Questions for Atheists and Agnostics

[Bird123]

I agree that making mistakes is part of the plan for learning. I made a pretty big mistake today and it could have been a great tragedy. Luckily, after two hours of prayers, it turned out okay, but I cannot even imagine if it hadn't. From now on I will be checking to make sure the front door is closed every time I go out and I will be really careful to never leave it open for one split second... Live and learn.

I do not need a book to tell me what is just common sense, but I like having a book to tell me what I should be seeking to acquire by way of spiritual attributes, since that is all I will be taking with me to the spiritual world after I die. I never would have thought certain things are important as they are had I not read them in the Baha'i Writings. Now I diligently aim for these high ideals. I see them simply as a Guide to right living. It is really no different from what is in the Bible although the Bahai Writings are more straightforward and easier to understand.

It would not be any different from the Writings of Baha'u'llah since God did write those.

“Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world....... in moments in which these Essences of Being were deep immersed beneath the oceans of ancient and everlasting holiness, or when they soared to the loftiest summits of Divine mysteries, they claimed their utterances to be the Voice of Divinity, the Call of God Himself.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 54-55​

God did not write anything. There is no need.

Question? What happens to those who do not follow? Is it just like the bible and they go to Hell?

Since there is some goodness in all holy books, it's ok to read them. On the other hand, be very careful you are not being led indirectly to hating others through your learned judgment of others.

Since mankind wrote all holy books, they incorporate mankind's value of so many petty things that will lead away from God. Still, everyone is free to choose the lessons they want or need to learn. Lessons will arrive regardless of any beliefs.

 

[Trailblazer]

If a singular god existed, it would either desire everyone's worship and therefore be imperfect by virtue of simply having "wants." Or, it would not care if we worshiped it, thus meaning that there is no point in doing so.

God desires us to worship Him for our own sakes, not because He needs our worship. God does not need anything. The point in worshiping God is that it profits us to do so.

“Consider the mercy of God and His gifts. He enjoineth upon you that which shall profit you, though He Himself can well dispense with all creatures.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 140​

If it wanted everyone to believe it in, but couldn't force it, then it was not all-powerful and does not deserve my worship.

God wants everyone to believe in Him, but God does not need anyone to believe in Him. God has the power to force everyone to believe in Him, but God never forces people to believe in Him. God only wants belief from those who freely choose to believe in Him.

If it could make everyone worship it and chose not to, then it is sadistic and not worth my worship.

No, God is not obligated to make everyone worship Him. God wants that to be a choice and that is why we all have free will.

If it just sorta half-assedly attempts to convince people to worship it via cryptic writings that get corrupted by humans over the centuries, then it's pretty bad at its job.

An All-Knowing, All-Wise, Infallible God cannot be bad at its job. Any other kind of god is an imaginary god.

It is the humans that corrupted the writings, not God... So who is responsible for doing that?

God is not bad at His job because when He revealed the Writings they were in pristine condition. They got corrupted by human meddling over the years. That is why Baha’u’llah enjoined us to turn towards Him, because His Writings are still pristine.

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 171-172​

No, because if it existed and IF it could manifest, it would have done so.

God did manifest, when He sent Baha’u’llah.

“Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world....... in moments in which these Essences of Being were deep immersed beneath the oceans of ancient and everlasting holiness, or when they soared to the loftiest summits of Divine mysteries, they claimed their utterances to be the Voice of Divinity, the Call of God Himself.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 54-55​

 

[Trailblazer]

Question? What happens to those who do not follow? Is it just like the bible and they go to Hell?

That is a difficult question to answer because nobody knows what happens after we die. It is a Baha’i belief that heaven is nearness to God and hell is distance from God. One has to know God to be near to Him, and the only way we can know God is through the Manifestation of God, Baha’u’llah in this day. Those who know God through Jesus or another Manifestation can also be close to God.

Some people think they know God but really don’t know God; it is a God of their imagination. I cannot say what will happen to them in the afterlife. Doing good deeds, in other words living to the best of our ability a noble life and doing unto others as we would be done by, is also very important. People who did not know God in this world but were sincere and had a pure heart can come close to God in the afterlife, if they are open to learning from the Angels.

Since there is some goodness in all holy books, it's ok to read them. On the other hand, be very careful you are not being led indirectly to hating others through your learned judgment of others.

I do not know any holy books that teach people to hate. The primary message of Jesus was Love and Baha’u’llah reiterated that message.

“The Great Being saith: O ye children of men! The fundamental purpose animating the Faith of God and His Religion is to safeguard the interests and promote the unity of the human race, and to foster the spirit of love and fellowship amongst men. Suffer it not to become a source of dissension and discord, of hate and enmity. This is the straight Path, the fixed and immovable foundation. Whatsoever is raised on this foundation, the changes and chances of the world can never impair its strength, nor will the revolution of countless centuries undermine its structure.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 215​

I do not know any holy books that teach us to judge. Jesus said to judge not lest ye be judged and Baha’u’llah wrote something similar.

Since mankind wrote all holy books, they incorporate mankind's value of so many petty things that will lead away from God. Still, everyone is free to choose the lessons they want or need to learn. Lessons will arrive regardless of any beliefs.

The Bible is holy because it was inspired by God, although it was written by men. The Writings of Baha’u’llah are holy because they were revealed by God to Baha’u’llah, who wrote them in His Own Pen.

I do not know what you mean by petty things and why you think they lead away from God. Are you talking about specific teachings and laws?

 

[Bird123]

That is a difficult question to answer because nobody knows what happens after we die. It is a Baha’i belief that heaven is nearness to God and hell is distance from God. One has to know God to be near to Him, and the only way we can know God is through the Manifestation of God, Baha’u’llah in this day. Those who know God through Jesus or another Manifestation can also be close to God.

Some people think they know God but really don’t know God; it is a God of their imagination. I cannot say what will happen to them in the afterlife. Doing good deeds, in other words living to the best of our ability a noble life and doing unto others as we would be done by, is also very important. People who did not know God in this world but were sincere and had a pure heart can come close to God in the afterlife, if they are open to learning from the Angels.

I do not know any holy books that teach people to hate. The primary message of Jesus was Love and Baha’u’llah reiterated that message.

“The Great Being saith: O ye children of men! The fundamental purpose animating the Faith of God and His Religion is to safeguard the interests and promote the unity of the human race, and to foster the spirit of love and fellowship amongst men. Suffer it not to become a source of dissension and discord, of hate and enmity. This is the straight Path, the fixed and immovable foundation. Whatsoever is raised on this foundation, the changes and chances of the world can never impair its strength, nor will the revolution of countless centuries undermine its structure.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 215​

I do not know any holy books that teach us to judge. Jesus said to judge not lest ye be judged and Baha’u’llah wrote something similar.

The Bible is holy because it was inspired by God, although it was written by men. The Writings of Baha’u’llah are holy because they were revealed by God to Baha’u’llah, who wrote them in His Own Pen.

I do not know what you mean by petty things and why you think they lead away from God. Are you talking about specific teachings and laws?

Petty things?

Your book teaches some are closer to God than others, when we are all the same. We all already know God.

Religions coerce people to gain followers through the threat of Hell.

Religion creates a we and they thereby convincing people they are better than others.

Religion teaches condemning and judging even though they say do not. Condemning, judging and Hell are the basics.

Religion, just as in your case values the ruling and controlling of others This is not God.

How many people have been hurt by religion when they were not followers? How many have been told they are going to Hell or are the Devil? I can't count how many people I have had to bring back to reality as a result when they thought God did not love them.

Religion teaches people they are flawed from birth. Nothing is further from the truth. God does not make flawed people. I have had to help many really wonderful people who thought they were going to Hell because they did not feel they were quite good enough.

Religion tells people you can't get to God except through them. What a business model. Do they really have a monopoly on God? These are all lies just to get and keep followers.

Religion convinces people to value beliefs about all else. This prevents people from Discovering the real truth on their own.

Religion teaches people it is important to always be right. Fight change once beliefs are accepted. Further, expand these values by getting converts. Is this really a mission from God or religion.

I have found religion does not correct for errors. God inspired us so we can't be wrong. This single fact is why science will Discover God before religion will. This will also make religion obsolete after intelligence levels rise over time through advancement in knowledge. Religion will have to change or become obsolete.

Religions will all tell you that their holy book was inspired by God. What would you expect them to say? It is clear by reading them those holy books do not come from God, even yours says not to question. This is not God.

If you can not find anything petty incorporated within religion, you do not understand those petty things in the first place.

If you can not find anything wrong with anything within your holy book, that means you have accepted it blindly because you no longer question anything in it.

AS I see it, God is much more than the sum of all the holy books put together. If you are really going to Discover, you must explore outside religion's influence and realm.

You might not realize this but reality is so much better than the manipulations and stories of those holy books. God's system does not need them.

Religion is a catalyst which brings so many of mankind's problems to the surface so they can be dealt with. After all, when you think you have God's backing, you will hold nothing back.

There are some good things in holy books concerning Unconditional Love. Better use a good screening filter because I have found their God is far from Unconditional.

 

[Trailblazer]

Petty things?

Your book teaches some are closer to God than others, when we are all the same. We all already know God.

No, you are wrong about that. Not everyone knows God and not all people are close to God. Some people are far from God and some people are closer to God than other people. We are not all the same.

Religions coerce people to gain followers through the threat of Hell.

Not all religions do this. Only some sects of Christianity do this.

Religion creates a we and they thereby convincing people they are better than others.

Religions do not do this. Some religious followers do this. You cannot blame the religion for what its followers do.

Religion teaches condemning and judging even though they say do not. Condemning, judging and Hell are the basics.

Religion absolutely does not teach that. Some religious followers do this. You cannot blame the religion for what its followers do.

Religion, just as in your case values the ruling and controlling of others This is not God.

Religion absolutely does not teach that. Some religious followers do this. You cannot blame the religion for what its followers do.

God is the Ruler, but God does not control anyone. We all have free will and we control ourselves.

How many people have been hurt by religion when they were not followers? How many have been told they are going to Hell or are the Devil? I can't count how many people I have had to bring back to reality as a result when they thought God did not love them.

Nobody is hurt by the religion. They are hurt by the religious followers. You cannot justly blame the religion for what its followers do.

Religion teaches people they are flawed from birth. Nothing is further from the truth. God does not make flawed people. I have had to help many really wonderful people who thought they were going to Hell because they did not feel they were quite good enough.

You said “religion teaches” but you are talking about what Christianity teaches. To say that all religions are like Christianity is the Fallacy of Hasty Generalization.

The Baha’i Faith does not teach Original Sin. We believe all humans are born good, with the propensity to do either good or evil, because we all have a higher noble spiritual nature and a lower selfish material nature.

Religion tells people you can't get to God except through them. What a business model. Do they really have a monopoly on God? These are all lies just to get and keep followers.

You cannot know God except through the Messengers of God. Anything else you imagine about God is imaginary, not Real. Truth only comes through Messengers of God and they establish religions.

Religion convinces people to value beliefs about all else. This prevents people from Discovering the real truth on their own.

Nobody can discover God without religion because God only reveals Himself through Messengers who establish religions. The Real Truth only comes through Messengers of God. There is no other way to know anything about God. Anything else you imagine about God is just what you imagine to be Truth.

Religion teaches people it is important to always be right. Fight change once beliefs are accepted. Further, expand these values by getting converts. Is this really a mission from God or religion.

Religion does not teach people it is important to always be right. That is absolutely false.

Religion does not teach people to fight change once beliefs are accepted. That is absolutely false.

I have found religion does not correct for errors. God inspired us so we can't be wrong. This single fact is why science will Discover God before religion will. This will also make religion obsolete after intelligence levels rise over time through advancement in knowledge. Religion will have to change or become obsolete.

Messengers of God do not make errors because they are infallible. Humans make errors because human are fallible.

Science is never going to discover God. Nothing could be more outrageous than that, nothing. God dwells in His inaccessible habitation of holiness and glory, and will unto everlasting continue to be enthroned upon the heights of His independent sovereignty and grandeur. God will never be discovered by anyone.

Religion will never become obsolete. Religion has existed since the dawn of human history and it will continue to exist as long as humans exist. Religion is the only reason humanity is able to exist.

Religions will all tell you that their holy book was inspired by God. What would you expect them to say? It is clear by reading them those holy books do not come from God, even yours says not to question. This is not God.

It is clear that the holy books come from God, to anyone who has eyes to see and ears to hear. Nothing you say comes from God because you have no way to know anything about God.

No holy books say we are not supposed to question. You say that.

If you can not find anything petty incorporated within religion, you do not understand those petty things in the first place.

I do not decide what is petty and not because I do not know as much as God. Apparently you think you do.

If you can not find anything wrong with anything within your holy book, that means you have accepted it blindly because you no longer question anything in it.

No, it does not mean that. It means that I do not think I know more than the infallible Messenger of God who was responsible for the holy book, because I am not arrogant.

AS I see it, God is much more than the sum of all the holy books put together. If you are really going to Discover, you must explore outside religion's influence and realm.

Of course God is more than the sum of the holy books because God does not reveal everything to the Messengers, but you do not know more than those holy books because you have NO WAY to know anything about God except from the holy books.

You might not realize this but reality is so much better than the manipulations and stories of those holy books. God's system does not need them.

You do not know anything about Reality. Reality is revealed in the holy books. You know nothing about God’s system. That is revealed in the holy books and that is the only place it is revealed.

Religion is a catalyst which brings so many of mankind's problems to the surface so they can be dealt with. After all, when you think you have God's backing, you will hold nothing back.

Religion has the answers to mankind’s problems and the answers are revealed in the holy books in every age. Humans then use the holy books to guide them to solve their own problems.

There are some good things in holy books concerning Unconditional Love. Better use a good screening filter because I have found their God is far from Unconditional.

God’s Love is unconditional but God is a lot more than Love. God is many things, things you will never know since you shun the only source of that knowledge, the holy books.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Religions do not do this. Some religious followers do this. You cannot blame the religion for what its followers do.

I not only blame religions for what their followers do; I define religions by what their followers believe, say, and do.

A religion is a community of shared belief and practice. Baha’u’llah hasn’t been part of your community since 1892. The only reason he’s still a key part of your religion is because Baha’is chose to preserve and pass on his teachings; this is part of “what Baha’is do.”

If Baha’is choose, in the name of their faith, to adopt beliefs and practices that go against what Baha’u’llah taught, then these beliefs and practices will become part of the Baha’i religion.

 

[Trailblazer]

I not only blame religions for what their followers do; I define religions by what their followers believe, say, and do.

Then it is no wonder you might have “issues” with religion, aside from the fact that you do not believe in God or Messengers of God.

I do not define religion that way. Here is my definition of religion:

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81​

A religion is a community of shared belief and practice. Baha’u’llah hasn’t been part of your community since 1892. The only reason he’s still a key part of your religion is because Baha’is chose to preserve and pass on his teachings; this is part of “what Baha’is do.”

What you described is what I would call the “organized religion.” The Baha’i community is to the Baha’i Faith as the Christian Church is to Christianity, a group of people who believe in the Founder of their faith, Baha’u’llah or Jesus.

But neither one is representative of “the religion” as it was originally revealed in scriptures. They are the “followers” of the scriptures they believe in, which is what I consider the religion itself. The New Testament represents Christianity just as the Writings of Baha’u’llah represent the Baha’i Faith.

If Baha’is choose, in the name of their faith, to adopt beliefs and practices that go against what Baha’u’llah taught, then these beliefs and practices will become part of the Baha’i religion.

I do not consider beliefs and practices to be the religion, but rather they are what religious followers believe in and do. As I view it, the religion is what was originally revealed by Baha’u’llah, not what people do with that. So, if certain beliefs and practices were contained in the Writings of Baha’u’llah, that is part of the religion. If the Baha’is went against the beliefs and practices Baha’u’llah taught they would make the Baha’i Faith look bad but they cannot change what Baha’u’llah revealed, which is “the religion” by my definition of religion above.

Somewhere there is a quote from Shoghi Effendi, the Guardian of the Baha’i Faith, wherein he said that if the Baha’is fail in their duty to do what is necessary to build the New World Order, God will raise up another people to take their place.

 

[Bird123]

No, you are wrong about that. Not everyone knows God and not all people are close to God. Some people are far from God and some people are closer to God than other people. We are not all the same.

Not all religions do this. Only some sects of Christianity do this.

Religions do not do this. Some religious followers do this. You cannot blame the religion for what its followers do.

Religion absolutely does not teach that. Some religious followers do this. You cannot blame the religion for what its followers do.

Religion absolutely does not teach that. Some religious followers do this. You cannot blame the religion for what its followers do.

God is the Ruler, but God does not control anyone. We all have free will and we control ourselves.

Nobody is hurt by the religion. They are hurt by the religious followers. You cannot justly blame the religion for what its followers do.

You said “religion teaches” but you are talking about what Christianity teaches. To say that all religions are like Christianity is the Fallacy of Hasty Generalization.

The Baha’i Faith does not teach Original Sin. We believe all humans are born good, with the propensity to do either good or evil, because we all have a higher noble spiritual nature and a lower selfish material nature.

You cannot know God except through the Messengers of God. Anything else you imagine about God is imaginary, not Real. Truth only comes through Messengers of God and they establish religions.

Nobody can discover God without religion because God only reveals Himself through Messengers who establish religions. The Real Truth only comes through Messengers of God. There is no other way to know anything about God. Anything else you imagine about God is just what you imagine to be Truth.

Religion does not teach people it is important to always be right. That is absolutely false.

Religion does not teach people to fight change once beliefs are accepted. That is absolutely false.

Messengers of God do not make errors because they are infallible. Humans make errors because human are fallible.

Science is never going to discover God. Nothing could be more outrageous than that, nothing. God dwells in His inaccessible habitation of holiness and glory, and will unto everlasting continue to be enthroned upon the heights of His independent sovereignty and grandeur. God will never be discovered by anyone.

Religion will never become obsolete. Religion has existed since the dawn of human history and it will continue to exist as long as humans exist. Religion is the only reason humanity is able to exist.

It is clear that the holy books come from God, to anyone who has eyes to see and ears to hear. Nothing you say comes from God because you have no way to know anything about God.

No holy books say we are not supposed to question. You say that.

I do not decide what is petty and not because I do not know as much as God. Apparently you think you do.

No, it does not mean that. It means that I do not think I know more than the infallible Messenger of God who was responsible for the holy book, because I am not arrogant.

Of course God is more than the sum of the holy books because God does not reveal everything to the Messengers, but you do not know more than those holy books because you have NO WAY to know anything about God except from the holy books.

You do not know anything about Reality. Reality is revealed in the holy books. You know nothing about God’s system. That is revealed in the holy books and that is the only place it is revealed.

Religion has the answers to mankind’s problems and the answers are revealed in the holy books in every age. Humans then use the holy books to guide them to solve their own problems.

God’s Love is unconditional but God is a lot more than Love. God is many things, things you will never know since you shun the only source of that knowledge, the holy books.

Your quote: Religion is the only reason humanity is able to exist. My Answer: Do you even hear yourself? How in the world do atheists exist? How did mankind make it before religion was invented? Your beliefs prove not to be true reality.

I find it funny how you make all these rules for God. You can make them, however God is not like others that you might be able to wrap around your finger.

Clearly, you can not see beyond your box of beliefs. More exists beyond that box than within it.

Did you know that it isn't all about good verses evil? Mankind has a very deep hand into religion.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Then it is no wonder you might have “issues” with religion, aside from the fact that you do not believe in God or Messengers of God.

I only have an issue with the religions that employ shoddy reasoning or cruelty.

I do not define religion that way. Here is my definition of religion:

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81​

I don’t believe you actually do define religion that way, because I’m confident you understand what people mean when they use the word “religion” to describe belief systems that you don’t think came from God.

What you described is what I would call the “organized religion.” The Baha’i community is to the Baha’i Faith as the Christian Church is to Christianity, a group of people who believe in the Founder of their faith, Baha’u’llah or Jesus.

I’m talking about the laity or the congregation, not just the religion’s leadership.

But neither one is representative of “the religion” as it was originally revealed in scriptures. They are the “followers” of the scriptures they believe in, which is what I consider the religion itself. The New Testament represents Christianity just as the Writings of Baha’u’llah represent the Baha’i Faith.

A religion’s scriptures might reflect what you think the religion ought to be like, but this is a separate question from what the religion is.

To use a metaphor (that hopefully won’t confuse things): imagine a religion is a building. It may very well be that the building was designed according to a set of blueprints and that those blueprints were drawn according to an architect’s vision, but even if the building wasn’t built exactly to the plans, or even if the plans weren’t drawn in perfect accordance with the architect’s vision, the building is still the building. Even if it was originally built completely in accordance with the architect’s vision but it gets renovated later, the building is still the building. The people who live there still live in that building, not the building that you think they should be living in if only they “knew” as you do that they’ve painted the walls the “wrong” colour.

I do not consider beliefs and practices to be the religion, but rather they are what religious followers believe in and do.

... which is the religion.

As I view it, the religion is what was originally revealed by Baha’u’llah, not what people do with that. So, if certain beliefs and practices were contained in the Writings of Baha’u’llah, that is part of the religion.

It’s part of the religion only insofar as Baha’is accept it and follow it. The writings of Baha’u’llah are part of the Baha’i religion because Baha’is consider them authoritative.

If the Baha’is went against the beliefs and practices Baha’u’llah taught they would make the Baha’i Faith look bad but they cannot change what Baha’u’llah revealed, which is “the religion” by my definition of religion above.

I get the sense that you - or maybe Baha’Is generally - have your own special definitions for words that don’t really agree with how they’re used by everyone else. We ran into this with “proselytizing” and I think we’re running into it again with “religion.”

I’ll just go back to what I talked about before: I’m pretty sure I’ve heard you talk about religions that you don’t believe came from God. How do you decide what constitutes “the religion” in those cases? Don’t you look at what the religion’s adherents believe and practice?

Somewhere there is a quote from Shoghi Effendi, the Guardian of the Baha’i Faith, wherein he said that if the Baha’is fail in their duty to do what is necessary to build the New World Order, God will raise up another people to take their place.

IOW, if the Baha’i faith no longer reflects God’s will, God will replace it with a religion that does?

 

[Trailblazer]

My quote: Religion is the only reason humanity is able to exist.

Your Answer: Do you even hear yourself? How in the world do atheists exist? How did mankind make it before religion was invented? Your beliefs prove not to be true reality.

Religion was not invented by man. Religion is a revelation from God to man through Messengers (Prophets). Religion has always existed because God has sent Messengers since the dawn of human history.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81​

I find it funny how you make all these rules for God. You can make them, however God is not like others that you might be able to wrap around your finger.

I do not make any rules for God, nor do you. God is the Ruler so God makes His own rules.

Clearly, you can not see beyond your box of beliefs. More exists beyond that box than within it.

The Truth about God comes from God to man through Messengers of God. Anything else you think about God is just a figment of your imagination, a fantasy. I prefer to go with Reality, not fantasy.

Did you know that it isn't all about good verses evil? Mankind has a very deep hand into religion.

Whatever man does in the name of religion cannot destroy the religion of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don’t believe you actually do define religion that way, because I’m confident you understand what people mean when they use the word “religion” to describe belief systems that you don’t think came from God.

Baha’u’llah defined the “nature” of religion. I just passed that along. What people “mean” when they use the word religion is obviously very different. They think of a religion as a group of people who have a set of common beliefs. Within that context, many groups of people could be considered religions. Their beliefs do not even have to come from God.

I’m talking about the laity or the congregation, not just the religion’s leadership.

So am I. It includes everyone within the organization.

A religion’s scriptures might reflect what you think the religion ought to be like, but this is a separate question from what the religion is.

To use a metaphor (that hopefully won’t confuse things): imagine a religion is a building. It may very well be that the building was designed according to a set of blueprints and that those blueprints were drawn according to an architect’s vision, but even if the building wasn’t built exactly to the plans, or even if the plans weren’t drawn in perfect accordance with the architect’s vision, the building is still the building. Even if it was originally built completely in accordance with the architect’s vision but it gets renovated later, the building is still the building. The people who live there still live in that building, not the building that you think they should be living in if only they “knew” as you do that they’ve painted the walls the “wrong” colour.

So what you are saying is that the religion is the beliefs and practices of the people who comprise the religion, regardless of what scriptures say they should believe and do.

I can buy that as a legitimate definition of religion. My definition of religion was not in the ordinary sense people think of it. To a Baha’i, religion is revealed by God, so is the revelation from God to man it is the words of God and the Faith of God, as referred to in the following passage:

“The world’s equilibrium hath been upset through the vibrating influence of this most great, this new World Order. Mankind’s ordered life hath been revolutionized through the agency of this unique, this wondrous System—the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed.​

Immerse yourselves in the ocean of My words, that ye may unravel its secrets, and discover all the pearls of wisdom that lie hid in its depths. Take heed that ye do not vacillate in your determination to embrace the truth of this Cause—a Cause through which the potentialities of the might of God have been revealed, and His sovereignty established. With faces beaming with joy, hasten ye unto Him. This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 136​

He says “changeless Faith of God” because there is only one religion (faith) of God, revealed successively throughout the ages, like chapters in one book. The spiritual verities of all the religions are the same; all that differs is the primary message and the social teachings and laws, which have to change in order to suit the times in which they are revealed.

... which is the religion.

Yes, the beliefs and practices are the religion of man, because they are what people believe and do with the scriptures, which are the religion of God.

It’s part of the religion only insofar as Baha’is accept it and follow it. The writings of Baha’u’llah are part of the Baha’i religion because Baha’is consider them authoritative.

True, that is another way of looking at religion, if you are looking at it in the broadest sense.

I get the sense that you - or maybe Baha’Is generally - have your own special definitions for words that don’t really agree with how they’re used by everyone else. We ran into this with “proselytizing” and I think we’re running into it again with “religion.”

It is just another definition of the word religion, which is unique to the Baha’i Faith. In short, we believe that religion is synonymous to the revelation that comes from God; and then man organizes around the revealed religion and it become an organized religion comprised of people who have common beliefs and practices.

I’ll just go back to what I talked about before: I’m pretty sure I’ve heard you talk about religions that you don’t believe came from God. How do you decide what constitutes “the religion” in those cases? Don’t you look at what the religion’s adherents believe and practice?

Where does one draw the line? Any group of people can call themselves a religion. Scientology is considered a religion by most people even though there is no God involved. Baha’is do not consider anything a True religion unless it was revealed by a Messenger of God and has scriptures. We would consider Mormonism as a religion because they believe in the Bible which we believe is the inspired Word of God. We do not believe that Joseph Smith got a revelation from God so in that sense Mormonism is not a religion in and of itself; it is a sect of Christianity.

IOW, if the Baha’i faith no longer reflects God’s will, God will replace it with a religion that does?

No, God will not replace the Baha’i Faith, God will raise up people other than the Baha’is to do the work the Baha’is should be doing. I do not know if they would become members of the Baha’i Faith or not. I looked for the quote but I could not find it, so I am just going on my memory. Maybe I can find the quote later.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Baha’u’llah defined the “nature” of religion. I just passed that along. What people “mean” when they use the word religion is obviously very different. They think of a religion as a group of people who have a set of common beliefs. Within that context, many groups of people could be considered religions. Their beliefs do not even have to come from God.

And the correctness of language is determined by usage, so the fact that Baha'u'llah's definition didn't gain really any popularity outside Baha'i circles means it isn't the established definition today.

So am I. It includes everyone within the organization.

Okay.

So what you are saying is that the religion is the beliefs and practices of the people who comprise the religion, regardless of what scriptures say they should believe and do.

Part of what constitutes "the religion" is the beliefs of the religion's adherents about whether their religion has "scriptures," what documents are considered scriptures of the religion, and what place or authority those scriptures should have.

I can buy that as a legitimate definition of religion. My definition of religion was not in the ordinary sense people think of it.

And hopefully you'll understand why I use the definition that's "in the ordinary sense people think of it."

To a Baha’i, religion is revealed by God, so is the revelation from God to man it is the words of God and the Faith of God, as referred to in the following passage:

“The world’s equilibrium hath been upset through the vibrating influence of this most great, this new World Order. Mankind’s ordered life hath been revolutionized through the agency of this unique, this wondrous System—the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed.​

Immerse yourselves in the ocean of My words, that ye may unravel its secrets, and discover all the pearls of wisdom that lie hid in its depths. Take heed that ye do not vacillate in your determination to embrace the truth of this Cause—a Cause through which the potentialities of the might of God have been revealed, and His sovereignty established. With faces beaming with joy, hasten ye unto Him. This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 136​

He says “changeless Faith of God” because there is only one religion (faith) of God, revealed successively throughout the ages, like chapters in one book. The spiritual verities of all the religions are the same; all that differs is the primary message and the social teachings and laws, which have to change in order to suit the times in which they are revealed.

But again: you do acknowledge the existence of religions that you don't think came from God, right?

Yes, the beliefs and practices are the religion of man, because they are what people believe and do with the scriptures, which are the religion of God.

The key word there is "religion." A "religion of man" is a religion.

True, that is another way of looking at religion, if you are looking at it in the broadest sense.

I'm looking at it in the normal sense.

It is just another definition of the word religion, which is unique to the Baha’i Faith. In short, we believe that religion is synonymous to the revelation that comes from God; and then man organizes around the revealed religion and it become an organized religion comprised of people who have common beliefs and practices.

Where does one draw the line? Any group of people can call themselves a religion. Scientology is considered a religion by most people even though there is no God involved.

The only thing common to all religions that I've been able to come up with is that a religion is a community of shared belief and practice. This isn't sufficient on its own... for instance, a political party can also be a community of shared belief and practice, but isn't a religion. Still, it captures the idea that what a religion is depends on what its adherents believe and do.

Baha’is do not consider anything a True religion unless it was revealed by a Messenger of God and has scriptures.

We aren't talking about truth here; we're talking about what "religion" means. Hopefully we can both recognize that since the wide spectrum of religions includes beliefs systems that contradict each other, a religion doesn't have to be true to be a religion.

We would consider Mormonism as a religion because they believe in the Bible which we believe is the inspired Word of God. We do not believe that Joseph Smith got a revelation from God so in that sense Mormonism is not a religion in and of itself; it is a sect of Christianity.

You just called Mormonism a religion and not a religion, so I'm not sure which one your position actually is.

If I understand you properly, then I may agree with you: I think that Christianity is so diverse that in a lot of ways, it makes more sense to consider it a family of religions instead of a single religion.

No, God will not replace the Baha’i Faith, God will raise up people other than the Baha’is to do the work the Baha’is should be doing. I do not know if they would become members of the Baha’i Faith or not. I looked for the quote but I could not find it, so I am just going on my memory. Maybe I can find the quote later.

It seems like you're just repeating what I said in a slightly different way. If God is going to "raise up" people other than the Baha'is - i.e. members of the Baha'i religion - then aren't you talking about a new religion that's different from the Baha'i religion?

 

[Trailblazer]

And the correctness of language is determined by usage, so the fact that Baha'u'llah's definition didn't gain really any popularity outside Baha'i circles means it isn't the established definition today.

Of course not. Most people do not even understand what I mean when I talk about “religion” because I am thinking one thing and they are thinking another. I am glad we had this little talk, because now I am coming to understand why there is a gap in understanding. To refer to religion as something God established is meaningless to most people because they think of religion as something humans do, believing and worshiping of a God or gods. But the fact remains that there would be no religion for humans if God had not sent a Messenger to establish it in the first place.

Part of what constitutes "the religion" is the beliefs of the religion's adherents about whether their religion has "scriptures," what documents are considered scriptures of the religion, and what place or authority those scriptures should have.

And hopefully you'll understand why I use the definition that's "in the ordinary sense people think of it."

Yes, as I said above, and thanks for pointing that out.

But again: you do acknowledge the existence of religions that you don't think came from God, right?

I do not acknowledge religions as religions unless they were revealed by God through a Messenger. That is a narrower definition than most people have.....

Religion: the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods. https://www.google.com/search

.... because some people might not necessarily require a Messenger to believe in and worship a God or gods; but to me that makes no sense because there would be no way to know anything about God without a Messenger, so to me any religion without a Messenger would be a man-made religion.

The key word there is "religion." A "religion of man" is a religion.

That is true, but that is a “religion of man” that has nothing to do with something superhuman, especially a God or gods, is not really a religion by the definition above.

I'm looking at it in the normal sense.

You mean in the commonly accepted sense.

The only thing common to all religions that I've been able to come up with is that a religion is a community of shared belief and practice. This isn't sufficient on its own... for instance, a political party can also be a community of shared belief and practice, but isn't a religion. Still, it captures the idea that what a religion is depends on what its adherents believe and do.

That is true, but all groups believe in something and do something. As the definition above says, the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, a God or gods, is what all religions have in common.

We aren't talking about truth here; we're talking about what "religion" means. Hopefully we can both recognize that since the wide spectrum of religions includes beliefs systems that contradict each other, a religion doesn't have to be true to be a religion.

I can agree with that, but at the very least there has to be belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, a God or gods, even if the belief is false, in which case the adherents are worshiping an imaginary god, not the Real God. As far as I am concerned, any religion whose adherents are worshiping the Real God is a True Religion.

You just called Mormonism a religion and not a religion, so I'm not sure which one your position actually is.

Mormonism is a religion. What I meant is that it is not a “separate religion” from Christianity because Mormons believe in and worship Jesus Christ, just like all other Christians. They do not worship Joseph Smith, even though they believe he was a Prophet. Do Mormons Worship the Prophet Joseph Smith? They simply believe they have additional information about Jesus from Joseph Smith, which is why they are different from other Christians, thus a sect of Christianity.

If I understand you properly, then I may agree with you: I think that Christianity is so diverse that in a lot of ways, it makes more sense to consider it a family of religions instead of a single religion.

Christianity certainly is not a unified religion; it is a religion comprised of many sects, but what all Christians have in common is belief in of Jesus Christ. Most Christians also worship Jesus as God, but some Christians do not believe Jesus was God and they worship God.

It seems like you're just repeating what I said in a slightly different way. If God is going to "raise up" people other than the Baha'is - i.e. members of the Baha'i religion - then aren't you talking about a new religion that's different from the Baha'i religion?

No, it does not mean there would be a “new religion.” The Baha’i Faith would still be fully intact, as the Cause of God for this age (Baha’u’llah referred to the Baha’i Faith as the Cause of God). Those who God raises up would simply be those who are willing to do the work to build the “new world order” envisioned by Baha’u’llah and they could even be nonbelievers. Of course, they would have to believe in the ideals that were set forth by Baha’u’llah, as follows:

“This is the Day in which God’s most excellent favors have been poured out upon men, the Day in which His most mighty grace hath been infused into all created things. It is incumbent upon all the peoples of the world to reconcile their differences, and, with perfect unity and peace, abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care and loving-kindness. It behoveth them to cleave to whatsoever will, in this Day, be conducive to the exaltation of their stations, and to the promotion of their best interests. Happy are those whom the all-glorious Pen was moved to remember, and blessed are those men whose names, by virtue of Our inscrutable decree, We have preferred to conceal.

Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 6-7​

I had an atheist friend (a humanist) on my forum several years ago who loved everything that Baha’u’llah taught. He wanted to be involved in building the new world order and he posted all about Baha’u’llah and the Baha’i Faith on his website. Anyone is welcome to join in the building process and they do not have to believe in God, but they cannot officially “join” the Baha’i Faith unless they believe that Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation of God.

 

[Podo]

God desires us to worship Him for our own sakes, not because He needs our worship. God does not need anything. The point in worshiping God is that it profits us to do so.

“Consider the mercy of God and His gifts. He enjoineth upon you that which shall profit you, though He Himself can well dispense with all creatures.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 140​

God wants everyone to believe in Him, but God does not need anyone to believe in Him. God has the power to force everyone to believe in Him, but God never forces people to believe in Him. God only wants belief from those who freely choose to believe in Him.

No, God is not obligated to make everyone worship Him. God wants that to be a choice and that is why we all have free will.

God is not bad at His job because when He revealed the Writings they were in pristine condition. They got corrupted by human meddling over the years. That is why Baha’u’llah enjoined us to turn towards Him, because His Writings are still pristine.

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 171-172​

God did manifest, when He sent Baha’u’llah.

“Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world....... in moments in which these Essences of Being were deep immersed beneath the oceans of ancient and everlasting holiness, or when they soared to the loftiest summits of Divine mysteries, they claimed their utterances to be the Voice of Divinity, the Call of God Himself.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 54-55​

None of which is verifiable or observable. How convenient for you.

 

[Trailblazer]

None of which is verifiable or observable. How convenient for you.

God is not verifiable or observable. Sorry that is inconvenient for you.

If people actually used their logical minds they would understand why God is not verifiable or observable. God is immaterial and does not dwell in the material world.

If people actually used their logical minds they would understand that since God cannot "show up" God sends Messengers as Representatives. They are both divine and human such that they can bridge the gap between and humans.

All this makes sense but nobody bothers to use their mind. They just want what they want, even though it makes no sense at all.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

God is not verifiable or observable. Sorry that is inconvenient for you.

For me, "not verifiable or observable" implies "not to be believed in."

If people actually used their logical minds they would understand why God is not verifiable or observable. God is immaterial and does not dwell in the material world.

If people actually used their logical minds they would understand that since God cannot "show up" God sends Messengers as Representatives. They are both divine and human such that they can bridge the gap between and humans.

Anything that exists at all in the material world is potentially observable.

Anything that does not exist at all in the material world would not be able to influence material things, such as the human beings you call "messengers."

All this makes sense but nobody bothers to use their mind.

No, it really doesn't make sense. Your argument internally contradictory and the facts at hand are consistent with God not existing at all and your "messengers" creating their "revelations" themselves.

 

[Podo]

God is not verifiable or observable. Sorry that is inconvenient for you.

Then there is no reason to believe in one.

If people actually used their logical minds they would understand why God is not verifiable or observable. God is immaterial and does not dwell in the material world.

Says you. But you can't prove those claims, or even present them in a way that doesn't 100% rely on the listener (or reader) simply taking your word for it. Funny thing, that.

If people actually used their logical minds they would understand that since God cannot "show up" God sends Messengers as Representatives. They are both divine and human such that they can bridge the gap between and humans.

If your god cannot show up, then it is not all powerful and deserves no adoration. If it chooses not to, it is sadistic and deserves no adoration. Or, more likely, your god is a mental construct that grew out of a culture's shared ideals, used to represent a group's personified idea of how to live life.

All this makes sense but nobody bothers to use their mind. They just want what they want, even though it makes no sense at all.

Your statements are unverifiable. You can't just claim "this makes sense, trust me" and expect people to unquestioningly believe you. Or, you have to accept that there is an invisible giant sasquatch eating elderberry pie in my back yard. You can't hear it, see it, smell it, or taste it, but it's there. But nobody believes me because nObOdY uSeS tHeIr lOgIc mInDs.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then there is no reason to believe in one.

Not for you, but there is a good reason for rational people to believe in God.
#19 Trailblazer

Says you. But you can't prove those claims, or even present them in a way that doesn't 100% rely on the listener (or reader) simply taking your word for it. Funny thing, that.

No, not says me, says a Messenger of God, which is the only way to know anything about God.

If your god cannot show up, then it is not all powerful and deserves no adoration. If it chooses not to, it is sadistic and deserves no adoration. Or, more likely, your god is a mental construct that grew out of a culture's shared ideals, used to represent a group's personified idea of how to live life.

God is All-Powerful but God cannot show up in a material world in any way that you would recognize God, except in the “Person” of His Messenger... That is why God sends a Messenger, to prove he exists and convey a message...

God is not sadistic just because you do not get what you want. God is not obligated to give you anything, but God did send you a Messenger, and then you threw the Messenger back in God’s face... But God does not care because God does not need your belief, since God does not need anything from humans.

Your statements are unverifiable. You can't just claim "this makes sense, trust me" and expect people to unquestioningly believe you. Or, you have to accept that there is an invisible giant sasquatch eating elderberry pie in my back yard. You can't hear it, see it, smell it, or taste it, but it's there. But nobody believes me because nObOdY uSeS tHeIr lOgIc mInDs.

You should not trust me or believe me just because I said something makes sense to me. It needs to make sense to you, but in order for that to happen you have to use your own mind and think it through, question it. You have to look at the evidence and verify it for yourself. Nobody can do that for you.

 

[Podo]

God is All-Powerful but God cannot show up in a material world in any way that you would recognize God, except in the “Person” of His Messenger... That is why God sends a Messenger, to prove he exists and convey a message...

You're so deep down the theistic rabbithole that you can't even see the plain contradictions in your own statements.

 

[Trailblazer]

For me, "not verifiable or observable" implies "not to be believed in."

Everyone has their own requirements.

For me, an observable God is not God at all. In other words, any God I could see would not be God at all.

I have no idea why atheists think that if God exists we could observe God. God is not a material being we can see because God does not dwell in the material world where we can see Him.

I have verified that God exists through Baha’u’llah.

Anything that exists at all in the material world is potentially observable.

True, and Baha’u’llah was observed.

Anything that does not exist at all in the material world would not be able to influence material things, such as the human beings you call "messengers."

God cannot show up in the material world so that we can see Him (except in the Person of His Messenger) but God can and does influence the material world. Just because we cannot see that does not mean it is not happening. Nobody can see God or know what God is doing at any time.

God can communicate to the Messengers but how God does that is not something we can understand because we do not have the capacity to understand how God functions. Not even the Messengers understand how God functions; they just hear the Voice of God. They are able to hear it because they have a divine mind. We are not able to hear it because we do not have a divine mind.

No, it really doesn't make sense. Your argument internally contradictory and the facts at hand are consistent with God not existing at all and your "messengers" creating their "revelations" themselves.

It does not make sense to you and other atheists but it makes sense to me and other believers. For whatever reason we reason differently.

What is internally contradictory about my argument? What facts are inconsistent with God existing? What facts are consistent with the Messengers creating the revelations themselves?