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Featured Questions for Atheists and Agnostics

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Trailblazer, Jul 21, 2018.

  1. ukok102nak

    ukok102nak Active Member

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    ancient as the word itself until they called it the true christians
    ... . telling the truth doesn't need to be someone who
    belonged unto any particular religion nor even forcing anyone
    to be on a particular group and especially if being one with people who doesn't
    believed in existence of gods is not an issue at all as long as they telling the truth
    but if a person has no intention of saying
    what you want to hear from her or him and you already knew it that she or he is lying then
    if we may say so as it is written
    :read:
    They are all adulterers, as an oven heated by the baker,
    who ceaseth from raising after he hath kneaded the dough, until it be leavened.
    Hosea 7:4 KJVA



    (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
    proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
    And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them .
    For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
    But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light:
    for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
    Ephesians 5:9‭-‬13 KJVA
     
  2. lukethethird

    lukethethird Well-Known Member

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    Then you have authority over those writings and God itself.
     
  3. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    No, I have authority over nothing or nobody, certainly not over God.
    God has authority over everyone and everything.
    I just decided to "believe" the Writings of Baha'u'llah are valid.
    That gives me no authority.
    As a Manifestation of God, Baha'u'llah has all authority because He is a Representative of God.

    “The Person of the Manifestation hath ever been the representative and mouthpiece of God. He, in truth, is the Day Spring of God’s most excellent Titles, and the Dawning-Place of His exalted Attributes. If any be set up by His side as peers, if they be regarded as identical with His Person, how can it, then, be maintained that the Divine Being is One and Incomparable, that His Essence is indivisible and peerless? Meditate on that which We have, through the power of truth, revealed unto thee, and be thou of them that comprehend its meaning.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 70
     
  4. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    It makes you the judge of what you now consider the word of God.
     
  5. Bird123

    Bird123 Well-Known Member

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    Clearly, you do not understand.
     
  6. Bird123

    Bird123 Well-Known Member

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    I am not against anyone. On the other hand, I am for Truth. If the truth does not match your set of beliefs, that will be an issue you will have to deal with. I will not value Beliefs as if they were the truth. Beliefs just point a direction by which one should search to Discover the Real Truth.
     
  7. Bird123

    Bird123 Well-Known Member

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    All religions will tell you they come from God. How would they ever get followers if they did not convince people of that?

    You list beliefs that tell you everything about God can only come through your messengers. You list beliefs of what one can and can not do. I already know none of these beliefs are true. I will not be confined to a box of beliefs when there is so much to Discover outside your box.
     
  8. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    It means that I judged for myself what I consider the Word of God.

    Judge: form an opinion or conclusion about. https://www.google.com/search

    I do not judge for anyone else. Everyone has to judge for themselves.
     
  9. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Clearly, you do not understand.
    God is the Ruler of the universe who created all things. This is God 101 stuff.

    “All praise to the unity of God, and all honor to Him, the sovereign Lord, the incomparable and all-glorious Ruler of the universe, Who, out of utter nothingness, hath created the reality of all things, Who, from naught, hath brought into being the most refined and subtle elements of His creation, and Who, rescuing His creatures from the abasement of remoteness and the perils of ultimate extinction, hath received them into His kingdom of incorruptible glory.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 64-65
     
  10. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    We can discover our own truths, but humans are fallible so nothing humans can discover on their own is inerrant. As such what we discover is no more than a personal opinion we believe to be true. It cannot be called the Real Truth.

    The Real Truth about God comes ONLY from God through the Manifestations of God because they alone get communication from God and they alone are infallible.

    This is logic 101 stuff.
     
  11. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    A Baha'i on another thread said truth is relative. So doesn't that make God's Truth ever changing?
     
  12. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    They either came from God or they were made up by man. The evidence indicates they came from God.
    I already know my beliefs are true because they come from an infallible Manifestation of God.
    You are free to make up your own beliefs about God because you have free will.
    I am not confined to a box of beliefs. I am free to discover anything I want to do because I have free will.
     
  13. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Only God has All Truth. Truth from God as it is revealed by Manifestations of God to humanity is relative Truth because it is revealed according to what humanity needs and is able to comprehend in any given age. There will always be more Truth from God in every new age because as humanity evolves materially, intellectually and spiritually, humanity needs more Truth and is able to comprehend more Truth.

    Some of God's Truth such as social teachings and laws change over time but Spiritual Truth does not change. It is eternal.
     
  14. Bird123

    Bird123 Well-Known Member

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    Making mistakes is a part of God's system. More is learned through errors than almost anything else. I think you have said it: I'll never do that again. Did you need a book to tell you that?

    The only error I can see is that you believe holy books are sent from God. If God were to write a Holy Book, it would come out much different from anything in the world today.
     
  15. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I agree that making mistakes is part of the plan for learning. I made a pretty big mistake today and it could have been a great tragedy. Luckily, after two hours of prayers, it turned out okay, but I cannot even imagine if it hadn't. From now on I will be checking to make sure the front door is closed every time I go out and I will be really careful to never leave it open for one split second... Live and learn.

    I do not need a book to tell me what is just common sense, but I like having a book to tell me what I should be seeking to acquire by way of spiritual attributes, since that is all I will be taking with me to the spiritual world after I die. I never would have thought certain things are important as they are had I not read them in the Baha'i Writings. Now I diligently aim for these high ideals. I see them simply as a Guide to right living. It is really no different from what is in the Bible although the Bahai Writings are more straightforward and easier to understand.
    It would not be any different from the Writings of Baha'u'llah since God did write those.

    “Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world....... in moments in which these Essences of Being were deep immersed beneath the oceans of ancient and everlasting holiness, or when they soared to the loftiest summits of Divine mysteries, they claimed their utterances to be the Voice of Divinity, the Call of God Himself.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 54-55
     
  16. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    But the Baha'i Faith also says that all the religions of the past added traditions and misinterpretations into the mix, so they didn't "comprehend" the message. To me, each group or culture had their ideas, or mythology, about spiritual things. Why would the One True God reveal things about there being many gods? Or things about an evil spirit being? Or about reincarnation? Baha'is say none of those are true, yet they are part of other religions... and some of those religions Baha'is say are part of the true progression of religious truth. For me, it seems much more likely that people had a lot to do with developing the concepts about the spiritual world.
     
  17. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Sorry it has taken me so long to get back to this post. I have been writing it in a Word document off and on and I finally finished it and found time to post it.
    Believe me, it was not easy getting all that into one post!I had to pare it down several times before it was under the maximum length. Even though I eliminated a lot of this post, it was still too long for one post, so I am going to divide it into two posts.

    How do you think I can show that the overwhelmingly mainstream understanding of the bible for the past 2000 years is incorrect in one post? The best I can do is whack away at it, one idea at a time.
    It has nothing to do with capability. Just because God is “capable” of doing something does not mean God has to do it. That is illogical.

    But in a certain sense, God did walk the earth, since Jesus was a Manifestation of God, a perfect mirror image of God, just not the Essence of God in the flesh.
    Unfortunately, I do not know the Bible well enough to find the best verses that would say what I am trying to say. I only know a few verses I have collected. Let’s just take this one verse, which says exactly what I want to say, in all the translations below:

    John 1:18

    CEB No one has ever seen God. God the only Son, who is at the Father’s side, has made God known.

    NASB No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

    NCV No one has ever seen God. But God the only Son is very close to the Father, and he has shown us what God is like.

    NKJV No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

    NLV The much-loved Son is beside the Father. No man has ever seen God. But Christ has made God known to us.

    RSV No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

    WE No one has ever seen God. But his only Son is very near to his Father's heart. He has told us plainly about God.

    Jesus did all of the following: Made God known, explained God, showed us what God is like, declared God, made God known to us, told us plainly about God.

    There are some other translations that say Jesus is God, but they make no sense:

    NET No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known.

    NIV No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

    NLT No one has ever seen God. But the unique One, who is himself God, is near to the Father’s heart. He has revealed God to us.

    We have seen Jesus so Jesus cannot be God.
    How can God be in fellowship with Himself?
    How can God be in a relationship with Himself?
    How can God be near and dear to His own heart?
    No, that verse does not say that the Fullness of God became flesh. It says that God was manifested in the flesh. The question we have to ask is: what was manifested?

    The Christian equivalent to the Bahá'í concept of Manifestation is the concept of incarnation. The word to incarnate means 'to embody in flesh or 'to assume, or exist in, a bodily (esp. a human) form (Oxford English Dictionary). From a Bahá'í point of view, the important question regarding the subject of incarnation is, what does Jesus incarnate? Bahá'ís can certainly say that Jesus incarnated Gods attributes, in the sense that in Jesus, Gods attributes were perfectly reflected and expressed.[4] The Bahá'í scriptures, however, reject the belief that the ineffable essence of the Divinity was ever perfectly and completely contained in a single human body, because the Bahá'í scriptures emphasize the omnipresence and transcendence of the essence of God…..
    Jesus Christ in the Bahá'í Writings
    Mark 2:6-10 But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only? And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts? Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)

    Jesus did not say what is in Mark 2:7. The scribes said that. Then Jesus said in Mark 2:10 “But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,).” So Jesus was saying that He, the Son of man, had the power to forgive sins. That concurs exactly with what Baha’u’llah wrote. In the passage below Baha’u’llah is saying that God’s chosen ones (Manifestations of God) have the power to forgive sins. I post this again only because it is from the Bible and it is necessary for me to make my point.

    “It is also recorded in the Gospel according to St. Luke, that on a certain day Jesus passed by a Jew who was sick of the palsy, and lay upon a couch. When the Jew saw Him, he recognized Him, and cried out for His help. Jesus said unto him: “Arise from thy bed; thy sins are forgiven thee.” Certain of the Jews, standing by, protested saying: “Who can forgive sins, but God alone?” And immediately He perceived their thoughts, Jesus answering said unto them: “Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, arise, and take up thy bed, and walk; or to say, thy sins are forgiven thee? that ye may know that the Son of Man hath power on earth to forgive sins.”7 This is the real sovereignty, and such is the power of God’s chosen Ones!” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 133-134
    Briefly, Jesus has a Soul and a Body. The Soul of Jesus can have always existed because it was in the spiritual world, which has always existed, since it is without beginning or end. But we know that the Body of Jesus was born of Mary so it cannot have always existed.

    I do not know what you mean when you say that Jesus was a divine spirit clothed in flesh.
    That is absolutely true. Jesus was able to perform miracles because He had the Power of God. Baha’u’llah also performed miracles because He had the Power of God. Angels can perform miracles because they have the Power of God.

    (Continued on next post...)
     
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  18. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    As I pointed out above, the Bible says different things in different translations, so what are we to do?
    No, God is not composed of three divine persons; God is One. The Trinity is not in the Bible. You well know that not all Christians believe in the Trinity and they are all reading the same Bible. How do you explain that?
    I cannot disagree with that. Jesus the Son had a divine nature. But that is not the same thing as saying Jesus was God, or that God became Jesus in the flesh. God’s Attributes were perfectly manifested in Jesus, but God’s Essence cannot be manifested to anyone, not even to Jesus. It forever remains hidden from anyone except God. Thus God is separate from Jesus because God is forever one and alone, sanctified above corporeal existence, although God is one with Jesus because both share the same Spirit.

    John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

    Then in John 10:36-37, Jesus says “Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.”

    Jesus is desperately trying to convince the Jews that He is not claiming to be God; He says He is the Son of God.

    Jesus manifested God and Jesus was also a Mediator between God and man, as is expressed in this verse:

    1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

    Notice that the verse says “and” which is differentiating God from Jesus.
    That translation says that but hardly any of the many translations say that Jesus is God (see above short list).
    I believe it is true because that is what the Baha’i Faith teaches, and the Revelation of Baha’u’llah supersedes any previous revelations from God, such as the Bible. However, it does not contradict the Bible because God’s Word cannot contradict itself. Social teachings and laws and the message of God change from age to age, but the spiritual truths, such as the nature of a Manifestation of God, does not change. So Jesus has always been who Jesus was, a Manifestation of God, even though Christians do not understand that since they interpret the same verses to mean Jesus was God incarnate, since that is what was decided upon at Councils such as Nicaea and it became Church doctrine.
    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    Then when God sent Jesus, Jesus was “manifested” in the flesh, and the Word that was God and was with God became flesh and dwelt among us. That does not mean that God became flesh, but rather that the Attributes of God were manifested in Jesus who came in the flesh and revealed God to humanity.

    As Abdu’l-Baha wrote: “For the Word does not signify the body of Christ, no, but the divine perfections manifested in Him.” Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 206

    Jesus was the perfect revelation of God in the flesh because he who has seen Jesus in the flesh has seen the all the Attributes of the Father. As Baha’u’llah wrote:

    “Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world.......” Gleanings, p. 54

    But nobody has ever seen the Essence of the Father, which is why Jesus could not be FULLY GOD. That is why Jesus said: John 1:18 “No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.” Jesus meant that no man has seen the Essence of God because God cannot incarnate His Essence and reveal it to man, which is what Baha’u’llah also said in this passage;

    “Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived.” Gleanings, p. 49
    I think I covered that point above. In brief, God manifested His Attributes on earth in Jesus, but the Essence of God did not become flesh.
    I think I touched on that above but we can go over that more later if you want to.
    If I quote the Baha’i Writings, that is just to explain what I believe about the subject at hand. I will try to make any quotes brief.
    I think I explained that above. Let me know if you have any questions.
     
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  19. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    First of all, we do not have any original scriptures from any of these older religions written by the Prophet who is behind the religion, so we cannot really know what was said. Secondly, whatever was written got changed over time by human meddling. That is why Baha'u'llah said we should disregard these older religions and turn towards Him.

    “This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 171-172
     
  20. Podo

    Podo Member

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    If a singular god existed, it would either desire everyone's worship and therefore be imperfect by virtue of simply having "wants." Or, it would not care if we worshiped it, thus meaning that there is no point in doing so.

    If it wanted everyone to believe it in, but couldn't force it, then it was not all-powerful and does not deserve my worship. If it could make everyone worship it and chose not to, then it is sadistic and not worth my worship. If it just sorta half-assedly attempts to convince people to worship it via cryptic writings that get corrupted by humans over the centuries, then it's pretty bad at its job.

    No, because if it existed and IF it could manifest, it would have done so.
     
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