Questions that believers cannot answer

[Spirit of Light]

I have often considered the notion of us being the simulated ancestors programmed by a future post-human generation,

"Some physicists have proposed a method for testing if we are in a numerical simulated cubic space-time lattice Matrix or simulated universe with an underlying grid.
[1210.1847] Constraints on the Universe as a Numerical Simulation

Based on the assumption that there'd be finite computational resources, a simulated universe would be performed by dividing up the space-time continuum into individually separate and distinctive points. Analogous to mini-simulations that lattice-gauge theorists conduct to construct nuclei based on Quantum Chromodynamics, observable effects of a grid-like space-time have been studied from these computer simulations which use a 3-D grid to model how elementary particles move and collide with each other. Anomalies found in these simulations suggest that if we are in a simulation universe with an underlying grid, then there'd be various amounts of high energy cosmic rays coming at us from each direction; but if space is continuous, then there'd be high energy cosmic rays coming at us equally from every direction.

High Energy Physics - Phenomenology
Constraints on the Universe as a Numerical Simulation
Silas R. Beane, Zohreh Davoudi, Martin J. Savage
(Submitted on 4 Oct 2012 (v1), last revised 9 Nov 2012 (this version, v2))

An anisotropic distribution of ultra-high-energy cosmic rays would be consistent with the simulation hypothesis,

In the study, published September 22,2017 in the journal Science, the researchers gathered over ten years of data taken with the Pierre Auger Observatory to determine whether high-energy cosmic rays were hitting Earth equally from all directions. They are not!

The proof is out there: A Matrix based structured simulated origin for cosmic rays!"

What makes humans so special? | Page 2 | Religious Forums

Most of what you speak about in your reply is something I don't understand at all, nor do i believe in Simulation theory.

 

[nPeace]

Questions that believers cannot answer…. without resorting to a plethora of religious apologetics.

Since this is a question to believers, it would logically follow, it has to be a question from an unbeliever.
An unbelieving Bahai. What next?

If God is loving, why did God ‘intentionally’ create a world that He knew would engender so much human and animal suffering?

God is loving.
God did not create the world... or did you mean the earth?
God did not create a world that He knew would engender so much human and animal suffering.

The one asking the question wrongly assumes that God knew there would be suffering when he created mankind.
He didn't.

It would be very stupid for God to know this, and then tell Adam that he should not eat from the tree, or he would die. Then turn around and ask Adam what he had done.
An 8 year old didn't write the Bible.

Speaking of God's love though.
That is evident from God, 1) giving mankind the gift of life, and 2) opening to them the opportunity to enjoy the real life - everlasting life..

Suppose though, we did go with the wrong assumption in the OP. Let's assume God knew before creating mankind, that they would suffer greatly.
That would not render his love void, or prove him to be unloving. Why?

He gave mankind life, and he opened the way or made provisions for mankind - even those who would suffer for a short while - to enjoy living forever.
That's love.

The apostle Paul expressed it this way.
(Romans 8:18-21) 18 Consequently I reckon that the sufferings of the present season do not amount to anything in comparison with the glory that is going to be revealed in us. 19 For the eager expectation of the creation is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will but through him that subjected it, on the basis of hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God.

Imagine a man who would rather take a grain of sand from the beach. Take it to his home, and sit and watch it for hours every day, rather than travel around the earth, or explore the universe.

That's the man that focusses on brief moments of suffering, which amounts to nothing - not anything / zero / zilch - compared to enjoying life forever.

Refusing to give mankind life because he saw that they would go through a period of distress, would not show God to be the almighty, but weak. Since the message he would be sending is 1) he is limited by fear; 2) he is powerless to undo any damage done; 3) his will / desire / purpose can be stopped or prevented.
God is not limited by anything. Nothing will stop him from carrying out his will, and purpose.

Question answered logically, and Biblically.
Any other questions?

If God is just, why did God create a world in which He knew some people would suffer so much more than others, many people hardly suffering at all? How is that fair?

Answered above. However...
It would be fair, in that all - those who suffer greatly, and those who suffer little - will, because of God's love, have the prospect of living a zillion years... with zero suffering.

What's 100 years compared to a zillion? Nothing.

I am not referring to suffering caused by our own choices we make that cause us to suffer, I am talking about suffering as the result of fate and predestination.

Yes, you assume Adam and Eve were predestined to do disobey God, but that assumption does not agree with scripture, at all.

To clarify, I believe that some things that happen to us are subject to human free will and some things are not, because they were predestined by God and we have no control over them. That is called fate.

Predestination of suffering by God, is a false doctrine.
It's not Biblical.

All things that are not chosen by virtue of our own free are beyond our control and I believe they are predestined by God. God is responsible for both the good and the bad things that happen to us, if those things were predestined.

This is false.

“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 248

This is partly true, but not entirely.
Man is responsible for sickness and death, decline in power, injuries, and sometimes "misfortune".

Some men die, get sick, or suffer injury because of their own actions, or the actions of other men.

Man is compelled to endure the bad things that happen because God set it up that way since we live in a material world where some of the Bad things happen are beyond our control. Some of these Bad things are caused by the free will decisions of other people that affect us and some of them are simply accidents, misfortunes and diseases. These are our fate, for which God is responsible.

No. God did not set it up for Adam to sin. That's not Biblical, so I don't know where persons get that idea.

Believers only want to look at the good things and thank God for those things, they do not want to look at the bad things for which God is responsible. Instead, they try to say that all the bad things are really good because suffering is good, and God can never be responsible for anything bad. This is a religious apologetic and Imo it is an attempt to gloss over all the suffering in the world and say God is not responsible for it.

Some people, want to claim God is responsible for all bad things without any supporting scriptures. This is the unbeliever's idea - some, a mistaken idea; some, a deliberate false idea.

It would be unfair to blame man for things that are beyond his control so who is responsible for all the suffering in the world that is not caused by man?

Man. Namely Adam.

Logically speaking, if God is responsible for 'everything' then God is responsible for 'both' the good and bad things that happen to us.

True. However, God is not responsible for everything.
The Bible says for example
(Titus 1:2) . . .God, who cannot lie. . .
(Numbers 23:19) God is not a mere man who tells lies. . .
(Romans 3:4) . . .let God be found true, even if every man be found a liar. . .

If God is responsible for everything, he is responsible for lies. Since God is not responsible for lies, God is not responsible for everything.
Who is?
(John 8:44) . . .When [the Devil] speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie.

Isaiah 45:7 ESV
I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the Lord, who does all these things.

I rest my case.

Good. No need to keep trying to raise a dead case that has been put to "rest" already. After all, you aren't the Messiah.

The scripture you quoted above has an interpretation. Yes?
Interestingly, in this particular case, Trailblazer doesn't have an interpretation? Trailblazer? Noooo. Surely she hasn't been replaced by a clone.
Whatever happened to, 'I have a different interpretation.'

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm not sure I understand... how exactly do you want this to be answered?

However you want to answer it, if you have an answer.

 

[rational experiences]

Basic you are just a human on earth telling just human only stories.

As just human consciousness.

You see...observe.

You say some humans use evil words evil explanations. Human.

You state those types of evil human thinkers hurt us with evil humans built themselves machines versus natural cold held anything.

As any type of anything exists by being held and because cooled exists.

Legal said held is holy highest. No other term allowed.

Those other human thinkers think about forced change and burning.

You know burning above is held high above us. You teach clouds protected human life on the ground.

Pretty basic human teaching.

Nowhere is any God story existing.

As it was humans who chose the stories. Talking about it as evil.

So humans said don't think about it. Tell stories about it. Believe in it or theory about it. As it was proven evil thinking.

Pretty basic humans had to choose state apply rational terms. Legal.

Don't lie it says as humans lie.

No man is God we said.

Humans life natural can be hurt by reactive planetary causes. Hence to idealise it for machines was proven evil.

Pretty basic don't lie anymore.

Legal never stopped lying however.

 

[Trailblazer]

So by what logic or reasoning are we presuming to know that existence should not involve suffering? I mean, what IS suffering, even, apart from our own preference to avoid it?

I did not claim that there should be no suffering in the world.
That is not what this thread is about.

None of this is about what 'should be.'
It is about the claims of religious people, that God is loving and just.
If God is a, then why c?
If God is b, then why d?

As I said, there are no answers that does not involve some kind of religious apologetic and just as I suspected that is all I have seen so far.

What is suffering? Just ask someone who is suffering and they will tell you.
Human suffering has nothing to so with avoidance, it simply exists.
Judging people who are suffering is cruel and insensitive and lacks compassion.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why indeed, it's as though there were no god and things just happen

That certainly makes more logical sense than the claims of the religious, that God is loving and just.

 

[firedragon]

Questions that believers cannot answer…. without resorting to a plethora of religious apologetics.

If God is loving, why did God ‘intentionally’ create a world that He knew would engender so much human and animal suffering?

If God is just, why did God create a world in which He knew some people would suffer so much more than others, many people hardly suffering at all? How is that fair?

I am not referring to suffering caused by our own choices we make that cause us to suffer, I am talking about suffering as the result of fate and predestination.

To clarify, I believe that some things that happen to us are subject to human free will and some things are not, because they were predestined by God and we have no control over them. That is called fate.

All things that are not chosen by virtue of our own free are beyond our control and I believe they are predestined by God. God is responsible for both the good and the bad things that happen to us, if those things were predestined.

“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 248

Man is compelled to endure the bad things that happen because God set it up that way since we live in a material world where some of the Bad things happen are beyond our control. Some of these Bad things are caused by the free will decisions of other people that affect us and some of them are simply accidents, misfortunes and diseases. These are our fate, for which God is responsible.

Believers only want to look at the good things and thank God for those things, they do not want to look at the bad things for which God is responsible. Instead, they try to say that all the bad things are really good because suffering is good, and God can never be responsible for anything bad. This is a religious apologetic and Imo it is an attempt to gloss over all the suffering in the world and say God is not responsible for it.

It would be unfair to blame man for things that are beyond his control so who is responsible for all the suffering in the world that is not caused by man? Logically speaking, if God is responsible for 'everything' then God is responsible for 'both' the good and bad things that happen to us.

Isaiah 45:7 ESV
I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the Lord, who does all these things.

I rest my case.

Suffering exists in this life. So, what's your ultimate point? God is evil? There are some who believe God exists, but is evil or God can be evil. It's called Dystheism.

 

[Trailblazer]

We only gain muscle by exercise. Life is difficult on purpose. Why?? God wants us to learn and grow.
We accept pain for a needed surgery. We accept that staying alive means we get old. We can also accept that life is difficult and that it’s okay.

As I said in the OP, Questions that believers cannot answer…. without resorting to a plethora of religious apologetics.

I agree that suffering is necessary to learn and grow spiritually, but that is not what this thread is about. It is about whether God is loving and just given the way God created this world.

 

[Trailblazer]

We accept pain for a needed surgery. We accept that staying alive means we get old. We can also accept that life is difficult and that it’s okay.

We have no choice but to accept these things given how God created this hellhole which is a storehouse of suffering. Such a God cannot be loving or just, except in the eyes of the brainwashed believers.

Imo.

 

[Trailblazer]

That you're currently aware of.

I've encountered disembodied spirits that seem to suggest otherwise.

But who knows, maybe I'm just nuts.

No, you are not nuts, you are right.

 

[Trailblazer]

Prefer to look at it as if you don't understand pain, or loss, how can understand the importance of pleasure, and gain?

That's true, but for some people there is no pleasure or gain to compare to the pain and loss.

 

[Trailblazer]

I didn't know you were a god of Abraham guy

He's not, but he is a gods guy.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, I see you rested your case in that you show you don't know what the Bible teaches.
In the Bible 'calamity' is Not always associated with wrong doing.
For the sake of the righteous God used 'calamity' against the wicked, for example the Flood of Noah's day.
At Jesus' coming Glory Time there will be 'calamity' against the wicked - Matthew 25:31-34.
The wicked 'destroyed forever' - Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-15; Psalms 37:38; Psalms 92:7.
We all have the free-will choice to ' repent ' so as Not to ' perish ' (<- meaning be destroyed ) - 2 Peter 3:9
Satan and Adam (aka angels and humans) were created with free-will choices - James 1:13-15.

Please tell us if everyone on Earth lived by God's Golden Rule how much suffering would there be - *Leviticus 19:18
* So, it is humans disobeying God's Golden Rule that has caused much suffering.
Mankind's history shows man can't direct his step and that is why God will have Jesus step in to come! - Rev. 22:20
Come and bring ' healing ' to earth's nations - Revelation 22:2.
Earth and its people will be happy and healthy as described in Isaiah 35th chapter.
Whether you want to know what the Bible really teaches is up to you, but what you were taught is out of line with Scripture.
Those who want to live by the Golden Rule and Jesus' New commandment -John 13:34-35 can Enjoy Life forever !

Just as I said in the OP, Questions that believers cannot answer…. without resorting to a plethora of religious aoloogetics.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe that a smart person does not ask why God does something but instead asks how he can please God and follow His instructions.

I do not think there is anything smart about the failure to question what makes no sense.
But we can still try to please God ans follow His instructions.

 

[Trailblazer]

If parents are loving, why would they birth their children 'intentionally' into a world that they knew would engender so much human suffering?

If parents are just, why would they birth children knowing some people would suffer so much more than others, many people hardly suffering at all? Why have a child then?

There is a simple answer to that.... because they wanted to have children and God created such a world so it was the only world they could bring children into..

The parents did not create this world so this post is obfuscation.

 

[Trailblazer]

The question isn't why there's suffering in the world if God exists... the question is why there's any good thing if he doesn't.

Deflection and Obfuscation.
Just as I expected as said in the OP: Believers only want to look at the good things and thank God for those things, they do not want to look at the bad things for which God is responsible.

 

[Trailblazer]

How can God know the future and not know how we will react to severe stress?

God does know, but obviously He does not give a rip if people suffer.

 

[Spirit of Light]

God does know, but obviously He does not give a rip if people suffer.

That is your assumption.
How can you really what God think or care about?

 

[Trailblazer]

Since this is a question to believers, it would logically follow, it has to be a question from an unbeliever.
An unbelieving Bahai. What next?

I am not an unbelieving Baha'i. I believe in God but I think for myself so I question whether God is loving and just rather than believing it just because it is in scripture..

God is loving.

Prove it. Otherwise it is just a personal opinion, a belief.

God did not create the world... or did you mean the earth?
God did not create a world that He knew would engender so much human and animal suffering.

I meant the earth, and if God created it and God is all-knowing, then God created a world that He knew would engender much human and animal suffering

The one asking the question wrongly assumes that God knew there would be suffering when he created mankind.
He didn't.

If God did not know there would be suffering wen He created this world, then God is not all-knowing.
Just as I expected, religious apologetics in an attempt to cover God's actions

It would be very stupid for God to know this, and then tell Adam that he should not eat from the tree, or he would die. Then turn around and ask Adam what he had done.
An 8 year old didn't write the Bible.

I do not believe there was an Adam and Eve or a Garden of Eden. I believe that story was an allegory, but I attach a different meaning to it than you do.

Speaking of God's love though.
That is evident from God, 1) giving mankind the gift of life, and 2) opening to them the opportunity to enjoy the real life - everlasting life.

Just as I said in the OP, Believers only want to look at the good things and thank God for those things, they do not want to look at the bad things for which God is responsible. Since God is responsible for BOTH the good and the bad, that is patently illogical.

What about people who do not want everlasting life?

Suppose though, we did go with the wrong assumption in the OP. Let's assume God knew before creating mankind, that they would suffer greatly.
That would not render his love void, or prove him to be unloving. Why?

If you don't know the answer to that you need a course in logic.
Believers are so brainwashed by their 'belief' that God is loving that they cannot see the forest through the trees.

He gave mankind life, and he opened the way or made provisions for mankind - even those who would suffer for a short while - to enjoy living forever.
That's love.

He created a world that is a storehouse of suffering that we have no choice but to live through.
Storehouse of Suffering quote

That is no more loving than a parent who has children and throws them into a cesspool and asks them to swim.

Question answered logically, and Biblically.
Any other questions?

No, there is nothing logical about your answers. They are the product of religious indoctrination.

Answered above. However...
It would be fair, in that all - those who suffer greatly, and those who suffer little - will, because of God's love, have the prospect of living a zillion years... with zero suffering.

What's 100 years compared to a zillion? Nothing.

Got any proof of the zillion years with zero suffering.
No, that is just a belief and it only helps some of those who believe it.
What about the rest of humanity who does not hold such a belief?
And that does not negate the suffering people have to endure to get to the zero suffering

Yes, you assume Adam and Eve were predestined to do disobey God, but that assumption does not agree with scripture, at all.

As I said above, I do not believe there was ever an Adam and Eve who disobeyed God. Baha'is don't believe that story is anything but an allegory.

Predestination of suffering by God, is a false doctrine.
It's not Biblical.

It might not be Biblical but that does not mean it is false.

This is false.

Only in your belief system. It is true in my belief system.

This is partly true, but not entirely.
Man is responsible for sickness and death, decline in power, injuries, and sometimes "misfortune".

Some men die, get sick, or suffer injury because of their own actions, or the actions of other men.

I covered that on the OP. To recap:

"To clarify, I believe that some things that happen to us are subject to human free will and some things are not, because they were predestined by God and we have no control over them. That is called fate.

All things that are not chosen by virtue of our own free are beyond our control and I believe they are predestined by God. God is responsible for both the good and the bad things that happen to us, if those things were predestined."

But in the brainwashed believer's mind, God is only responsible for the good things that happen even though that is patently illogical.

No. God did not set it up for Adam to sin. That's not Biblical, so I don't know where persons get that idea.

I never said that God set it up for Adam to sin. I do not believe God set anything up. People chose to sin because we all have a sin nature as well as a spiritual nature and free will to choose to act according to one of those two natures.

Some people, want to claim God is responsible for all bad things without any supporting scriptures. This is the unbeliever's idea - some, a mistaken idea; some, a deliberate false idea.

Some people, want to claim God is not responsible for anything bad.
This is the believer's idea - some, a mistaken idea; some, a deliberate false idea.

Good. No need to keep trying to raise a dead case that has been put to "rest" already. After all, you aren't the Messiah.

It is not a dead case, it is alive and well among people who actually use their rational minds to think, rather than just believing the religious indoctrination.
Me not being the Messiah is a red herring.

The scripture you quoted above has an interpretation. Yes?
Interestingly, in this particular case, Trailblazer doesn't have an interpretation? Trailblazer? Noooo. Surely she hasn't been replaced by a clone.
Whatever happened to, 'I have a different interpretation.'

You can have whatever interpretation you want because you have free will to choose.

 

[Trailblazer]

Suffering exists in this life. So, what's your ultimate point? God is evil? There are some who believe God exists, but is evil or God can be evil. It's called Dystheism.

No, I never said that God is evil. I am only calling into question the claim that God is loving and just. That is a religious belief but there is no real world evidence to support that belief, not without resorting to religious apologetics.