Questions for Atheists and Agnostics

[Trailblazer]

Then you are going to have to show that the NT authors were in error. The entire NT concerns God becoming a man and dwelling with us.

No, I do not have to do anything. Scriptures can be made to mean anything you want them to mean. It is only the Christian interpretation of the Bible that leads you to believe that. The NT does not “say” that God became a man or that the Holy Spirit lives inside of human beings. That is your interpretation.

Then your God is not as great as my own. You need to show that God is not capable of putting on flesh.

You do not have a God and neither do I. God is everyone’s God. I do not need to show that God is not capable of putting on flesh. All I need is a logical mind and the Writings of Baha’u’llah. Baha’u’llah clearly explained why that is impossible. All of God cannot become flesh, but the Attributes of God became flesh when God manifested Himself in Jesus and Jesus testified of God. Jesus was a Manifestation of God, not God incarnate.

“Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49​

The following verse is accurate:

1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

Jesus forgave sins, only God can do that. Jesus existed before the universe, he has never not existed, he did miracles in his own name, he is the only being to be resurrected, he created everything, he has been placed over everything etc.... He sure sounds like a deity.

There is absolutely no reason to think that only God can forgive sins. Baha’u’llah wrote that Jesus forgave sins:

“It is also recorded in the Gospel according to St. Luke, that on a certain day Jesus passed by a Jew who was sick of the palsy, and lay upon a couch. When the Jew saw Him, he recognized Him, and cried out for His help. Jesus said unto him: “Arise from thy bed; thy sins are forgiven thee.” Certain of the Jews, standing by, protested saying: “Who can forgive sins, but God alone?” And immediately He perceived their thoughts, Jesus answering said unto them: “Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, arise, and take up thy bed, and walk; or to say, thy sins are forgiven thee? that ye may know that the Son of Man hath power on earth to forgive sins.” 7 This is the real sovereignty, and such is the power of God’s chosen Ones! All these things which We have repeatedly mentioned, and the details which We have cited from divers sources, have no other purpose but to enable thee to grasp the meaning of the allusions in the utterances of the chosen Ones of God, lest certain of these utterances cause thy feet to falter and thy heart to be dismayed.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 133-134
​

It is a Baha’i belief that the soul of Jesus existed in the spiritual world before Jesus was born into this world. Since the spiritual world is without beginning or end that means the soul of Jesus always existed.

There is no reason to think that only God can perform miracles. A Manifestation of God can perform miracles because He is not an ordinary man; He is a higher order of creation and He has a divine mind.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
New International Version
No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

I love how translators take it upon themselves to change the whole meaning of the NT and make it say what they want it to say... How convenient.

Below are the accurate translations which are very similar.

John 1:18

CEB No one has ever seen God. God the only Son, who is at the Father’s side, has made God known.
NASB No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

NCV No one has ever seen God. But God the only Son is very close to the Father, and he has shown us what God is like.

NKJV No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

NLV The much-loved Son is beside the Father. No man has ever seen God. But Christ has made God known to us.
RSV No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

WE No one has ever seen God. But his only Son is very near to his Father's heart. He has told us plainly about God.

John 1:18 - Bible Gateway

“but the one and only Son, who is himself God” makes absolutely no sense to anyone who thinks logically. Jesus was either the Son of God or God; He cannot be both. I know the Trinity says this but it makes no sense at all. Jesus was the Son of God, a perfect mirror image of God who therefore manifested God. As the translations above say, Jesus declared God, made God known, told us plainly about God, showed us what God is like, explained God. If Jesus was God, Jesus would not have to tell us about God or explain God.

Jesus is not the father yet still divine. Are you familiar with the trinity?

Of course I am familiar with the Trinity but I do not believe that God is three Persons.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
New International Version
No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

If God is in us then he can manifest himself in the flesh.

God lives in our hearts when we are close to God but that does not mean that God literally takes up residence in our bodies. God can manifest Himself in the flesh, but that is different from God becoming flesh. God cannot become flesh.

John 17:3 Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

John 7:28-29 Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not. But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.

Christ is differentiating between the father and he the son as far as their rolls are concerned not whether they are both divine.

They are both divine because Jesus had a divine nature as well as a human nature, but Jesus was not God in the flesh.

Matthew 1:23 - “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

God was with us because God “manifested” Himself in Jesus.

Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

This verse does not refer to Jesus. Jesus did not have the government upon his shoulder. Rather He said "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's".

This verse refers to Baha’u’llah. Baha’u’llah was the Prince of Peace because His Mission was to establish peace on earth. He also set up a system of government and it has already been established among the Baha’is. The institutions of that government are fully operational, but still in their infancy. They will be more developed in the future as the prophecy says (increase in government).

Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Baha’u’llah was the Lord of Hosts and He rules upon the Throne of David.

“THE Most Great Law is come, and the Ancient Beauty ruleth upon the throne of David. Thus hath My Pen spoken that which the histories of bygone ages have related. At this time, however, David crieth aloud and saith: ‘O my loving Lord! Do Thou number me with such as have stood steadfast in Thy Cause, O Thou through Whom the faces have been illumined, and the footsteps have slipped!’” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 89-90​

 

[Trailblazer]

How do you know? Through Beliefs? Through contact? To know God exists through beliefs is not really knowing. It's believing.

I know God exists because Baha’u’llah revealed God.
Nobody has contact with God, NOBODY.

 

[Trailblazer]

My quote; “The Prophets of God should be regarded as physicians whose task is to foster the well-being of the world and its peoples, that, through the spirit of oneness, they may heal the sickness of a divided humanity. To none is given the right to question their words or disparage their conduct, for they are the only ones who can claim to have understood the patient and to have correctly diagnosed its ailments. No man, however acute his perception, can ever hope to reach the heights which the wisdom and understanding of the Divine Physician have attained.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 80

Your Answer; Can you read starting: To none is given the right to question....
With the Real God, everyone has the right to question.

“to none is given the right to question their words or disparage their conduct” simply means you cannot know as much as a Prophet of God because “they are the only ones who can claim to have understood the patient (humanity) and to have correctly diagnosed the ailments of humanity.” A Prophet of God is infallible and you are not infallible, so to question a Prophet is illogical, not to mention highly arrogant. God did not choose you to be a Prophet so you are not a Prophet. You can question the Prophet if you want to though, because you have free will.

My quote; How do you know you made a connection with God?

Your Answer; You will know when you do. You will also know God because you have been with God before.

Nobody has ever been with God except possibly the Prophets.

My quote; You did not answer my specific questions.

Your Answer; You seem to want all the answers without taking your journey. The actions of God are all around us. Example: Knowledge is not just given to us. It must be Discovered. Why would God do this? God created illness, viruses, bacteria and disease. This is an action of God. Why do people die? This is an action of God.

The actions of human are all around you. God did not create all these things. They are just part of the natural order of the universe.

Ok. If God wants you to do something, how does He get you to do it? Does God appear and say do it? No. Does God threaten you like mankind does of what will happen to you if you don't? No. Does God send messengers to tell you what to do then tell you how bad you are going to get it if you don't? Of course not. Look around you and Discover something about God.

Look around you and you will Discover something about God’s Creation. That is all you will Discover. That is a very indirect way of knowing about God. The only way you can get direct information about God is from what the Messengers/Prophets reveal. Moreover, you cannot know jack squat about God’s Will from looking around in the world. The ONLY WAY you can know God’s Will is from what the Messengers/Prophets reveal.

For the population to exist, God must have a constant supply of physical bodies for people. God doesn't command this. God makes sex so good that there will always be kids.

God created us this way so people would procreate and the human species would continue. Then people abused what God created sex for. Of course there is no way to know what is right and wrong unless you read the revealed Word. Otherwise, anything goes. That is one reason this world is in such a big fat mess. If you have the illusion it is all just beautiful, you have your head in the sand.

God's system depends on interaction between people. Does God command that everyone interact? No. If you do not interact after a given amount of time, you start to get lonely. Further, the more isolated one becomes; the more lonely one becomes.

That might be true for most people but not for everyone. Some people like to be alone.

Do you see and understand God's actions? No words are needed. No rules. No laws. No threats. No enforcement needs. It just works all on it's own. God is High Intelligence, You going to have to Stretch if you are going to understand. On the other hand, you just might not be ready.

No, I do not understand God’s actions, nobody does. Looking at our physical bodies and how we were created is not going to tell us what we were created for. We learn the purpose of our existence from God’s Messengers. The only actions of God we can know about is that God created the universe and God sent Messengers. Anything else you think God is doing is pure conjecture.

My quote; How does God confirm when you have Discovered enough that you really Understand?

Your Answer: God hears and sees it all. God can know you simply by watching your actions. This is not just one way.

Yes, God hears and sees all but God already knows you before you ever act. It is one way. Nobody can see or hear God. You can know nothing about God without an Intermediary, the Messenger of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why does God hide things like you said? What purpose is there to hide? Is God afraid you might find out something you are not supposed to know? Does this really add up for you? What is the purpose of hiding everything? God hides nothing!!

God hides whatever God wants to hide and reveals whatever He wants to reveal. God does not have to explain the Purpose for hiding Himself or for hiding anything He knows from us. God does whatever God wants to do because God is omnipotent.

There is a lot that we either cannot understand or don’t need to know. God only reveals what is within our capacity to understand and what we need to know. Humanity evolves over time and when we have more capacity to understand and need more, more is revealed. God reveals more Truth every time God sends a new Messenger. Baha’u’llah had God’s knowledge but He did not reveal all of it because we were not ready to hear it.

“Oh, would that the world could believe Me! Were all the things that lie enshrined within the heart of Bahá, and which the Lord, His God, the Lord of all names, hath taught Him, to be unveiled to mankind, every man on earth would be dumbfounded.​

How great the multitude of truths which the garment of words can never contain! How vast the number of such verities as no expression can adequately describe, whose significance can never be unfolded, and to which not even the remotest allusions can be made! How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the appointed time is come! Even as it hath been said: “Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who hear it.

Of these truths some can be disclosed only to the extent of the capacity of the repositories of the light of Our knowledge, and the recipients of Our hidden grace.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 176​

Study God's actions and God's system. Why is it important that each decides for themselves what is petty? Yes, even a murderer decides for themselves.

You cannot know God’s actions or God’s system. Only God knows those.

Put the pieces of the puzzle together. Just like God's actions of guarantying having kids and the interaction of people as a part of God's system. How does it fit? Why is it important everyone decides for themselves what is petty? It's going to take work to Discover.

It makes no sense that everyone decides for themselves what is right and wrong, what is moral and immoral. God sets those standards and reveals them through His Messengers. When anything goes, that is a recipe for disaster, because people are basically selfish. If God had never sent Messengers who established religions, the human race would have gone extinct long ago.

 

[1robin]

No, I do not have to do anything. Scriptures can be made to mean anything you want them to mean. It is only the Christian interpretation of the Bible that leads you to believe that. The NT does not “say” that God became a man or that the Holy Spirit lives inside of human beings. That is your interpretation.

This maybe the longest post I have ever seen. I don't even know how you got all this to fit in a single post. Regardless; yes you need to show the overwhelmingly mainstream understanding of the bible for the past 2000 years is incorrect. You can't just claim Newton got calculus wrong, you need to show his errors.

You do not have a God and neither do I. God is everyone’s God. I do not need to show that God is not capable of putting on flesh. All I need is a logical mind and the Writings of Baha’u’llah. Baha’u’llah clearly explained why that is impossible. All of God cannot become flesh, but the Attributes of God became flesh when God manifested Himself in Jesus and Jesus testified of God. Jesus was a Manifestation of God, not God incarnate.

No, the God you describe is less capable than the one I believe in. What you described is definitely not the God of the bible. My God can and did walk the earth as both a spirit and in the flesh.

“Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.”

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49

I obviously do not find the writing of the Baha'i authoritative so posting them isn't very persuasive. I do believe in the bible so you have got to provide some reason to think the bible got it wrong.​

The following verse is accurate:

1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

What, that verse justifies my own world view not yours? It specifically states that God became flesh which is what I have ben saying.

There is absolutely no reason to think that only God can forgive sins. Baha’u’llah wrote that Jesus forgave sins:

“It is also recorded in the Gospel according to St. Luke, that on a certain day Jesus passed by a Jew who was sick of the palsy, and lay upon a couch. When the Jew saw Him, he recognized Him, and cried out for His help. Jesus said unto him: “Arise from thy bed; thy sins are forgiven thee.” Certain of the Jews, standing by, protested saying: “Who can forgive sins, but God alone?” And immediately He perceived their thoughts, Jesus answering said unto them: “Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, arise, and take up thy bed, and walk; or to say, thy sins are forgiven thee? that ye may know that the Son of Man hath power on earth to forgive sins.” 7 This is the real sovereignty, and such is the power of God’s chosen Ones! All these things which We have repeatedly mentioned, and the details which We have cited from divers sources, have no other purpose but to enable thee to grasp the meaning of the allusions in the utterances of the chosen Ones of God, lest certain of these utterances cause thy feet to falter and thy heart to be dismayed.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 133-134​

There is a big difference between the Baha'i and Christians. Both Christians and the Baha'i hold the bible to be authoritative but Christians do not hold the writings of the Baha'i to be authoritative. So what does the bible say?

Mark 2:7
"Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?"

Only God can forgive sins, Jesus forgave sins, Jesus is God.
​

It is a Baha’i belief that the soul of Jesus existed in the spiritual world before Jesus was born into this world. Since the spiritual world is without beginning or end that means the soul of Jesus always existed.

Why do you post Baha'i beliefs as a Christian does not accept them. However we both accept the bible, so that is what you should post from. Jesus can't always have existed and yet be born. Jesus was a divine spirit clothed in flesh.

There is no reason to think that only God can perform miracles. A Manifestation of God can perform miracles because He is not an ordinary man; He is a higher order of creation and He has a divine mind.

Even miracles performed by men are done so through the power of God. Jesus is the only being other than the father who performed miracles by their own authority. Even angels must depend on God to perform miracles.

I love how translators take it upon themselves to change the whole meaning of the NT and make it say what they want it to say... How convenient.

What I posted is what the bible says, it's the word of God not mere men. You can't (or shouldn't) quote the bible when it suits you and reject it when it is inconvenient. The entire bible must be allowed to speak. This is not an issue of what the bible means it is simply what the bible says.

Below are the accurate translations which are very similar.

John 1:18

CEB No one has ever seen God. God the only Son, who is at the Father’s side, has made God known.
NASB No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

This verse also supports my claim.

Keep in mind that God is one being composed of three divine persons - the trinity.

NCV No one has ever seen God. But God the only Son is very close to the Father, and he has shown us what God is like.

It says it again here. It is saying that no one has seen God except in the form of the divine son.

John 1:18 - Bible Gateway

“but the one and only Son, who is himself God” makes absolutely no sense to anyone who thinks logically. Jesus was either the Son of God or God; He cannot be both. I know the Trinity says this but it makes no sense at all. Jesus was the Son of God, a perfect mirror image of God who therefore manifested God. As the translations above say, Jesus declared God, made God known, told us plainly about God, showed us what God is like, explained God. If Jesus was God, Jesus would not have to tell us about God or explain God.

I don't understand why you keep posting verses that prove my own arguments instead of yours. It specifically says that Jesus is God.

Of course I am familiar with the Trinity but I do not believe that God is three Persons.

Instead of telling me what you believe you should be telling me why what you believe is true.

God lives in our hearts when we are close to God but that does not mean that God literally takes up residence in our bodies. God can manifest Himself in the flesh, but that is different from God becoming flesh. God cannot become flesh.

The bible specifically says that God (the word or logos) did take on flesh and dwell with us.

New International Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
New Living Translation
So the Word became human and made his home among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the Father's one and only Son.

They are both divine because Jesus had a divine nature as well as a human nature, but Jesus was not God in the flesh.
God was with us because God “manifested” Himself in Jesus.

This verse does not refer to Jesus. Jesus did not have the government upon his shoulder. Rather He said "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's".

This verse refers to Baha’u’llah. Baha’u’llah was the Prince of Peace because His Mission was to establish peace on earth. He also set up a system of government and it has already been established among the Baha’is. The institutions of that government are fully operational, but still in their infancy. They will be more developed in the future as the prophecy says (increase in government).

Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

​

This may be teh biggest post I have ever seen. It is too much information to respond to suffeciently so lets take thinsg one at a time so we can fully investigate them.

Lets start with just one set of verses. Once we have discussed them fully then we can move on. Lets see if God can become flesh.

New International Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

So we can see from this verse that the "word" (or logos) was God.

New International Version
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Now we can see from thsi verse that teh word (logos or God) became flesh and dwelt with us.

These two verses specifically claim that God cam eto Earth and dwelt with us in the flesh.


A couple of other thing sto keep in mind.

The trinity - God is one being composed of three persons.

Also, both teh baha'i and Christiaans consider teh bible as authoritative but Christian do not believe teh writing sof teh baha't are authoritative so that means only teh bible is common ground between us. Teh baha'i's writings are not accepted by Christians so wuoting from them just i snot persussive.

So lets discuss teh verses above,, then once done we can move on to other issues. Is this acceptable to you, posting as much stuff as you did all at once does not allow us to spen dmuch time on any one part. So what do you think the verses I posted mean? ​

 

[ecco]

You do not understand because religion has convinced everyone that the way to the truth is by being convinced.

What have I posted that makes you think that religion has convinced me of something/anything?

If I was like religion and valued followers. I would work at keeping the followers following. Do I do this? No. I point to where you are capable of discovering the answers for yourself. That doesn't seem to be enough for you. You want me to convince you. My answer: your journey has never ever been up to me.

Why do you think I want or need your pointing to help me make discoveries? Have I asked for your assistance?

It's like you are wandering around in a desert thirst for water. When I bump into you I tell you if you walk straight east over a couple of hills you will find a city. Are you going to say prove this? I don't know. You might. On the other hand, I'm going to point your direction and allow you to Discover the truth for yourself.

I'm not wandering around in a desert. Why are you wandering around in a desert?

If you want to Discover the Real Truth, you will explore all possibilities. If you just want something to Believe in, pick the best story or even pick the Belief that God does not exist. I'll be happy regardless of your choice.

Talk about wearing blinders. The real truth is that gods are the creation of man's imaginings. You probably believe that to be be true for all gods except the one you "discovered". You don't see that you are no different from all the people who believe in any god.

Just look at the back and forth posts between you and another poster.
You're both asserting your beliefs are right and the other's are wrong.
You're both exactly the same.

 

[Bird123]

I know God exists because Baha’u’llah revealed God.
Nobody has contact with God, NOBODY.

Your Assumption will guaranty you won't. Why do you limit yourself in this way? How many times in your life has someone told you you can't do something? Do you allow this Belief to prevent you from doing anything?

If the truth be known, you might just be surprised how many have had contact with God at some point in their lives.

 

[Bird123]

“to none is given the right to question their words or disparage their conduct” simply means you cannot know as much as a Prophet of God because “they are the only ones who can claim to have understood the patient (humanity) and to have correctly diagnosed the ailments of humanity.” A Prophet of God is infallible and you are not infallible, so to question a Prophet is illogical, not to mention highly arrogant. God did not choose you to be a Prophet so you are not a Prophet. You can question the Prophet if you want to though, because you have free will.

Nobody has ever been with God except possibly the Prophets.

The actions of human are all around you. God did not create all these things. They are just part of the natural order of the universe.

Look around you and you will Discover something about God’s Creation. That is all you will Discover. That is a very indirect way of knowing about God. The only way you can get direct information about God is from what the Messengers/Prophets reveal. Moreover, you cannot know jack squat about God’s Will from looking around in the world. The ONLY WAY you can know God’s Will is from what the Messengers/Prophets reveal.

God created us this way so people would procreate and the human species would continue. Then people abused what God created sex for. Of course there is no way to know what is right and wrong unless you read the revealed Word. Otherwise, anything goes. That is one reason this world is in such a big fat mess. If you have the illusion it is all just beautiful, you have your head in the sand.

That might be true for most people but not for everyone. Some people like to be alone.

No, I do not understand God’s actions, nobody does. Looking at our physical bodies and how we were created is not going to tell us what we were created for. We learn the purpose of our existence from God’s Messengers. The only actions of God we can know about is that God created the universe and God sent Messengers. Anything else you think God is doing is pure conjecture.

Yes, God hears and sees all but God already knows you before you ever act. It is one way. Nobody can see or hear God. You can know nothing about God without an Intermediary, the Messenger of God.

Clearly, you are so lost. You are wrapped in the Beliefs so badly that you are frozen to even make a move on your own. How sad.

Clearly, you are not ready. There are lessons yet for you to learn before you are. All I hear are excuses from you.

You concluded I am not a prophet from God. How do you really know this for sure? When is the last time God supplied you with someone new to follow around? On the other hand, I will not let you to follow. Just like God, I want people capable of standing on their own two feet.

For religion to exist they not only must have followers, they must keep them. That is why the first thing they do is to convince you that you can't find God without them.

Does your religion teach you to hate??? Your hate is reflected in your description that the world is a mess.

A good journey to Discovery takes a lot of time, effort, analyzing and thinking. When you come to Understand God and what God is really doing with people and this world, the view of it all changes. This world is not a mess. It is a Masterpiece. When you can honestly see and say that, I can say that you have lost the hate and are well on your way to true Understanding.

 

[Trailblazer]

Your Assumption will guaranty you won't. Why do you limit yourself in this way? How many times in your life has someone told you you can't do something? Do you allow this Belief to prevent you from doing anything?

My Belief does not prevent me from doing anything. I have done everything I set out to do in my life. My Belief has assisted me to fulfill the real purpose of my existence.

I do what I want to do but I do not do what is impossible to do. Thankfully, my Belief allows me to understand my human limitations and humble myself before God. That is the very purpose of my existence, to empty myself of self and know and worship God.

If the truth be known, you might just be surprised how many have had contact with God at some point in their lives.

If the truth be known, nobody has ever had contact with the Almighty God. Anyone who thinks they have is delusional.

The Manifestations of God stand on the All-Highest Throne, and they are the the Sadratu’l-Muntahá, the Tree beyond which there is no passing, the Habitation of everlasting might and glory. Nobody can go past that Tree so nobody can ever have any contact with God.

 

[Bird123]

God hides whatever God wants to hide and reveals whatever He wants to reveal. God does not have to explain the Purpose for hiding Himself or for hiding anything He knows from us. God does whatever God wants to do because God is omnipotent.

There is a lot that we either cannot understand or don’t need to know. God only reveals what is within our capacity to understand and what we need to know. Humanity evolves over time and when we have more capacity to understand and need more, more is revealed. God reveals more Truth every time God sends a new Messenger. Baha’u’llah had God’s knowledge but He did not reveal all of it because we were not ready to hear it.

“Oh, would that the world could believe Me! Were all the things that lie enshrined within the heart of Bahá, and which the Lord, His God, the Lord of all names, hath taught Him, to be unveiled to mankind, every man on earth would be dumbfounded.​

How great the multitude of truths which the garment of words can never contain! How vast the number of such verities as no expression can adequately describe, whose significance can never be unfolded, and to which not even the remotest allusions can be made! How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the appointed time is come! Even as it hath been said: “Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who hear it.

Of these truths some can be disclosed only to the extent of the capacity of the repositories of the light of Our knowledge, and the recipients of Our hidden grace.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 176​

You cannot know God’s actions or God’s system. Only God knows those.

It makes no sense that everyone decides for themselves what is right and wrong, what is moral and immoral. God sets those standards and reveals them through His Messengers. When anything goes, that is a recipe for disaster, because people are basically selfish. If God had never sent Messengers who established religions, the human race would have gone extinct long ago.

your quote;It makes no sense that everyone decides for themselves what is right and wrong, what is moral and immoral. My Answer: Knowledge lives beyond the surface. Can you see beyond the surface? Example: You can look at a person and see a person, however what about DNA. What about the Spiritual side? How much do you miss with narrow vision?

If you truly understood God's system it would be clear everyone chooses for themselves. Hmmm? Maybe this is something you can work on. How does it fit that everyone decides for themselves? Oh yes, it's going to take some work. Remember how God thinks with the sex and interacting with others, Multiple Levels with Multiple Views. Yes, Pure Genius!

How long did birds fly before mankind figured out how? God hides nothing. In fact, I think it is pure Genius how God places the knowledge around us all waiting for us to Discover it.

You can always tell when beliefs are coming from mankind when they tell you not to question or it's done a way cause God said so. This is not High Intelligence!!! This is not God!!

 

[Bird123]

What have I posted that makes you think that religion has convinced me of something/anything?


Why do you think I want or need your pointing to help me make discoveries? Have I asked for your assistance?


I'm not wandering around in a desert. Why are you wandering around in a desert?



Talk about wearing blinders. The real truth is that gods are the creation of man's imaginings. You probably believe that to be be true for all gods except the one you "discovered". You don't see that you are no different from all the people who believe in any god.

Just look at the back and forth posts between you and another poster.
You're both asserting your beliefs are right and the other's are wrong.
You're both exactly the same.

If I follow your logic, then you do not really exist. I just believe someone responds to my comments. Do you see my problem? I could never say you do not exist no matter how others might insist you do not.

 

[Bird123]

My Belief does not prevent me from doing anything. I have done everything I set out to do in my life. My Belief has assisted me to fulfill the real purpose of my existence.

I do what I want to do but I do not do what is impossible to do. Thankfully, my Belief allows me to understand my human limitations and humble myself before God. That is the very purpose of my existence, to empty myself of self and know and worship God.

If the truth be known, nobody has ever had contact with the Almighty God. Anyone who thinks they have is delusional.

The Manifestations of God stand on the All-Highest Throne, and they are the the Sadratu’l-Muntahá, the Tree beyond which there is no passing, the Habitation of everlasting might and glory. Nobody can go past that Tree so nobody can ever have any contact with God.

There are no THONES. This is part of mankind's petty value of ruling.

 

[Trailblazer]

If I follow your logic, then you do not really exist. I just believe someone responds to my comments. Do you see my problem? I could never say you do not exist no matter how others might insist you do not.

What's with the red herring? Why can't you respond to what ecco said?

ecco said: "Talk about wearing blinders. The real truth is that gods are the creation of man's imaginings. You probably believe that to be be true for all gods except the one you "discovered". You don't see that you are no different from all the people who believe in any god.

Just look at the back and forth posts between you and another poster.
You're both asserting your beliefs are right and the other's are wrong.
You're both exactly the same."

Why doesn't ecco exist? Because he does not agree with your the god you think you have discovered, the god for which you have no evidence?

 

[Trailblazer]

Clearly, you are so lost. You are wrapped in the Beliefs so badly that you are frozen to even make a move on your own. How sad.

You are so lost. You are lost because you think you know something about God that you do not know. By contrast, atheists are not lost because at least they know that they do not know anything about God. For atheists there is a chance that they can come to know God if they want to and if they have an open mind. By contrast, your arrogance stands in the way of you ever knowing the One True God. You think all you need is yourself in order to know God. Nothing could be further from the truth because it is the ego self that stands in between us and God. You know nothing about God because there is no way to know anything about God without a revealed religion. That is the Reality. What you are living is a Fantasy.

You have created your own Belief system based upon your own ego. How sad.

God communicates only through Messengers. Religious scriptures are the Truth from God. They are the ONLY Truth from God. There is nothing you can ever do to change that. Nothing you have is Truth, it is an illusion.

Clearly, you are not ready. There are lessons yet for you to learn before you are. All I hear are excuses from you.

Not ready for what? Not ready to follow your man-made religion? That is what you have done, set up a religion. Unfortunately, it is a false religion. Real religions have real Messengers with real messages. You have no message.

You concluded I am not a prophet from God. How do you really know this for sure? When is the last time God supplied you with someone new to follow around? On the other hand, I will not let you to follow. Just like God, I want people capable of standing on their own two feet.

How do I know you are not a prophet of God? Jesus explained how we know who is a prophet of God. Do you have any fruits?
Fruits: the pleasant or successful result of work or actions: fruit Meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.​

You do not have a clue what God wants because the ONLY way to know that is through what the Messengers of God reveal.

First and foremost, God wants us to recognize Baha’u’llah and secondly God wants us to follow His ordinances.

For religion to exist they not only must have followers, they must keep them. That is why the first thing they do is to convince you that you can't find God without them.

You cannot find God without religion. All you have found is a figment of your imagination and you call it God. Your problem is that you have to have complete control and if you follow a religion you lose that control. This is psych 101 stuff.

Does your religion teach you to hate??? Your hate is reflected in your description that the world is a mess.

I have no hate. To say the word is a mess is the truth. It is a mess because most people have turned away from Baha’u’llah and the remedy He brought to clean up the mess humanity has made.
If you cannot even see what a mess the world is in you have your head in the sand.

“The Great Being saith: O ye children of men! The fundamental purpose animating the Faith of God and His Religion is to safeguard the interests and promote the unity of the human race, and to foster the spirit of love and fellowship amongst men. Suffer it not to become a source of dissension and discord, of hate and enmity. This is the straight Path, the fixed and immovable foundation. Whatsoever is raised on this foundation, the changes and chances of the world can never impair its strength, nor will the revolution of countless centuries undermine its structure. Our hope is that the world’s religious leaders and the rulers thereof will unitedly arise for the reformation of this age and the rehabilitation of its fortunes. Let them, after meditating on its needs, take counsel together and, through anxious and full deliberation, administer to a diseased and sorely-afflicted world the remedy it requireth…. It is incumbent upon them who are in authority to exercise moderation in all things. Whatsoever passeth beyond the limits of moderation will cease to exert a beneficial influence. Consider for instance such things as liberty, civilization and the like. However much men of understanding may favorably regard them, they will, if carried to excess, exercise a pernicious influence upon men…. Please God, the peoples of the world may be led, as the result of the high endeavors exerted by their rulers and the wise and learned amongst men, to recognize their best interests. How long will humanity persist in its waywardness? How long will injustice continue? How long is chaos and confusion to reign amongst men? How long will discord agitate the face of society?… The winds of despair are, alas, blowing from every direction, and the strife that divideth and afflicteth the human race is daily increasing. The signs of impending convulsions and chaos can now be discerned, inasmuch as the prevailing order appeareth to be lamentably defective. I beseech God, exalted be His glory, that He may graciously awaken the peoples of the earth, may grant that the end of their conduct may be profitable unto them, and aid them to accomplish that which beseemeth their station.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 215-217

A good journey to Discovery takes a lot of time, effort, analyzing and thinking. When you come to Understand God and what God is really doing with people and this world, the view of it all changes. This world is not a mess. It is a Masterpiece. When you can honestly see and say that, I can say that you have lost the hate and are well on your way to true Understanding.

Who are you to speak for me? How dare you say I have hate? I have no hate. I just see the Reality all around me. I love humanity and I want to serve it. That is why I am a Baha’i. The world might have been a Masterpiece when it was created but it has been practically destroyed by the selfish desires of humanity.

“A tempest, unprecedented in its violence, unpredictable in its course, catastrophic in its immediate effects, unimaginably glorious in its ultimate consequences, is at present sweeping the face of the earth. Its driving power is remorselessly gaining in range and momentum. Its cleansing force, however much undetected, is increasing with every passing day. Humanity, gripped in the clutches of its devastating power, is smitten by the evidences of its resistless fury. It can neither perceive its origin, nor probe its significance, nor discern its outcome. Bewildered, agonized and helpless, it watches this great and mighty wind of God invading the remotest and fairest regions of the earth, rocking its foundations, deranging its equilibrium, sundering its nations, disrupting the homes of its peoples, wasting its cities, driving into exile its kings, pulling down its bulwarks, uprooting its institutions, dimming its light, and harrowing up the souls of its inhabitants.” The Promised Day Is Come, p. 3​

Nobody really understands what is happening in the world or why it is happening except the Baha’is, but at least most people understand that there are problems in the world and many people actually care and are trying to do something about these problems. By contrast, you are living in a fantasy that all is well. But that way you do not have to do anything about what is wrong in the world.

“Dear friends! The powerful operations of this titanic upheaval are comprehensible to none except such as have recognized the claims of both Bahá’u’lláh and the Báb. Their followers know full well whence it comes, and what it will ultimately lead to. Though ignorant of how far it will reach, they clearly recognize its genesis, are aware of its direction, acknowledge its necessity, observe confidently its mysterious processes, ardently pray for the mitigation of its severity, intelligently labor to assuage its fury, and anticipate, with undimmed vision, the consummation of the fears and the hopes it must necessarily engender.” The Promised Day Is Come, p. 4​

 

[Trailblazer]

My quote; It makes no sense that everyone decides for themselves what is right and wrong, what is moral and immoral.

Your Answer: Knowledge lives beyond the surface. Can you see beyond the surface? Example: You can look at a person and see a person, however what about DNA. What about the Spiritual side? How much do you miss with narrow vision?

If you truly understood God's system it would be clear everyone chooses for themselves. Hmmm? Maybe this is something you can work on. How does it fit that everyone decides for themselves? Oh yes, it's going to take some work. Remember how God thinks with the sex and interacting with others, Multiple Levels with Multiple Views. Yes, Pure Genius!

How long did birds fly before mankind figured out how? God hides nothing. In fact, I think it is pure Genius how God places the knowledge around us all waiting for us to Discover it.

So you see how humans interact in God’s Creation. That does not tell you anything about God. It tells you something about humans.

You did not answer my question. How will it work for everyone to decide for themselves what is right and wrong, what is moral and immoral?

It is not God’s system for everyone to choose for themselves. That is man’s system. God’s system has Laws. Sorry you don’t like the constraints but that is the way it has always been... God sets the standards for our moral behavior through the Messengers.

You can always tell when beliefs are coming from mankind when they tell you not to question or it's done a way cause God said so. This is not High Intelligence!!! This is not God!!

You can always tell that beliefs are coming from mankind when someone thinks they know more than the revealed Word of God.

God only says anything through the Messenger and that is God.

 

[Trailblazer]

There are no THRONES. This is part of mankind's petty value of ruling.

It is God ruling on the Throne, not mankind.
Those who choose not to be ruled will not enter the court of God's presence.
Note the word Inaccessible. That is why God sends Messengers, to make God Accessible.

“Give ear, O My servant, unto that which is being sent down unto thee from the Throne of thy Lord, the Inaccessible, the Most Great. There is none other God but Him. He hath called into being His creatures, that they may know Him, Who is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful. Unto the cities of all nations He hath sent His Messengers, Whom He hath commissioned to announce unto men tidings of the Paradise of His good pleasure, and to draw them nigh unto the Haven of abiding security, the Seat of eternal holiness and transcendent glory.

Some were guided by the Light of God, gained admittance into the court of His presence, and quaffed, from the hand of resignation, the waters of everlasting life, and were accounted of them that have truly recognized and believed in Him. Others rebelled against Him, and rejected the signs of God, the Most Powerful, the Almighty, the All-Wise.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 144-145​

 

[ecco]

If I follow your logic, then you do not really exist. I just believe someone responds to my comments. Do you see my problem? I could never say you do not exist no matter how others might insist you do not.

What?

 

[ecco]

What's with the red herring? Why can't you respond to what ecco said?ecco said:

"Talk about wearing blinders. The real truth is that gods are the creation of man's imaginings. You probably believe that to be be true for all gods except the one you "discovered". You don't see that you are no different from all the people who believe in any god.

Just look at the back and forth posts between you and another poster.
You're both asserting your beliefs are right and the other's are wrong.
You're both exactly the same."

Why doesn't ecco exist? Because he does not agree with your the god you think you have discovered, the god for which you have no evidence?

You do realize that my post was addressed to you as well, don't you?

 

[ecco]

By contrast, atheists are not lost because at least they know that they do not know anything about God. For atheists there is a chance that they can come to know God if they want to and if they have an open mind.

I did say I wasn't going to respond to any of your posts in this thread. However, the above is just utter, ignorant, BS for many reasons.

 

[Trailblazer]

You do realize that my post was addressed to you as well, don't you?

Yes I do, that was obvious.
I had no problem with what you said because it was true. We were both asserting our beliefs were right and the other's were wrong. In that sense we are both exactly the same.