgment on the wind on infinity. We do not pass moral judgements on inanimate object or mathematical abstractions. I'm passing moral judgment on the choices of an alleged deity.

You don't see the idiocy of passing judgments on an "alleged deity"?

What does faith have to do with it? There is no way that a critical thinker can believe that the suffering in the world was the work of a good god with a transcendent morality that he cannot understand without faith. He's an empiricist.

Faith is not 'believing in' irrational presumptions. That's something else. I'd call it hubris.

The whole, "It's supernatural, so stop trying to find it or understand it and just believe it anyway" argument is wasted on the empiricist.

Well, having no knowledge of the limitations of the "natural realm", it would be difficult to know when or whether something became "supernatural". But I guess the empiricist can't quite get that far in his reasoning.

 

[The Hammer]

I didn't know you were a god of Abraham guy

I'm certainly not. I just meant most pre-christian deities can't be boxed into "all" categories. Accept maybe Wodan, All-Father) and all that.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Questions that believers cannot answer…. without resorting to a plethora of religious apologetics.
If God is loving, why did God ‘intentionally’ create a world that He knew would engender so much human and animal suffering? Isaiah 45:7 ESV
I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the Lord, who does all these things.
I rest my case.

Yes, I see you rested your case in that you show you don't know what the Bible teaches.
In the Bible 'calamity' is Not always associated with wrong doing.
For the sake of the righteous God used 'calamity' against the wicked, for example the Flood of Noah's day.
At Jesus' coming Glory Time there will be 'calamity' against the wicked - Matthew 25:31-34.
The wicked 'destroyed forever' - Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-15; Psalms 37:38; Psalms 92:7.
We all have the free-will choice to ' repent ' so as Not to ' perish ' (<- meaning be destroyed ) - 2 Peter 3:9
Satan and Adam (aka angels and humans) were created with free-will choices - James 1:13-15.

Please tell us if everyone on Earth lived by God's Golden Rule how much suffering would there be - *Leviticus 19:18
* So, it is humans disobeying God's Golden Rule that has caused much suffering.
Mankind's history shows man can't direct his step and that is why God will have Jesus step in to come! - Rev. 22:20
Come and bring ' healing ' to earth's nations - Revelation 22:2.
Earth and its people will be happy and healthy as described in Isaiah 35th chapter.
Whether you want to know what the Bible really teaches is up to you, but what you were taught is out of line with Scripture.
Those who want to live by the Golden Rule and Jesus' New commandment -John 13:34-35 can Enjoy Life forever !

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

I believe that a smart person does not ask why God does something but instead asks how he can please God and follow His instructions.

 

[The Hammer]

I understood you to be arguing that one shouldn't pass moral judgment on a god who allows what appears to be gratuitous suffering because human beings don't know enough to make such judgments, and that they should accept that a good god might exist anyway with a higher morality, and get out of the moral judgment business when it comes to gods

This sounds appropriate to me. Who is to say what the morality of the Gods actually entails, and whether we are superior or lesser thereof?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Isaiah 45:7 ESV
I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the Lord, who does all these things.

What I find particularly interesting are the three verbs employed: יָצַר (form or fashion), עָשָׂה (make), and בָּרָא (create). The first two are somewhat similar in that one forms, fashions, or makes using that which already exists. Creation is a different thing entirely.

I read 45:7 as saying something akin to ...

Having created darkness, I fashion light. Having created calamity/chaos, I fashion completeness/soundness.
​

or ...

I created darkness, calamity, and chaos that I might fashion light, completeness, and soundness,​

I rest my case.

An amazing victory indeed!

 

[Suave]

My understanding....
Without some form of suffering and pain, how would we be able to grow spiritually ? The suffering is there to make us stronger when we realize what causes us to feel it as suffering.

When it comes to why God created a place for human to feel suffering, I believe we have been spiritual beings without a physical body before we was humans. And this physical body was created so we would feel pain and agony due to our past sin when we fall from closeness to God.
The further away from God, the more dense our existence become. (Physical body)

Only my thoughts.

I have often considered the notion of us being the simulated ancestors programmed by a future post-human generation,

"Some physicists have proposed a method for testing if we are in a numerical simulated cubic space-time lattice Matrix or simulated universe with an underlying grid.
[1210.1847] Constraints on the Universe as a Numerical Simulation

Based on the assumption that there'd be finite computational resources, a simulated universe would be performed by dividing up the space-time continuum into individually separate and distinctive points. Analogous to mini-simulations that lattice-gauge theorists conduct to construct nuclei based on Quantum Chromodynamics, observable effects of a grid-like space-time have been studied from these computer simulations which use a 3-D grid to model how elementary particles move and collide with each other. Anomalies found in these simulations suggest that if we are in a simulation universe with an underlying grid, then there'd be various amounts of high energy cosmic rays coming at us from each direction; but if space is continuous, then there'd be high energy cosmic rays coming at us equally from every direction.

High Energy Physics - Phenomenology
Constraints on the Universe as a Numerical Simulation
Silas R. Beane, Zohreh Davoudi, Martin J. Savage
(Submitted on 4 Oct 2012 (v1), last revised 9 Nov 2012 (this version, v2))

An anisotropic distribution of ultra-high-energy cosmic rays would be consistent with the simulation hypothesis,

In the study, published September 22,2017 in the journal Science, the researchers gathered over ten years of data taken with the Pierre Auger Observatory to determine whether high-energy cosmic rays were hitting Earth equally from all directions. They are not!

The proof is out there: A Matrix based structured simulated origin for cosmic rays!"

What makes humans so special? | Page 2 | Religious Forums

 

[robocop (actually)]

If God is loving, why did God ‘intentionally’ create a world that He knew would engender so much human and animal suffering?

If God is just, why did God create a world in which He knew some people would suffer so much more than others, many people hardly suffering at all? How is that fair?

If parents are loving, why would they birth their children 'intentionally' into a world that they knew would engender so much human suffering?

If parents are just, why would they birth children knowing some people would suffer so much more than others, many people hardly suffering at all? Why have a child then?

 

[sun rise]

If God is loving, why did God ‘intentionally’ create a world that He knew would engender so much human and animal suffering?

I remember answering this very question before. But to answer it without apologetics (reasoned argument) is impossible in words that necessarily have reason as part of the text. Rather than a reasoned argument, there's symbolic teaching stories from Rumi (and others). One is the "Chickpea and the Cook" This version is translated by Coleman Barks:

A chickpea leaps almost over the rim of the pot
where it’s being boiled.

‘Why are you doing this to me?’

The cook knocks him down with the ladle.

‘Don’t you try to jump out.
You think I’m torturing you.
I’m giving you flavor,
so you can mix with spices and rice
and be the lovely vitality of a human being.

Remember when you drank rain in the garden.
That was for this.’

Grace first. Sexual pleasure,
then a boiling new life begins,
and the Friend has something good to eat.

Eventually the chickpea will say to the cook,
‘Boil me some more.
Hit me with the skimming spoon.
I can’t do this by myself.

I’m like an elephant that dreams of gardens
back in Hindustan and doesn’t pay attention
to his driver. You’re my cook, my driver,
my way into existence. I love your cooking.’

The cook says,
‘I was once like you,
fresh from the ground. Then I boiled in time,
and boiled in the body, two fierce boilings.

My animal soul grew powerful.
I controlled it with practices,
and boiled some more, and boiled
once beyond that,
and became your teacher.’

 

[Twilight Hue]

Believing in God was undoubtedly a mental crutch for me. I know now that it was foolish of me to sustain my faith and hope in God even after experiencing severe abuse growing up and having PTSD for years as a result of the abuse and trauma I endured as a child.

I've heard the experience of deconverting from Christianity compared to swallowing the red pill and waking up to reality rather than swallowing the blue pill and remaining perfectly content in a fantasy. I'm not a fan of the Matrix, but this analogy makes sense to me.

Belief has its benefits, like a belief in a deity, but too much reliance on belief might prove detrimental if expectations are not met. I found that out among my Christian peers at that point in time.

Its one of the reasons why i approached a boots on the ground mentality with a lowered sense of expectations.
.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Idk. I've also had some past life stuff come up. So what I was before could get complicated.

Either way, we don't know. And we won't know until the actual time of our passing arises.

I thought about those things as well, but the problem is one is never going to be certain if that is the case or just wishful musings.

I figured that's my problem with this particular life. Not the next one forthcoming. :0]

 

[Wildswanderer]

The question isn't why there's suffering in the world if God exists... the question is why there's any good thing if he doesn't.

 

[The Hammer]

I thought about those things as well, but the problem is one is never going to be certain if that is the case or just wishful musings.

I figured that's my problem with this particular life. Not the next one forthcoming. :0]

True. Which is why I tend to just err on the reincarnation side of the afterlife spectrum.

 

[Twilight Hue]

True. Which is why I tend to just err on the reincarnation side of the afterlife spectrum.

It's the most plausible imv. I'm privy to rebirth however, because I don't believe that a transitory soul fits in with the natural order, and the ebb and tide of forms alongside the consistent state of change that makes all things dynamic in nature.

 

[Clara Tea]

Questions that believers cannot answer…. without resorting to a plethora of religious apologetics.

If God is loving, why did God ‘intentionally’ create a world that He knew would engender so much human and animal suffering?

If God is just, why did God create a world in which He knew some people would suffer so much more than others, many people hardly suffering at all? How is that fair?

I am not referring to suffering caused by our own choices we make that cause us to suffer, I am talking about suffering as the result of fate and predestination.

To clarify, I believe that some things that happen to us are subject to human free will and some things are not, because they were predestined by God and we have no control over them. That is called fate.

All things that are not chosen by virtue of our own free are beyond our control and I believe they are predestined by God. God is responsible for both the good and the bad things that happen to us, if those things were predestined.

“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 248

Man is compelled to endure the bad things that happen because God set it up that way since we live in a material world where some of the Bad things happen are beyond our control. Some of these Bad things are caused by the free will decisions of other people that affect us and some of them are simply accidents, misfortunes and diseases. These are our fate, for which God is responsible.

Believers only want to look at the good things and thank God for those things, they do not want to look at the bad things for which God is responsible. Instead, they try to say that all the bad things are really good because suffering is good, and God can never be responsible for anything bad. This is a religious apologetic and Imo it is an attempt to gloss over all the suffering in the world and say God is not responsible for it.

It would be unfair to blame man for things that are beyond his control so who is responsible for all the suffering in the world that is not caused by man? Logically speaking, if God is responsible for 'everything' then God is responsible for 'both' the good and bad things that happen to us.

Isaiah 45:7 ESV
I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the Lord, who does all these things.

I rest my case.

Trailblazer: "why did God create a world in which He knew some people would suffer so much more than others, many people hardly suffering at all? How is that fair?"

Jews were:

1. starved to stick figures,

2. had their skin peeled off without anesthetics, live to make lamp shades

3. had their possessions taken

4. raped (males and females raped by males)

5. stripped naked in front of each other, in front of guards, in front of onlookers (including press)

6. had their gold fillings knocked out

7. their possessions taken

8. enslaved to work for the Nazi regime

And the "Master Race" that that enslaved them enjoyed their stolen loot that helped their economy, and, we know, today, after all these years have passed, that many of the most heinous Nazis (including Doctor Mengele) fled to South America. They had faked their deaths. I assume that Hitler had faked his death as well. You will notice that a lot of blonde, blue eyed beauty queens are now emerging from South America but Wikipedia has no info (none at all) on their family backgrounds. Wiki has info about virtually everybody. . . but not them. Locals were happy to have the Nazis and their looted plunder (rare art stolen from France and other peaceful countries that they conquered and enslaved.

Jews had been the brunt of bigotry for centuries before the Nazis. They were deprived of jobs, and money lending was one of the few professions that they were allowed to pursue.

How can God consider the Jews to be his chosen ones, then do that to them? Couldn't God choose someone else for a change?

Frankly, I think that any "teacher" who tests his "students" so severely, and so constantly, isn't much of a teacher at all. Frankly, I am done with the tests. Take me as I am or leave me alone. I don't need to learn more. I don't need to have my metal tested.

How can God know the future and not know how we will react to severe stress?

 

[Clara Tea]

True. Which is why I tend to just err on the reincarnation side of the afterlife spectrum.

When someone dies, a carnation is put in their lapel.

If the carnation blooms again, they wake up and they are fine (re-carnation).

 

[Clara Tea]

I understood you to be arguing that one shouldn't pass moral judgment on a god who allows what appears to be gratuitous suffering because human beings don't know enough to make such judgments, and that they should accept that a good god might exist anyway with a higher morality, and get out of the moral judgment business when it comes to gods.

And no, it's not like passing moral judgment on the wind on infinity. We do not pass moral judgements on inanimate object or mathematical abstractions. I'm passing moral judgment on the choices of an alleged deity.

What does faith have to do with it? There is no way that a critical thinker can believe that the suffering in the world was the work of a good god with a transcendent morality that he cannot understand without faith. He's an empiricist.

The whole, "It's supernatural, so stop trying to find it or understand it and just believe it anyway" argument is wasted on the empiricist. And it's especially dangerous in moral issues, where this kind of thinking leads to divine command theory and good people doing bad because they believe it is a god's will even if the idea seems repugnant to them. If God killed all of the firstborn, it must be moral, meaning it would have been immoral not to do that. You've seen the Weinberg quote on that, right?

• "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. For good people to do evil things, it takes religion." - Nobelist Steven Weinberg

So, no, I'm not going to try to find ways to see gratuitous suffering as good, or bad luck as a learning lesson from a loving god.

The bible says "judge not lest ye be judged."

But, if we can't judge Satan, we might make the mistake of following him.

If we lack the capacity to judge God (perhaps because God is so magnificent that we cannot grasp Him), then we lack the capacity to judge anyone or anything. We must be able to judge right from wrong, or risk being wrong.

I think that it is rather easy to judge God by His actions. Could it be that God sees the future, so knows that seemingly bad decisions might turn out to be the best decisions?

 

[The Hammer]

When someone dies, a carnation is put in their lapel.

If the carnation blooms again, they wake up and they are fine (re-carnation).

That's pretty creative