Questions for Atheists and Agnostics

[Trailblazer]

You're so deep down the theistic rabbithole that you can't even see the plain contradictions in your own statements.

Go ahead and point out what you think is contradictory and I will demonstrate why it isn't.

 

[Bird123]

Religion was not invented by man. Religion is a revelation from God to man through Messengers (Prophets). Religion has always existed because God has sent Messengers since the dawn of human history.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81​

I do not make any rules for God, nor do you. God is the Ruler so God makes His own rules.

The Truth about God comes from God to man through Messengers of God. Anything else you think about God is just a figment of your imagination, a fantasy. I prefer to go with Reality, not fantasy.

Whatever man does in the name of religion cannot destroy the religion of God.

You are attempting to make rules for God. You list so many restrictions. You limit yourself in so many ways with these restrictions.

You might be convinced that God created religion in order to tell mankind how to live but nothing is further from the truth. God will never intimidate your choices, not even through a religion. That would hinder the system now in place. You do not have to worry about God's religion being destroyed. Do you know why? God has no religion!!!!

All the kiddies are equal regardless of their choices and actions. This includes famous people, poor people, assumed messengers, assumed prophets ,homeless people, drunks. prostitutes, and even your worst criminal.

God is Unconditional Love. When you find that does not match with your holy book, you have found mankind in your holy book.

So now, I'm having an imaginary fantasy. Isn't that what atheists are claiming you are having???? You know, there is a difference. I have never asked you to believe anything I have told you. Instead, I have pointed you in a direction by which you can discover the Truth and God for yourself. I think you have clearly made your choice to do nothing. Whether it's out of fear or laziness to do what it takes, it doesn't matter.

It's all OK! Like I said your journey has never depended on me. On the other hand, you have now had a glimpse of the Real Truth.

Now, you can recite beliefs I know are not true until the cows come home. I will never depend upon beliefs when the facts are at hand. One can never go back to being a caveman.

 

[Bear Wild]

Not for you, but there is a good reason for rational people to believe in God.
#19 Trailblazer

No, not says me, says a Messenger of God, which is the only way to know anything about God.

God is All-Powerful but God cannot show up in a material world in any way that you would recognize God, except in the “Person” of His Messenger... That is why God sends a Messenger, to prove he exists and convey a message...

God is not sadistic just because you do not get what you want. God is not obligated to give you anything, but God did send you a Messenger, and then you threw the Messenger back in God’s face... But God does not care because God does not need your belief, since God does not need anything from humans.

You should not trust me or believe me just because I said something makes sense to me. It needs to make sense to you, but in order for that to happen you have to use your own mind and think it through, question it. You have to look at the evidence and verify it for yourself. Nobody can do that for you.

 

[Bear Wild]

If you believe that god created our world then you only need to look at the creation to understand god. What god only communicates to certain people and to only a special group in time leaving out most of humans throughout history. That would seem to be a strange god indeed. And which god is correct since there have been so many gods not to mention goddesses that have been worshiped by humans. The one we each believe in always seems the most important. Maybe its time to see to respect the world we live in.

 

[1robin]

Sorry it has taken me so long to get back to this post. I have been writing it in a Word document off and on and I finally finished it and found time to post it.

Wow sounds like your way of posting would be a lot more work.

Believe me, it was not easy getting all that into one post!I had to pare it down several times before it was under the maximum length. Even though I eliminated a lot of this post, it was still too long for one post, so I am going to divide it into two posts.

I am surprised you would go through al that to begin with. Do you not know how we traditionally post here? If so I would be glad to help. Sounds like you are growing long way round the barn.

How do you think I can show that the overwhelmingly mainstream understanding of the bible for the past 2000 years is incorrect in one post? The best I can do is whack away at it, one idea at a time.

I didn't think could do so in a hundred posts but that is what you would have to show to carry your point.

It has nothing to do with capability. Just because God is “capable” of doing something does not mean God has to do it. That is illogical.

I think the God who would enter into our own suffering and show he is one of us and to give us the perfect example of conduct is greater than a God who stands aloof from our struggles and hardships and just yells down demands from on high. My God didn't talk about love he came down here and enacted his love.

But in a certain sense, God did walk the earth, since Jesus was a Manifestation of God, a perfect mirror image of God, just not the Essence of God in the flesh.

Well, if you admit this then your views are so close to mine that there is nothing left worth argument over.

Unfortunately, I do not know the Bible well enough to find the best verses that would say what I am trying to say. I only know a few verses I have collected. Let’s just take this one verse, which says exactly what I want to say, in all the translations below:

John 1:18

CEB No one has ever seen God. God the only Son, who is at the Father’s side, has made God known.

NASB No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

NCV No one has ever seen God. But God the only Son is very close to the Father, and he has shown us what God is like.

NKJV No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

NLV The much-loved Son is beside the Father. No man has ever seen God. But Christ has made God known to us.

RSV No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

WE No one has ever seen God. But his only Son is very near to his Father's heart. He has told us plainly about God.​

Jesus did all of the following: Made God known, explained God, showed us what God is like, declared God, made God known to us, told us plainly about God.

There are some other translations that say Jesus is God, but they make no sense:

NET No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known.

NIV No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

NLT No one has ever seen God. But the unique One, who is himself God, is near to the Father’s heart. He has revealed God to us. ​

We have seen Jesus so Jesus cannot be God.
How can God be in fellowship with Himself?
How can God be in a relationship with Himself?
How can God be near and dear to His own heart?

All you have to do is realize that God is one being composed of three persons.

If fact you could even argue that seeing Jesus is not to see God because his crude flesh was not his divine spirit (or essence). Thinking of things in this way is the only way your verses and my verses harmonize.

No, that verse does not say that the Fullness of God became flesh. It says that God was manifested in the flesh. The question we have to ask is: what was manifested?

The Christian equivalent to the Bahá'í concept of Manifestation is the concept of incarnation. The word to incarnate means 'to embody in flesh or 'to assume, or exist in, a bodily (esp. a human) form (Oxford English Dictionary). From a Bahá'í point of view, the important question regarding the subject of incarnation is, what does Jesus incarnate? Bahá'ís can certainly say that Jesus incarnated Gods attributes, in the sense that in Jesus, Gods attributes were perfectly reflected and expressed.[4] The Bahá'í scriptures, however, reject the belief that the ineffable essence of the Divinity was ever perfectly and completely contained in a single human body, because the Bahá'í scriptures emphasize the omnipresence and transcendence of the essence of God…..
Jesus Christ in the Bahá'í Writings​

I tell you what. I never agree with you Baha'i and I think you mangle everyone else's scriptures but every single one of you has been as polite as anyone could hope for. I believe that Jesus was 100% flesh and 100% spirit but I think that only his spiritual form is his divine essence.​

Mark 2:6-10 But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only? And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts? Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)

Yes this is a verse which both claims that only God can forgive sins and that Jesus forgave sins therefor Jesus was and is God.

Jesus did not say what is in Mark 2:7. The scribes said that. Then Jesus said in Mark 2:10 “But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,).” So Jesus was saying that He, the Son of man, had the power to forgive sins. That concurs exactly with what Baha’u’llah wrote. In the passage below Baha’u’llah is saying that God’s chosen ones (Manifestations of God) have the power to forgive sins. I post this again only because it is from the Bible and it is necessary for me to make my point.

Another example just like the first. Only God may forgive sins, Jesus forgave sins, therefor Jesus is God.

“It is also recorded in the Gospel according to St. Luke, that on a certain day Jesus passed by a Jew who was sick of the palsy, and lay upon a couch. When the Jew saw Him, he recognized Him, and cried out for His help. Jesus said unto him: “Arise from thy bed; thy sins are forgiven thee.” Certain of the Jews, standing by, protested saying: “Who can forgive sins, but God alone?” And immediately He perceived their thoughts, Jesus answering said unto them: “Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, arise, and take up thy bed, and walk; or to say, thy sins are forgiven thee? that ye may know that the Son of Man hath power on earth to forgive sins.”7 This is the real sovereignty, and such is the power of God’s chosen Ones!”

The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 133-134

Yes, this verse is showing the same thing. The scribes all question Jesus when he forgave sins because only God could do so but since the man was in fact forgiven his sins Jesus prevailed as he always does.​

Briefly, Jesus has a Soul and a Body. The Soul of Jesus can have always existed because it was in the spiritual world, which has always existed, since it is without beginning or end. But we know that the Body of Jesus was born of Mary so it cannot have always existed.

No Jesus the spirit existed for eternity. It was only once he manifested himself on earth that he was given a body. Also after he died and rose again was he given his perfect body which he will always have from that point only. Believe I understand this can get confusing. His being given a perfect body after resurrection is to point to the fact that all believers will also receive a perfect body once we resurrect. This is why Jesus was called the first fruits.

I do not know what you mean when you say that Jesus was a divine spirit clothed in flesh.

Since before time even began Christ existed as a spirit (no body) when he came to earth to perform his ministry he was given a body. After he died and was resurrected Jesus was given what is called a perfect spiritual body (a different body from his ministry) just as we will be given a perfect body when we resurrect.

That is absolutely true. Jesus was able to perform miracles because He had the Power of God. Baha’u’llah also performed miracles because He had the Power of God. Angels can perform miracles because they have the Power of God.

Jesus did not always do miracles in the fathers name, in many cases he did them in his own name, that is why the Pharisees kept getting so bent out of shape with him.

(Continued on next post...)

 

[1robin]

As I pointed out above, the Bible says different things in different translations, so what are we to do?

If you look up the term proper biblical exegesis you will find all manner at arriving at reliable biblical truths even where translations may differ somewhat. Starting with going back to the original Hebrew, Aramaic, or koine Greek.

No, God is not composed of three divine persons; God is One. The Trinity is not in the Bible. You well know that not all Christians believe in the Trinity and they are all reading the same Bible. How do you explain that?

Pay close attention because countless biblical confusions are cleared up by the following.

God is ONE being composed of 3 persons (father, son, spirit). Once you get that nailed out all manner of problems disappear.

I am going to have to divide this up here for a bit. Give me a few days to reply to the rest before you respond again if that is ok with you.

 

[Trailblazer]

You are attempting to make rules for God. You list so many restrictions. You limit yourself in so many ways with these restrictions.

I do not make any rules for God. As I said, God is the Ruler so God makes the Rules for all of humanity.

The Truth about God comes from God to man through Messengers of God. That is not making rules. That is just explaining how we can know the Truth about God. God reveals the Rules to the Messengers, the Messengers reveal the Rules to us, and we are enjoined to follow the Rules.

By contrast, everything you said below is some Rule you set for God, something about God you think you know.

Look at all the things you say you know about God, the Rules you set for God. How do you think you know these things?

You said: You might be convinced that God created religion in order to tell mankind how to live but nothing is further from the truth. God will never intimidate your choices, not even through a religion. That would hinder the system now in place. You do not have to worry about God's religion being destroyed. Do you know why? God has no religion!!!!‘

All the kiddies are equal regardless of their choices and actions. This includes famous people, poor people, assumed messengers, assumed prophets ,homeless people, drunks. prostitutes, and even your worst criminal.

God is Unconditional Love. When you find that does not match with your holy book, you have found mankind in your holy book.
​

Everything you think you know about God comes from yourself alone. Who are you to think you know what God’s rules are? What are your credentials? You have no credentials, as do the Messengers of God. When did you sacrifice and suffer for the sake God and humanity, like Jesus and Baha’u’llah did? When did complete your mission for God? Where are your scriptures?

You are wrong about God, so wrong. God loves everyone but everyone is not equal in the sight of God, whether they are good or evil. Your message appears to be that man bears no responsibility for his actions and that regardless of his actions everyone is assured of the same exact treatment from God. What if a person commits a mass murder? Is he the same as a Mother Teresa who expended herself in serving the needs of mankind as a demonstration of her love of God? What you say is completely unjust and irrational.

So now, I'm having an imaginary fantasy. Isn't that what atheists are claiming you are having???? You know, there is a difference. I have never asked you to believe anything I have told you.

Read everything I have said carefully. I have never asked anyone to believe what I believe. I just state what I believe. By contrast, you are trying to convince people to Discover God for themselves. You are telling people to believe that they can Discover God by themselves.

Instead, I have pointed you in a direction by which you can discover the Truth and God for yourself. I think you have clearly made your choice to do nothing. Whether it's out of fear or laziness to do what it takes, it doesn't matter.

Nobody can Discover the Truth and God by themselves. That is beyond arrogant.

You are trying to point me in a direction; that is what Prophets do. You are behaving as though you are a Prophet of God, as if you know God’s Will for humanity. You don’t.

You are not pointing me in a direction. You are telling me that I have to do it your way, Discover God by myself. You are telling me I am doing nothing because I do not doing it your way.

It's all OK! Like I said your journey has never depended on me. On the other hand, you have now had a glimpse of the Real Truth.

I know that Real Truth because it was revealed by Baha’u’llah.
What you have is what you imagine to be the truth.

Now, you can recite beliefs I know are not true until the cows come home. I will never depend upon beliefs when the facts are at hand. One can never go back to being a caveman.

Who cares is you know my beliefs are true? They are either true or false. You have no facts about God.

 

[Trailblazer]

If you believe that god created our world then you only need to look at the creation to understand god. What god only communicates to certain people and to only a special group in time leaving out most of humans throughout history. That would seem to be a strange god indeed. And which god is correct since there have been so many gods not to mention goddesses that have been worshiped by humans. The one we each believe in always seems the most important. Maybe its time to see to respect the world we live in.

Indeed, we can understand something about God from looking at God's Creation but that is a very indirect way of learning about God and it is subject to error, because everyone perceives the Creation differently. Some people look at all the bad things and interpret that as a bad God, some look at only the good and see only a good God.

The reason we need Messengers of God is so we can get more direct information about God and God's will for any given age in history. Scriptures are revealed and everyone can read the same scriptures. Nobody is left out. Moreover, people can get together and read and discuss the meanings of the scriptures. No man is an island. Religion brings people together for the common good.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I tell you what. I never agree with you Baha'i and I think you mangle everyone else's scriptures but every single one of you has been as polite as anyone could hope for. I believe that Jesus was 100% flesh and 100% spirit but I think that only his spiritual form is his divine essence.

Which we can consider why Jesus has said, it is the Spirt that gives life, the flesh amounts to not a thing.

Regards Tony

 

[1robin]

I cannot disagree with that. Jesus the Son had a divine nature. But that is not the same thing as saying Jesus was God, or that God became Jesus in the flesh. God’s Attributes were perfectly manifested in Jesus, but God’s Essence cannot be manifested to anyone, not even to Jesus. It forever remains hidden from anyone except God. Thus God is separate from Jesus because God is forever one and alone, sanctified above corporeal existence, although God is one with Jesus because both share the same Spirit.

Please skip to the bottom of the post before responding if you would.

I thought that you already agreed that we had seen God on earth in Christ Jesus, your trying to walk a fine line. If Jesus had all of God's attributes then he lacks nothing to make him God.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

This is actually a trigonometric axiom. If A is equal to B and C is equal to B then by definition and inescapably A is equal to C. In fact it makes all three coequal. The father, the sun, and the spirit.

Then in John 10:36-37, Jesus says “Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.”

This scripture is off topic. Here John is saying that anyone claims to be sent from the father but does not do the fathers will he is mistaken. Regardless it is clear Jesus perfectly reflected the will of the father but this is another subject.

Jesus is desperately trying to convince the Jews that He is not claiming to be God; He says He is the Son of God.

And he also says he who has seen the son has seen the father.

Jesus manifested God and Jesus was also a Mediator between God and man, as is expressed in this verse:

Yes Jesus had several unique rolls, in fact all three members of the trinity have different rolls but are the same essence. Don't you see how the trinity harmonizes all the verses your worldview sets at odds. If you deny the trinity the bible isn't self consistent.

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Notice that the verse says “and” which is differentiating God from Jesus.

But it is not distinguishing between beings but between rolls. The roll of the father I snot to mediate it is Christ's. One being two rolls.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

New International Version
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

See what harmony is there if you have my word view?

God became flesh and dwelt amongst us.​

Your worldview creates discord amongst those verses.

Then when God sent Jesus, Jesus was “manifested” in the flesh, and the Word that was God and was with God became flesh and dwelt among us. That does not mean that God became flesh, but rather that the Attributes of God were manifested in Jesus who came in the flesh and revealed God to humanity.

1. The word is God
2. The word (God) cam to earth in the flesh.
3. Jesus was that word (God)
Perfect consistency.

As Abdu’l-Baha wrote: “For the Word does not signify the body of Christ, no, but the divine perfections manifested in Him.” Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 206

Jesus was the perfect revelation of God in the flesh because he who has seen Jesus in the flesh has seen the all the Attributes of the Father. As Baha’u’llah wrote:

“Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world.......” Gleanings, p. 54​

But nobody has ever seen the Essence of the Father, which is why Jesus could not be FULLY GOD. That is why Jesus said: John 1:18 “No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.” Jesus meant that no man has seen the Essence of God because God cannot incarnate His Essence and reveal it to man, which is what Baha’u’llah also said in this passage;

“Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived.” Gleanings, p. 49​

I think I covered that point above. In brief, God manifested His Attributes on earth in Jesus, but the Essence of God did not become flesh.

I think I touched on that above but we can go over that more later if you want to.

If I quote the Baha’i Writings, that is just to explain what I believe about the subject at hand. I will try to make any quotes brief.

I think I explained that above. Let me know if you have any questions.

I am not dismissing your Baha'i writings. It is just that over many debates with Baha'i I came to see how flawed I consider then to be. They just hold no persuasive power over me so please forgive me. If you want to show me that God never dwelled with us if the flesh your going to have to do so by using the bible. Sorry. Like other Baha'i, if you have anything to say you have a lot to say but when you say that much it is hard to do justice to any one part of it.

Lets take one verse and see what we each thing about it then we can move on to another, and so forth.

Remember the debate is whether God came to earth and dwelt with us. My opening verses is the following:

New International Version
"The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" (which means "God with us").

 

[1robin]

Which we can consider why Jesus has said, it is the Spirt that gives life, the flesh amounts to not a thing.

Regards Tony

It is hard to say on this one.

1. The flesh definitely ends up on the refuse pile of this life.

But

2. What we do in the flesh echo's for us and others throughout time from now onward.
3. We (like) Christ will be given a perfect body if we are resurrected into heaven.

So I am not sure it is a black and white issue.

Did you know that up to this moment Christ is the only person to have ever been given a perfect resurrected body? The first of many. That is why he is called the first fruits. But I do get what your driving at.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It is hard to say on this one.

1. The flesh definitely ends up on the refuse pile of this life.

But

2. What we do in the flesh echo's for us and others throughout time from now onward.
3. We (like) Christ will be given a perfect body if we are resurrected into heaven.

So I am not sure it is a black and white issue.

Did you know that up to this moment Christ is the only person to have ever been given a perfect resurrected body? The first of many. That is why he is called the first fruits. But I do get what your driving at.

Life in the Spirit is what we are called to.

That is what it means to be born again in this life. That is give up of ones own free will and serve Christ by serving all humanity. Death can not overtake one who lives life this way.

Christ has appeared on this earth from the beginning that has no beginning until the end that has no end.

Regards Tony

 

[1robin]

Life in the Spirit is what we are called to.

I agree that compared with each other that the spirit is much more important than the flesh but that does not necessary make the flesh worthless.

That is what it means to be born again in this life. That is give up of ones own free will and serve Christ by serving all humanity. Death can not overtake one who lives life this way.

I am pretty much on board with what your saying here.

Christ has appeared on this earth from the beginning that has no beginning until the end that has no end.

Here I have to disagree. Time as we know it is called an unbounded finite. This means that it had a beginning but has no end. It is confusing to think about but time began at zero and will always be increasing but never infinite.

Regards Tony

Keep in mind that my comments about time concern the definition of time as men know it. God is completely independent of time as we understand it.[/QUOTE]

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Here I have to disagree. Time as we know it is called an unbounded finite. This means that it had a beginning but has no end. It is confusing to think about but time began at zero and will always be increasing but never infinite.

You would be saying that there was a creater, God and no Creation. How can we say this?

Regards Tony

 

[1robin]

You would be saying that there was a creater, God and no Creation. How can we say this?

Regards Tony

We can say this because God is an intentional agent that can choose to act at any particular point he chose. Look up volition.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

We can say this because God is an intentional agent that can choose to act at any particular point he chose. Look up volition.

I would see that as a limitation imposed upon the mind of men, I take my ideas from this quote;

"..As to thy question concerning the origin of creation. Know assuredly that God’s creation hath existed from eternity, and will continue to exist forever. Its beginning hath had no beginning, and its end knoweth no end. His name, the Creator, presupposeth a creation, even as His title, the Lord of Men, must involve the existence of a servant..."

One could say Jesus the Christ was without a Creation until the first to believe in Him, John the Baptist, submitted to His will and a New Heaven and a New Earth was manifested.

Our mind is limited to what is from God, God has many worlds and peoples and they are beyond our computation in number and age, even if we think we can give it a number.

Regards Tony

 

[Bird123]

I do not make any rules for God. As I said, God is the Ruler so God makes the Rules for all of humanity.

The Truth about God comes from God to man through Messengers of God. That is not making rules. That is just explaining how we can know the Truth about God. God reveals the Rules to the Messengers, the Messengers reveal the Rules to us, and we are enjoined to follow the Rules.

By contrast, everything you said below is some Rule you set for God, something about God you think you know.

Look at all the things you say you know about God, the Rules you set for God. How do you think you know these things?

You said: You might be convinced that God created religion in order to tell mankind how to live but nothing is further from the truth. God will never intimidate your choices, not even through a religion. That would hinder the system now in place. You do not have to worry about God's religion being destroyed. Do you know why? God has no religion!!!!‘

All the kiddies are equal regardless of their choices and actions. This includes famous people, poor people, assumed messengers, assumed prophets ,homeless people, drunks. prostitutes, and even your worst criminal.

God is Unconditional Love. When you find that does not match with your holy book, you have found mankind in your holy book.
​

Everything you think you know about God comes from yourself alone. Who are you to think you know what God’s rules are? What are your credentials? You have no credentials, as do the Messengers of God. When did you sacrifice and suffer for the sake God and humanity, like Jesus and Baha’u’llah did? When did complete your mission for God? Where are your scriptures?

You are wrong about God, so wrong. God loves everyone but everyone is not equal in the sight of God, whether they are good or evil. Your message appears to be that man bears no responsibility for his actions and that regardless of his actions everyone is assured of the same exact treatment from God. What if a person commits a mass murder? Is he the same as a Mother Teresa who expended herself in serving the needs of mankind as a demonstration of her love of God? What you say is completely unjust and irrational.

Read everything I have said carefully. I have never asked anyone to believe what I believe. I just state what I believe. By contrast, you are trying to convince people to Discover God for themselves. You are telling people to believe that they can Discover God by themselves.

Nobody can Discover the Truth and God by themselves. That is beyond arrogant.

You are trying to point me in a direction; that is what Prophets do. You are behaving as though you are a Prophet of God, as if you know God’s Will for humanity. You don’t.

You are not pointing me in a direction. You are telling me that I have to do it your way, Discover God by myself. You are telling me I am doing nothing because I do not doing it your way.

I know that Real Truth because it was revealed by Baha’u’llah.
What you have is what you imagine to be the truth.

Who cares is you know my beliefs are true? They are either true or false. You have no facts about God.

Your quote: Who are you to think you know what God’s rules are? My Answer: God has no rules.

Your quote:What are your credentials? You have no credentials, as do the Messengers of God. My Answer: Everyone is equal. Anyone can speak truth. There are no credentials other than the labels mankind attempts to value and place on people.

Your quote:When did you sacrifice and suffer for the sake God and humanity, like Jesus and Baha’u’llah did? When did complete your mission for God? Where are your scriptures? My Answer: Did these people really suffer for God and humanity? How much of the real truth do you omit out of a narrow vision of the whole truth? Why do you think I have a need for a holy book written by mankind? If all the holy books disappeared tomorrow, the world would go on. God has no need for holy books. Why should I.

your quote:God loves everyone but everyone is not equal in the sight of God, My answer: What is more important? Revenge, hate, condemning, punishing or Fixing the Real Problem? Do you fry your child or Fix them? Do you love one child over another simply because one makes a few bad choices? Aren't you really defending so many of the petty things religion is teaching people to value? Don't these petty things in the end translate into hate?

I hear religions saying for God for God, that's what God wants. Don't you realize God is Unconditional Love? Unconditional Love always does what is Best for the other. Think! This world is not for God. It is for US. WE are not doing for God. God is doing for Us.

Your quote:You are telling people to believe that they can Discover God by themselves. My Answer. I'm not telling anyone to believe anything. On the other hand, when the wright brothers flew the first plane, it became so much easier for everyone else simply because they knew it was possible. Look what followed.

Your quote:You are not pointing me in a direction. You are telling me that I have to do it your way.
My Answer: Your journey has never depended on me. Sound familiar? Everyone's free choice is very important. I will not make your choices for you nor will I ever make demands. Be Free!!

 

[1robin]

I would see that as a limitation imposed upon the mind of men, I take my ideas from this quote;

"..As to thy question concerning the origin of creation. Know assuredly that God’s creation hath existed from eternity, and will continue to exist forever. Its beginning hath had no beginning, and its end knoweth no end. His name, the Creator, presupposeth a creation, even as His title, the Lord of Men, must involve the existence of a servant..."

One could say Jesus the Christ was without a Creation until the first to believe in Him, John the Baptist, submitted to His will and a New Heaven and a New Earth was manifested.

Our mind is limited to what is from God, God has many worlds and peoples and they are beyond our computation in number and age, even if we think we can give it a number.

Regards Tony

There is a lot of information concerning creation and the nature of the universe. Before I start down what will inevitably be a long road (or discussion) let me make sure I understand what your positions are.

Please tell me what you believe concerning the following.

1. Do you believe God is independent of time or dependent on it?

2. Do you believe the universe is infinitely old or do you believe it was brought into existence a finite time ago?

3. Do you believe that at any moment God can choose to act or is he being controlled by something else which prevents his choosing to act?

4. Do you believe that science points to a universe which began to exist a finite time ago or one that has just always been here?

I believe we may be talking past each other and if we think about it we may agree more than we don't. Once I figure out more about your worldview I can contrast and compare it with mine and see who has it right or wrong. For this reply alone please keep your response brief and to the point to save time later on.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

There is a lot of information concerning creation and the nature of the universe. Before I start down what will inevitably be a long road (or discussion) let me make sure I understand what your positions are.

Please tell me what you believe concerning the following.

1. Do you believe God is independent of time or dependent on it?

2. Do you believe the universe is infinitely old or do you believe it was brought into existence a finite time ago?

3. Do you believe that at any moment God can choose to act or is he being controlled by something else which prevents his choosing to act?

4. Do you believe that science points to a universe which began to exist a finite time ago or one that has just always been here?

I believe we may be talking past each other and if we think about it we may agree more than we don't. Once I figure out more about your worldview I can contrast and compare it with mine and see who has it right or wrong. For this reply alone please keep your response brief and to the point to save time later on.

1) independant
2) Infinity old
3) God doeth as He Willeth
4) Science is still working on it, thus I would go fo infinate science.

Are you aware of an old tradition?

"...Consider the following well-known tradition and examine its meanings indicative of the vastness of the cosmos and its awesome limitless expanse: 'God, exalted be He, fashioned one hundred thousand, thousand lamps and suspended the Throne, the earth, the heavens and whatsoever is between them, even Heaven and Hell -- all of these in a single lamp. And only God knows what is in the rest of the lamps......"

Regards Tony

 

[1robin]

1) independent

Ok, see we agree here.

2) Infinity old

Ok here we disagree and I will cover this at the end of the post.

3) God doeth as He Willeth

Here we agree again but it doesn't sound like you agree with your self. You previously seemed to suggest God could not chose to make a universe at some point in the past.

4) Science is still working on it, thus I would go fo infinate science.

You are right that science is still working on it but all the evidence so far is for a finite universe. I will touch on this below as well.

Are you aware of an old tradition?

"...Consider the following well-known tradition and examine its meanings indicative of the vastness of the cosmos and its awesome limitless expanse: 'God, exalted be He, fashioned one hundred thousand, thousand lamps and suspended the Throne, the earth, the heavens and whatsoever is between them, even Heaven and Hell -- all of these in a single lamp. And only God knows what is in the rest of the lamps......"

Regards Tony

This may well be a quaint saying but saying something is true because it is quaint is a classic genetic fallacy.

Regardless lets get into the two areas where we disagree.

1. You think the universe in infinitely old.
2. And you think science supports this conclusion.

There is nothing in the bible that suggests the universe is infinitely old, it in fact suggests the opposite (creation ex nihilo to be exact) so the only thing we don't know I what science says about the age of the
universe.

The two most prominent cosmological model is the Big Bang Theory (Georges Henri Joseph Édouard Lemaître) and the Borde, Guth, Velin model. We all know that something banging into existence isn't infinitely old but what about the much more modern BGVM. Let me quote Alexander Vilenkin on the subject.

Vilenkin’s verdict: “All the evidence we have says that the universe had a beginning.”
Vilenkin's verdict: "All the evidence we have says that the universe had a beginning."



We can also quote boring old Hawking on the subject though I believe God (not gravity) was the cause. "Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing,"
Stephen Hawking says universe not created by God

So that is three of the greatest cosmologists in human history all claiming the universe began a finite time ago. That should be enough to get our foot in the door.

You do realize that Genesis 1 states that God created the universe: 1 In the beginning (when), God (who)created the heavens and the earth (what).

In the beginning God created the universe. Neither the bible nor science suggests the universe is infinitely old why are you suggesting otherwise?