Questions for Atheists and Agnostics

[Shad]

My Answer: God has no rules.

There are some "rules" which can not be violated. God can not make a squared circle for example as the very concept is illogical. Often this is phrased as "God can do anything logically possible"

 

[paarsurrey]

Is there any reason to think that God, if God exists, would want 100% of people in the world to believe in Him?

If God wanted everyone to believe in Him, what do you think God would do in order to accomplish that?

Do you think that God can show up on earth? If so, how would God do that?

"Is there any reason to think that God, if God exists, would want 100% of people in the world to believe in Him?" Unquote

G-d did not want that humans should believe Him per force, He wanted that they do it:
~ by seeing His clear signs manifested in the Universe everywhere
~and in special by seeing His help He provides to His prophets/messengers chosen by Him.

Regards

 

[Bird123]

There are some "rules" which can not be violated. God can not make a squared circle for example as the very concept is illogical. Often this is phrased as "God can do anything logically possible"

Is it a rule that a circle is round? Isn't round merely a description of a circle?

Quantum physics is showing the possibility of many dimensions. Perhaps a squared circle is possible in another form. There is more that we do not know than we do. Making rules and assumptions for oneself can prevent one from True Discovery.

 

[Shad]

Is it a rule that a circle is round?

By definition it is.

Isn't round merely a description of a circle?

Round has a specific definition which is mathematical in this context.

"having every part of the surface or circumference equidistant from the center"

Quantum physics is showing the possibility of many dimensions. Perhaps a squared circle is possible in another form

Nope. It is mathematical term which can not be changed by QM in any way.

There is more that we do not know than we do. Making rules and assumptions for oneself can prevent one from True Discovery.

Sophistry.

 

[Trailblazer]

My quote: Who are you to think you know what God’s rules are?

Your Answer: God has no rules.

Why do you think that? How do you know that?

God does not “have rules.” God rules the Universe. There is a difference.

God reveals rules to the Messenger for us to follow.

My quote: What are your credentials? You have no credentials, as do the Messengers of God.

Your Answer: Everyone is equal. Anyone can speak truth. There are no credentials other than the labels mankind attempts to value and place on people.

Anyone can speak “what they think” is the truth, but that does not mean it “is” the truth. It might be the truth or not.

My quote: When did you sacrifice and suffer for the sake God and humanity, like Jesus and Baha’u’llah did? When did complete your mission for God? Where are your scriptures?

Your Answer: Did these people really suffer for God and humanity? How much of the real truth do you omit out of a narrow vision of the whole truth? Why do you think I have a need for a holy book written by mankind? If all the holy books disappeared tomorrow, the world would go on. God has no need for holy books. Why should I.

These Messengers of God suffered tremendously for God and humanity, enduring excruciating ordeals, from the time they announced their mission until the day they died.

The Real Truth comes from the holy books. We can get it there. We can also discover truth on our own, but it is subject to being wrong. The holy books were not written by mankind. They were revealed or written by Messengers of God who are not mere men, they are both divine and human.

Maybe you and others like you do not need the holy books but the rest of humanity needs them. God has no need for the holy books for Himself, but humanity has a need for holy books. That is why God reveals the holy books through His Messengers. The world would not go on without the holy books. The Word of God sustains humanity.

My quote: God loves everyone but everyone is not equal in the sight of God,

Your answer: What is more important? Revenge, hate, condemning, punishing or Fixing the Real Problem? Do you fry your child or Fix them? Do you love one child over another simply because one makes a few bad choices? Aren't you really defending so many of the petty things religion is teaching people to value? Don't these petty things in the end translate into hate?

You are making a straw man argument. I never said anything about revenge, hate, condemning, or punishing. Maybe that is what you think religion is all about, but true religion is not about those things. It is about “fixing” the problems humanity has, individually and collectively. That is why God sends Messengers. They are the All-Knowing Physicians who know the problems and they have the remedy the world needs. They teach us how to heal our own ills. We do the work.

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.

We can well perceive how the whole human race is encompassed with great, with incalculable afflictions. We see it languishing on its bed of sickness, sore-tried and disillusioned. They that are intoxicated by self-conceit have interposed themselves between it and the Divine and infallible Physician. Witness how they have entangled all men, themselves included, in the mesh of their devices. They can neither discover the cause of the disease, nor have they any knowledge of the remedy. They have conceived the straight to be crooked, and have imagined their friend an enemy.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213​

I hear religions saying for God for God, that's what God wants. Don't you realize God is Unconditional Love? Unconditional Love always does what is Best for the other. Think! This world is not for God. It is for US. WE are not doing for God. God is doing for Us.

God is Unconditional Love, Mercy and Compassion, but God also has Wrath because it is not Just for people to hate and hurt each other.

God is for Equity and Justice. Without Equity and Justice, Love is meaningless. Within this new religious cycle, Equity and Justice will become firmly established.

“Tell, O ‘Alí, the loved ones of God that equity is the most fundamental among human virtues. The evaluation of all things must needs depend upon it. Ponder a while on the woes and afflictions which this Prisoner hath sustained. I have, all the days of My life, been at the mercy of Mine enemies, and have suffered each day, in the path of the love of God, a fresh tribulation. I have patiently endured until the fame of the Cause of God was spread abroad on the earth. If any one should now arise and, prompted by the vain imaginations his heart hath devised, endeavor, openly or in secret, to sow the seeds of dissension amongst men—can such a man be said to have acted with equity? No, by Him Whose might extendeth over all things! By My life! Mine heart groaneth and mine eyes weep sore for the Cause of God and for them that understand not what they say and imagine what they cannot comprehend.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 203

“Say: Observe equity in your judgment, ye men of understanding heart! He that is unjust in his judgment is destitute of the characteristics that distinguish man’s station. He Who is the Eternal Truth knoweth well what the breasts of men conceal. His long forbearance hath emboldened His creatures, for not until the appointed time is come will He rend any veil asunder. His surpassing mercy hath restrained the fury of His wrath, and caused most people to imagine that the one true God is unaware of the things they have privily committed. By Him Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Informed! The mirror of His knowledge reflecteth, with complete distinctness, precision and fidelity, the doings of all men. Say: Praise be to Thee, O Concealer of the sins of the weak and helpless! Magnified be Thy name, O Thou that forgivest the heedless ones that trespass against Thee!”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 204​

When religions say “that is what God wants” what they mean is that is what God wants for humanity. God wants nothing for Himself because God does not need anything. God is fully self-sufficient. God just wants us to have what profits us.

“Consider the mercy of God and His gifts. He enjoineth upon you that which shall profit you, though He Himself can well dispense with all creatures.” GleaningsFrom the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 140​

My quote: You are telling people to believe that they can Discover God by themselves.

Your Answer: I'm not telling anyone to believe anything. On the other hand, when the wright brothers flew the first plane, it became so much easier for everyone else simply because they knew it was possible. Look what followed.

That is a good point. The Messengers of God give us what we need to fly our own planes. They lay out the blueprint and we build our own houses. That is why they are sent, as Guides and Teachers. But we have to do the heavy lifting.

My quote: You are not pointing me in a direction. You are telling me that I have to do it your way.

Your Answer: Your journey has never depended on me. Sound familiar? Everyone's free choice is very important. I will not make your choices for you nor will I ever make demands. Be Free!!

I fully agree with that. I am free. The fact that I belong to a religion does not take my freedom away. Maybe you have such a misconception. As far as I am concerned, free will is sacrosanct. Everything humans do is based upon free will choices. God does not intervene although God assists us in ways we cannot comprehend.
70: FREE WILL

 

[Trailblazer]

"Is there any reason to think that God, if God exists, would want 100% of people in the world to believe in Him?" Unquote

G-d did not want that humans should believe Him per force, He wanted that they do it:
~ by seeing His clear signs manifested in the Universe everywhere
~and in special by seeing His help He provides to His prophets/messengers chosen by Him.

I fully agree. I could not have said that better myself.

 

[Bird123]

Why do you think that? How do you know that?

God does not “have rules.” God rules the Universe. There is a difference.

God reveals rules to the Messenger for us to follow.

Anyone can speak “what they think” is the truth, but that does not mean it “is” the truth. It might be the truth or not.

These Messengers of God suffered tremendously for God and humanity, enduring excruciating ordeals, from the time they announced their mission until the day they died.

The Real Truth comes from the holy books. We can get it there. We can also discover truth on our own, but it is subject to being wrong. The holy books were not written by mankind. They were revealed or written by Messengers of God who are not mere men, they are both divine and human.

Maybe you and others like you do not need the holy books but the rest of humanity needs them. God has no need for the holy books for Himself, but humanity has a need for holy books. That is why God reveals the holy books through His Messengers. The world would not go on without the holy books. The Word of God sustains humanity.

You are making a straw man argument. I never said anything about revenge, hate, condemning, or punishing. Maybe that is what you think religion is all about, but true religion is not about those things. It is about “fixing” the problems humanity has, individually and collectively. That is why God sends Messengers. They are the All-Knowing Physicians who know the problems and they have the remedy the world needs. They teach us how to heal our own ills. We do the work.

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.

We can well perceive how the whole human race is encompassed with great, with incalculable afflictions. We see it languishing on its bed of sickness, sore-tried and disillusioned. They that are intoxicated by self-conceit have interposed themselves between it and the Divine and infallible Physician. Witness how they have entangled all men, themselves included, in the mesh of their devices. They can neither discover the cause of the disease, nor have they any knowledge of the remedy. They have conceived the straight to be crooked, and have imagined their friend an enemy.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213​

God is Unconditional Love, Mercy and Compassion, but God also has Wrath because it is not Just for people to hate and hurt each other.

God is for Equity and Justice. Without Equity and Justice, Love is meaningless. Within this new religious cycle, Equity and Justice will become firmly established.

“Tell, O ‘Alí, the loved ones of God that equity is the most fundamental among human virtues. The evaluation of all things must needs depend upon it. Ponder a while on the woes and afflictions which this Prisoner hath sustained. I have, all the days of My life, been at the mercy of Mine enemies, and have suffered each day, in the path of the love of God, a fresh tribulation. I have patiently endured until the fame of the Cause of God was spread abroad on the earth. If any one should now arise and, prompted by the vain imaginations his heart hath devised, endeavor, openly or in secret, to sow the seeds of dissension amongst men—can such a man be said to have acted with equity? No, by Him Whose might extendeth over all things! By My life! Mine heart groaneth and mine eyes weep sore for the Cause of God and for them that understand not what they say and imagine what they cannot comprehend.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 203

“Say: Observe equity in your judgment, ye men of understanding heart! He that is unjust in his judgment is destitute of the characteristics that distinguish man’s station. He Who is the Eternal Truth knoweth well what the breasts of men conceal. His long forbearance hath emboldened His creatures, for not until the appointed time is come will He rend any veil asunder. His surpassing mercy hath restrained the fury of His wrath, and caused most people to imagine that the one true God is unaware of the things they have privily committed. By Him Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Informed! The mirror of His knowledge reflecteth, with complete distinctness, precision and fidelity, the doings of all men. Say: Praise be to Thee, O Concealer of the sins of the weak and helpless! Magnified be Thy name, O Thou that forgivest the heedless ones that trespass against Thee!”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 204​

When religions say “that is what God wants” what they mean is that is what God wants for humanity. God wants nothing for Himself because God does not need anything. God is fully self-sufficient. God just wants us to have what profits us.

“Consider the mercy of God and His gifts. He enjoineth upon you that which shall profit you, though He Himself can well dispense with all creatures.” GleaningsFrom the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 140​

That is a good point. The Messengers of God give us what we need to fly our own planes. They lay out the blueprint and we build our own houses. That is why they are sent, as Guides and Teachers. But we have to do the heavy lifting.

I fully agree with that. I am free. The fact that I belong to a religion does not take my freedom away. Maybe you have such a misconception. As far as I am concerned, free will is sacrosanct. Everything humans do is based upon free will choices. God does not intervene although God assists us in ways we cannot comprehend.
70: FREE WILL

You might not realize it but you value many of the petty things mankind holds so dear. Ruling, Blaming,Judging, Condemning, Punishing,etc.

Why does God not have rules? Rules are not needed. You have to remember God is at a much higher level. If you were at this higher level, would you need rules or need to be ruled? Of course not, you would have acquired enough wisdom and intelligence that the bad choices would no longer be viable choices simply because they are not intelligent choices.

You value punishing, blaming, and condemning. You value this in the name of your justice. You want payback. Is this a higher level? Of course not. If you really loved unconditionally, the only thing that would matter is helping or fixing those who made those bad choices. The rest is garbage and hate.

God does not hate. God does not have wrath. Why would God have hate or wrath due to anyone's actions when God knows that everyone will acquire what they need to know to always make good choices. There is no time limit on learning.

God is at a higher level where there is no hate or wrath nor is there a need for it. Acquire enough intelligence and you will no longer need it either. First, you must stop trying to control or rule others.

I know you value those messengers yet their writings show the petty things mankind holds so dear. They see this world as a mess and a problem and yet this world is no more than the fix. Your messengers have Narrow Vision. Much more lives beyond the surface.

God is High Intelligence. God's system is High Intelligence. Like I said before. It's going to take work to really Understand at least the basics of what is really going on.

Want to make big strides and advances? When you start to understand God's moves and the reasons for God's actions, copy them. If you sit next to the smartest student in a classroom, in time, some of it will rub off on you.

 

[Bird123]

By definition it is.



Round has a specific definition which is mathematical in this context.

"having every part of the surface or circumference equidistant from the center"



Nope. It is mathematical term which can not be changed by QM in any way.



Sophistry.

Language has many different angles on interpretation. You view a description or a definition as a rule. I do not. Language?

If I say you must follow a certain holy book or I will send you to Hell. That is a rule and a threat. Both of which God does not do because it is not a true intelligent act.

God isn't making a bunch of rules for people. God grants everyone the freedom to freely choose what they want to learn through their choices.

In this time-based causal universe everyone is Living their lessons. When one truly Understands all sides, Intelligence will make the best choices. Why then would you need rules and have to enforce those rules? Not a wise choice.

Mankind, on the other hand, makes rules in an attempt to control the actions of others. Further, when the actions are not control, they punish or attempt to use pain to coerce the actions of others. What are they teaching us all? What is religion teaching us all?

 

[Trailblazer]

You might not realize it but you value many of the petty things mankind holds so dear. Ruling, Blaming,Judging, Condemning, Punishing,etc.

You cannot speak for me as if you know what I am thinking. You don’t.

I know what I value and I do not value any of those things.

Why does God not have rules? Rules are not needed. You have to remember God is at a much higher level. If you were at this higher level, would you need rules or need to be ruled? Of course not, you would have acquired enough wisdom and intelligence that the bad choices would no longer be viable choices simply because they are not intelligent choices.

God sets rules for humans because humans need rules. Just like we need secular laws in society, we need moral laws. I do not care if you and other people on this forum “like it” because that does not change reality. From time immemorial God has sent Messengers and they have revealed a set of teachings and laws for humanity to follow... Ever heard of the Ten Commandments? To this day, laws in the secular world are based upon these Laws. No, humans did not invent the Ten Commandments. Moses revealed them. Moses was a Messenger of God who got them from God.

You do not have to follow any teachings and laws from the Messengers of God, but it is undeniable that they were revealed by God.

You value punishing, blaming, and condemning. You value this in the name of your justice. You want payback. Is this a higher level? Of course not. If you really loved unconditionally, the only thing that would matter is helping or fixing those who made those bad choices. The rest is garbage and hate.

I do not value any of those things and neither does God. It is not my job to punish, blame, or condemn anyone because I am not God. Only God should judge anyone, and He sure as heck does, because that comes with His job description.

Justice is not payback. Justice is giving what is deserved. Not all people deserve the same treatment because all humans have the same behavior. Some are good, some are evil, and there are many, many shades of gray in between.

God does love unconditionally but God does not fix people. It is their job to fix themselves. The way God assists in that process if to send Messengers with a set of teachings and laws for us to follow such that we can avoid some of our mistakes. Not all mistakes can be avoided because nobody can follow the teachings and laws perfectly. We are not punished for not being perfect.

How do you think I can help everyone who makes bad choices? Why is that my responsibility? It is not my responsibility to “fix” anyone except myself. I help those who want my help. I cannot help everyone in the world. That is the job Messengers came to do. The help is there for those who want it. It is only because of God’s mercy that God sends Messengers, since He does not have to do jack squat for humans since God is fully self-sufficient, far above the need for anything from anyone.

God does not hate. God does not have wrath. Why would God have hate or wrath due to anyone's actions when God knows that everyone will acquire what they need to know to always make good choices. There is no time limit on learning.

God does not hate anyone but God does have wrath.

You are insane if you think that everyone will acquire what they need to know to always make good choices. There is NO evidence that this is happening in the world. You are living in some kind of fantasy. There is a time limit because we only have so many years to live.

God is at a higher level where there is no hate or wrath nor is there a need for it. Acquire enough intelligence and you will no longer need it either. First, you must stop trying to control or rule others.

You do not know anything about God. You believe in an imaginary god, one you made up to suit your fancy. You do not know what God needs. How could you ever know that?

I do not have hate or wrath for anyone. Part of the reason I don’t is because I follow the teachings of Baha’u’llah. If I just followed my own self I would be hateful, but I know better because of what Jesus and Baha’u’llah revealed.

“The Great Being saith: O ye children of men! The fundamental purpose animating the Faith of God and His Religion is to safeguard the interests and promote the unity of the human race, and to foster the spirit of love and fellowship amongst men. Suffer it not to become a source of dissension and discord, of hate and enmity. This is the straight Path, the fixed and immovable foundation. Whatsoever is raised on this foundation, the changes and chances of the world can never impair its strength, nor will the revolution of countless centuries undermine its structure.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 215​

I do not see any hate in that passage. I only see love.

You are the one who is trying to control and rule others. I just state what I believe and I leave it at that. I do not tell people what they need to do. Everyone has to make their own choices what to believe and how to live. That is why we have free will.

I know you value those messengers yet their writings show the petty things mankind holds so dear. They see this world as a mess and a problem and yet this world is no more than the fix. Your messengers have Narrow Vision. Much more lives beyond the surface.

The Writings of Baha’u’llah show humanity what is important and what we need to do to make this world a better place. They are anything but narrow. Of course there are problems in the world. Everyone can see that but you have your head in the sand. Do you watch and news on TV?

God is High Intelligence. God's system is High Intelligence. Like I said before. It's going to take work to really Understand at least the basics of what is really going on.

You do not know anything about “God’s System” and there is no way you will ever know because you reject the Messengers of God who reveal that information. You do not understand anything that is going on. You live in a fantasy world.

Want to make big strides and advances? When you start to understand God's moves and the reasons for God's actions, copy them. If you sit next to the smartest student in a classroom, in time, some of it will rub off on you.

You do not understand God's moves, let alone the reasons for God's actions. Nobody knows God’s moves or actions, not even the Messengers of God.

You know nothing about the Real God. You believe in an imaginary god.

 

[Shad]

Language has many different angles on interpretation. You view a description or a definition as a rule. I do not. Language?

No it's a mathematical term that does not change with language used.

If I say you must follow a certain holy book or I will send you to Hell. That is a rule and a threat. Both of which God does not do because it is not a true intelligent act.
God isn't making a bunch of rules for people. God grants everyone the freedom to freely choose what they want to learn through their choices.

Different type of rules are being used. This is not a comparison to anything I said.

In this time-based causal universe everyone is Living their lessons. When one truly Understands all sides, Intelligence will make the best choices. Why then would you need rules and have to enforce those rules? Not a wise choice.

Mankind, on the other hand, makes rules in an attempt to control the actions of others. Further, when the actions are not control, they punish or attempt to use pain to coerce the actions of others. What are they teaching us all? What is religion teaching us all?

This has nothing to do with anything I said.

 

[Bird123]

You cannot speak for me as if you know what I am thinking. You don’t.

I know what I value and I do not value any of those things.

God sets rules for humans because humans need rules. Just like we need secular laws in society, we need moral laws. I do not care if you and other people on this forum “like it” because that does not change reality. From time immemorial God has sent Messengers and they have revealed a set of teachings and laws for humanity to follow... Ever heard of the Ten Commandments? To this day, laws in the secular world are based upon these Laws. No, humans did not invent the Ten Commandments. Moses revealed them. Moses was a Messenger of God who got them from God.

You do not have to follow any teachings and laws from the Messengers of God, but it is undeniable that they were revealed by God.

I do not value any of those things and neither does God. It is not my job to punish, blame, or condemn anyone because I am not God. Only God should judge anyone, and He sure as heck does, because that comes with His job description.

Justice is not payback. Justice is giving what is deserved. Not all people deserve the same treatment because all humans have the same behavior. Some are good, some are evil, and there are many, many shades of gray in between.

God does love unconditionally but God does not fix people. It is their job to fix themselves. The way God assists in that process if to send Messengers with a set of teachings and laws for us to follow such that we can avoid some of our mistakes. Not all mistakes can be avoided because nobody can follow the teachings and laws perfectly. We are not punished for not being perfect.

How do you think I can help everyone who makes bad choices? Why is that my responsibility? It is not my responsibility to “fix” anyone except myself. I help those who want my help. I cannot help everyone in the world. That is the job Messengers came to do. The help is there for those who want it. It is only because of God’s mercy that God sends Messengers, since He does not have to do jack squat for humans since God is fully self-sufficient, far above the need for anything from anyone.

God does not hate anyone but God does have wrath.

You are insane if you think that everyone will acquire what they need to know to always make good choices. There is NO evidence that this is happening in the world. You are living in some kind of fantasy. There is a time limit because we only have so many years to live.

You do not know anything about God. You believe in an imaginary god, one you made up to suit your fancy. You do not know what God needs. How could you ever know that?

I do not have hate or wrath for anyone. Part of the reason I don’t is because I follow the teachings of Baha’u’llah. If I just followed my own self I would be hateful, but I know better because of what Jesus and Baha’u’llah revealed.

“The Great Being saith: O ye children of men! The fundamental purpose animating the Faith of God and His Religion is to safeguard the interests and promote the unity of the human race, and to foster the spirit of love and fellowship amongst men. Suffer it not to become a source of dissension and discord, of hate and enmity. This is the straight Path, the fixed and immovable foundation. Whatsoever is raised on this foundation, the changes and chances of the world can never impair its strength, nor will the revolution of countless centuries undermine its structure.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 215​

I do not see any hate in that passage. I only see love.

You are the one who is trying to control and rule others. I just state what I believe and I leave it at that. I do not tell people what they need to do. Everyone has to make their own choices what to believe and how to live. That is why we have free will.

The Writings of Baha’u’llah show humanity what is important and what we need to do to make this world a better place. They are anything but narrow. Of course there are problems in the world. Everyone can see that but you have your head in the sand. Do you watch and news on TV?

You do not know anything about “God’s System” and there is no way you will ever know because you reject the Messengers of God who reveal that information. You do not understand anything that is going on. You live in a fantasy world.

You do not understand God's moves, let alone the reasons for God's actions. Nobody knows God’s moves or actions, not even the Messengers of God.

You know nothing about the Real God. You believe in an imaginary god.

your quote:God sets rules for humans because humans need rules. My Answer: God isn't setting rules for humans. Mankind is doing that. There are better ways, however it's going to take some time before mankind reaches that level of understanding.

your quote:You do not have to follow any teachings and laws from the Messengers of God, but it is undeniable that they were revealed by God. My Answer: I deny it that they came from God. Just read their holy book and you can see.

your quote:Only God should judge anyone, and He sure as heck does, because that comes with His job description. My Answer: Comes with the job description??????? Mankind's description no doubt. It surely does not exist in my description. There are Better ways than those petty things mankind holds so dear. You say you do not value those petty things. OK, but God does by your description??? Does not add up.

your quote:God does love unconditionally but God does not fix people. It is their job to fix themselves. My Answer: Unconditional Love always does what is Best for the other. Is it really in the kiddies best interest for God to abandon them by having no hand in their education?? I don't think so.

your quote:We are not punished for not being perfect. My Answer; There you go having those petty things incorporated in your thinking. Don't you realize? It has never ever been about punishment!!

your quote:God does not hate anyone but God does have wrath. My Answer: What causes this wrath??? Is it because he is like mankind and is having problems in the control area?? Doesn't add up. God does not control. That is why God will never intimidate or coerce your choices as mankind is constantly doing.

your quote:
You are insane if you think that everyone will acquire what they need to know to always make good choices. There is NO evidence that this is happening in the world. You are living in some kind of fantasy. There is a time limit because we only have so many years to live. My Answer:Look closely. No one goes an entire lifetime only to learn nothing. As for time limits. You could never learn all you need to learn in one mere lifetime. Learning has no time limit. Now I know it's important for so many just to have it made for eternity after one lifetime, however that will never be realistic because contrary to popular belief Eternity has Purpose.

your quote:You do not know anything about God. You believe in an imaginary god, one you made up to suit your fancy. You do not know what God needs. How could you ever know that? My Answer: Truth is not determined by fancy. It took a long time to understand God's system. Before understanding it, I could never have come up with it. It is true genius on all levels. The dynamics are simply amazing. I could never keep up with it all. I have discovered though that reality is better than all the religious stories put out by religion.

your quote:I do not have hate or wrath for anyone. My Answer: Since you have no wrath that would make you at a Higher Level than your god. Do you think that is possible for the Real God?

your quote:You are the one who is trying to control and rule others. My Answer: Stating or placing true in the world is not trying to control or rule others. I copy God when I make no demands at all on you. If you choose to stay in your box of beliefs and never stick your head out, that is your choice on your journey. Don't condemn me for shining a bit of light in your eyes. AS I see it, at some point a person is supposed to advance beyond the sum of their teachings especially those from childhood.

your quote:Of course there are problems in the world. Everyone can see that but you have your head in the sand. Do you watch and news on TV? My Answer: So much more knowledge exists beyond the surface. You will never understand until you dig deeper. A wise old man told me one time that even out of the worst tragedy something good comes from it. You must look at the entire picture not just the flash and the knee jerk judgments you have been conditioned to do.

 

[Bird123]

No it's a mathematical term that does not change with language used.



Different type of rules are being used. This is not a comparison to anything I said.



This has nothing to do with anything I said.

Once again, Language, parameters specified by mankind, interpreted by each of us with different views. God setting rules to control the actions of others delivering punishment through noncompliance does not exist. Better??

 

[Trailblazer]

My quote: God sets rules for humans because humans need rules.

Your Answer: God isn't setting rules for humans. Mankind is doing that. There are better ways, however it's going to take some time before mankind reaches that level of understanding.

No, Messengers of God are setting rules for humans, rules they got from God. There are no better ways. The Omniscient God knows the best way is to send Messengers.

My quote: You do not have to follow any teachings and laws from the Messengers of God, but it is undeniable that they were revealed by God.

Your Answer: I deny it that they came from God. Just read their holy book and you can see.

You can deny anything you want to but that won’t change Reality.

My quote: Only God should judge anyone, and He sure as heck does, because that comes with His job description.

Your Answer: Comes with the job description??????? Mankind's description no doubt. It surely does not exist in my description. There are Better ways than those petty things mankind holds so dear. You say you do not value those petty things. OK, but God does by your description??? Does not add up.

Your description of what God does is irrelevant because you have no way to know what God does, since you deny what the Messengers of God revealed.

Mankind does not hold these things dear. God holds them dear.

My quote: God does love unconditionally but God does not fix people. It is their job to fix themselves.

Your Answer: Unconditional Love always does what is Best for the other. Is it really in the kiddies best interest for God to abandon them by having no hand in their education?? I don't think so.

God has not abandoned anyone. God is the Educator. God sent Messengers to educate humanity.

“The Prophets and Messengers of God have been sent down for the sole purpose of guiding mankind to the straight Path of Truth. The purpose underlying Their revelation hath been to educate all men, that they may, at the hour of death, ascend, in the utmost purity and sanctity and with absolute detachment, to the throne of the Most High. The light which these souls radiate is responsible for the progress of the world and the advancement of its peoples.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 156-157​

My quote: We are not punished for not being perfect.

Your Answer; There you go having those petty things incorporated in your thinking. Don't you realize? It has never ever been about punishment!!

Just because you do not like the idea of punishment, that does not change reality. People are responsible for the free will choices they make and the ensuing actions. People need to be punished when they deserve punishment and rewarded when they deserve a reward. This is justice. There are rewards and punishments in this world and in the next.

“The Great Being saith: The structure of world stability and order hath been reared upon, and will continue to be sustained by, the twin pillars of reward and punishment…” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 219​

My quote: God does not hate anyone but God does have wrath.

Your Answer: What causes this wrath??? Is it because he is like mankind and is having problems in the control area?? Doesn't add up. God does not control. That is why God will never intimidate or coerce your choices as mankind is constantly doing.

God can control anything He wants to control because God is Omnipotent and has All Power. But God does not control free will choices people make and their ensuing actions. We have free will to make our own choices and actions.

God has mercy but also wrath. God’s mercy giving what we have not earned, what we do not deserve; God’s wrath is about giving what is deserved, according to our misdoings.

“He Who is the Eternal Truth knoweth well what the breasts of men conceal. His long forbearance hath emboldened His creatures, for not until the appointed time is come will He rend any veil asunder. His surpassing mercy hath restrained the fury of His wrath, and caused most people to imagine that the one true God is unaware of the things they have privily committed. By Him Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Informed! The mirror of His knowledge reflecteth, with complete distinctness, precision and fidelity, the doings of all men.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 204​

My quote: You are insane if you think that everyone will acquire what they need to know to always make good choices. There is NO evidence that this is happening in the world. You are living in some kind of fantasy. There is a time limit because we only have so many years to live.

Your Answer: Look closely. No one goes an entire lifetime only to learn nothing. As for time limits. You could never learn all you need to learn in one mere lifetime. Learning has no time limit. Now I know it's important for so many just to have it made for eternity after one lifetime, however that will never be realistic because contrary to popular belief Eternity has Purpose.

All people learn something but many people do not learn what they need to learn before they die. The learning in the afterlife is not the same as it is here because there will be no free will to make choices and change one’s character after they die. That is what this life is for, to build our character, acquire the spiritual attributes we will need in a spiritual world. After we die physically we will be essentially what we are when we left this world.

My quote: You do not know anything about God. You believe in an imaginary god, one you made up to suit your fancy. You do not know what God needs. How could you ever know that?

Your Answer: Truth is not determined by fancy. It took a long time to understand God's system. Before understanding it, I could never have come up with it. It is true genius on all levels. The dynamics are simply amazing. I could never keep up with it all. I have discovered though that reality is better than all the religious stories put out by religion.

God’s System is based upon the Messengers God sends to Educate humanity. What you imagine is not anything but what you imagine.

My quote: I do not have hate or wrath for anyone.

Your Answer: Since you have no wrath that would make you at a Higher Level than your god. Do you think that is possible for the Real God?

No, that would not make me on a higher level than God. These are just things you imagine about the Real God but you believe in an imaginary god, one you created in your own head.

My quote: You are the one who is trying to control and rule others.

Your Answer: Stating or placing true in the world is not trying to control or rule others. I copy God when I make no demands at all on you. If you choose to stay in your box of beliefs and never stick your head out, that is your choice on your journey. Don't condemn me for shining a bit of light in your eyes. AS I see it, at some point a person is supposed to advance beyond the sum of their teachings especially those from childhood.

You do not copy God because you do not know what God is doing. You just imagine that you do.

You have no Light to shine, because the Light of God comes through the Messengers of God, not through you. God recreates all things through Them in every age. The Light they radiate is responsible for the progress of the world and the advancement of its peoples.

“In every age and cycle He hath, through the splendorous light shed by the Manifestations of His wondrous Essence, recreated all things, so that whatsoever reflecteth in the heavens and on the earth the signs of His glory may not be deprived of the outpourings of His mercy, nor despair of the showers of His favors. How all-encompassing are the wonders of His boundless grace! Behold how they have pervaded the whole of creation.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 62​

My quote: Of course there are problems in the world. Everyone can see that but you have your head in the sand. Do you watch and news on TV?

Your Answer: So much more knowledge exists beyond the surface. You will never understand until you dig deeper. A wise old man told me one time that even out of the worst tragedy something good comes from it. You must look at the entire picture not just the flash and the knee jerk judgments you have been conditioned to do.

Maybe you should try that advice on yourself and look at what God has revealed through the latest Messenger.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

No, Messengers of God are setting rules for humans, rules they got from God. There are no better ways. The Omniscient God knows the best way is to send Messengers.

You can deny anything you want to but that won’t change Reality.

Your description of what God does is irrelevant because you have no way to know what God does, since you deny what the Messengers of God revealed.

Mankind does not hold these things dear. God holds them dear.

God has not abandoned anyone. God is the Educator. God sent Messengers to educate humanity.

“The Prophets and Messengers of God have been sent down for the sole purpose of guiding mankind to the straight Path of Truth. The purpose underlying Their revelation hath been to educate all men, that they may, at the hour of death, ascend, in the utmost purity and sanctity and with absolute detachment, to the throne of the Most High. The light which these souls radiate is responsible for the progress of the world and the advancement of its peoples.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 156-157​

Just because you do not like the idea of punishment, that does not change reality. People are responsible for the free will choices they make and the ensuing actions. People need to be punished when they deserve punishment and rewarded when they deserve a reward. This is justice. There are rewards and punishments in this world and in the next.

“The Great Being saith: The structure of world stability and order hath been reared upon, and will continue to be sustained by, the twin pillars of reward and punishment…” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 219​

God can control anything He wants to control because God is Omnipotent and has All Power. But God does not control free will choices people make and their ensuing actions. We have free will to make our own choices and actions.

God has mercy but also wrath. God’s mercy giving what we have not earned, what we do not deserve; God’s wrath is about giving what is deserved, according to our misdoings.

“He Who is the Eternal Truth knoweth well what the breasts of men conceal. His long forbearance hath emboldened His creatures, for not until the appointed time is come will He rend any veil asunder. His surpassing mercy hath restrained the fury of His wrath, and caused most people to imagine that the one true God is unaware of the things they have privily committed. By Him Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Informed! The mirror of His knowledge reflecteth, with complete distinctness, precision and fidelity, the doings of all men.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 204​

All people learn something but many people do not learn what they need to learn before they die. The learning in the afterlife is not the same as it is here because there will be no free will to make choices and change one’s character after they die. That is what this life is for, to build our character, acquire the spiritual attributes we will need in a spiritual world. After we die physically we will be essentially what we are when we left this world.

God’s System is based upon the Messengers God sends to Educate humanity. What you imagine is not anything but what you imagine.

No, that would not make me on a higher level than God. These are just things you imagine about the Real God but you believe in an imaginary god, one you created in your own head.

You do not copy God because you do not know what God is doing. You just imagine that you do.

You have no Light to shine, because the Light of God comes through the Messengers of God, not through you. God recreates all things through Them in every age. The Light they radiate is responsible for the progress of the world and the advancement of its peoples.

“In every age and cycle He hath, through the splendorous light shed by the Manifestations of His wondrous Essence, recreated all things, so that whatsoever reflecteth in the heavens and on the earth the signs of His glory may not be deprived of the outpourings of His mercy, nor despair of the showers of His favors. How all-encompassing are the wonders of His boundless grace! Behold how they have pervaded the whole of creation.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 62​

Maybe you should try that advice on yourself and look at what God has revealed through the latest Messenger.

How is it possible for any human to know the mind of a God? How can any human know who/what is a messenger from God? Extraordinary claims, require extraordinary proof. I think that there are people who need the emotional security of being led and told how to behave.

 

[Trailblazer]

How is it possible for any human to know the mind of a God? How can any human know who/what is a messenger from God? Extraordinary claims, require extraordinary proof. I think that there are people who need the emotional security of being led and told how to behave.

Nobody can know the mind of God but we can know the will of God, since the what the Messenger of God reveals is identical with the Will of God.

Some people are able to recognize the Messengers of God and some people are unable to do so...
God guides whoever He is pleased to guide, people He knows will recognize His Messenger. God already knows who will rebel and reject His Messenger so those people are not guided, since that would require overriding their free will choice to reject His Messenger.

"Some were guided by the Light of God, gained admittance into the court of His presence, and quaffed, from the hand of resignation, the waters of everlasting life, and were accounted of them that have truly recognized and believed in Him. Others rebelled against Him, and rejected the signs of God, the Most Powerful, the Almighty, the All-Wise.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 145​

 

[Shad]

Once again, Language, parameters specified by mankind, interpreted by each of us with different views. God setting rules to control the actions of others delivering punishment through noncompliance does not exist. Better??

This is nothing but sophistry used to dodge a point you can not counter. A circle has a specific definition no matter how many languages and dimensions you try to use to ignore this.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

Nobody can know the mind of God but we can know the will of God, since the what the Messenger of God reveals is identical with the Will of God.

Some people are able to recognize the Messengers of God and some people are unable to do so...
God guides whoever He is pleased to guide, people He knows will recognize His Messenger. God already knows who will rebel and reject His Messenger so those people are not guided, since that would require overriding their free will choice to reject His Messenger.

"Some were guided by the Light of God, gained admittance into the court of His presence, and quaffed, from the hand of resignation, the waters of everlasting life, and were accounted of them that have truly recognized and believed in Him. Others rebelled against Him, and rejected the signs of God, the Most Powerful, the Almighty, the All-Wise.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 145​

Sound a bit like another self-serving cop-out to me. If no one knows the mind of a God, then how would one know the will of a God. What evidence can you cite that this will is from God, and not a trickster, or the Devil? Why would a God need for us to understand His/Her will? There are a lot of suppositions you are making. How do you know that God chooses to guide only those who already believe in Him? How do you know what a God already knows? How do you know that the Messenger IS from a God? Why would a God need a messenger in the first place?

We are mortals. We were never meant to rub shoulders with an OMNI Entity, or It's representative. If a God truly does exist, why would He/she care about us. If you were a God in our vast Universe, what would make us so important to you? At least our vote makes us the equal to those in power. But what exactly can we offer a God that would be of any importance to him? Maybe you can establish the signs that a God does exists first? Writings by mortals, don't count.

 

[Trailblazer]

Sound a bit like another self-serving cop-out to me. If no one knows the mind of a God, then how would one know the will of a God. What evidence can you cite that this will is from God, and not a trickster, or the Devil? Why would a God need for us to understand His/Her will? There are a lot of suppositions you are making. How do you know that God chooses to guide only those who already believe in Him? How do you know what a God already knows? How do you know that the Messenger IS from a God? Why would a God need a messenger in the first place?

We are mortals. We were never meant to rub shoulders with an OMNI Entity, or It's representative. If a God truly does exist, why would He/she care about us. If you were a God in our vast Universe, what would make us so important to you? At least our vote makes us the equal to those in power. But what exactly can we offer a God that would be of any importance to him? Maybe you can establish the signs that a God does exists first? Writings by mortals, don't count.

There was nothing self-serving about what Baha’u’llah did. Everything He did He did for the sake of God.

The mind of God is different from the will of God. Nobody knows how the mind of God functions because the intrinsic nature of God is unknowable, even to the Messengers. All they hear is God’s Voice.

The evidence that the Messenger is not a trickster is His Life, His character, what He did on His Mission, all the sacrifices He made and all the suffering He endured, what He wrote, and the religion He established.

God knows what humanity needs in every age of history. God wants us to know His will for us because God loves us and wants to guide us in our spiritual and material development. What is revealed to the Messenger is identical with the will of God.

It is not that God needs anything from humans. God does not need anything because God is fully self-sufficient, above needs that creatures have. But God created us out of love, so God wants what is best for us.

God guides those who want to believe in Him. God is All-Knowing so God knows who will choose to believe in Him before they make that choice. God cannot guide those people He knows will rebel against Him since that would require taking away their free will choices.

You are right. We humans were never meant to rub shoulders with God. That is precisely why God sends a Messenger on His behalf. All the Messenger does is receive a message from God and reveal that message to humanity. He does not rub shoulders with God.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

There was nothing self-serving about what Baha’u’llah did. Everything He did He did for the sake of God.

The mind of God is different from the will of God. Nobody knows how the mind of God functions because the intrinsic nature of God is unknowable, even to the Messengers. All they hear is God’s Voice.

The evidence that the Messenger is not a trickster is His Life, His character, what He did on His Mission, all the sacrifices He made and all the suffering He endured, what He wrote, and the religion He established.

God knows what humanity needs in every age of history. God wants us to know His will for us because God loves us and wants to guide us in our spiritual and material development. What is revealed to the Messenger is identical with the will of God.

It is not that God needs anything from humans. God does not need anything because God is fully self-sufficient, above needs that creatures have. But God created us out of love, so God wants what is best for us.

God guides those who want to believe in Him. God is All-Knowing so God knows who will choose to believe in Him before they make that choice. God cannot guide those people He knows will rebel against Him since that would require taking away their free will choices.

You are right. We humans were never meant to rub shoulders with God. That is precisely why God sends a Messenger on His behalf. All the Messenger does is receive a message from God and reveal that message to humanity. He does not rub shoulders with God.

There was nothing self-serving about what Baha’u’llah did. Everything He did He did for the sake of God.

I never said that what the Baha’u’llah did in His life was self-serving. I never heard of him, but I'm sure he is a nice guy. I was speaking only about the truth claims YOU were making. So please, no more straw man. Lets just stick to what I actually do say. It is very difficult to maintain a logical discourse, when your entire argument is based on one unsupported truth claim after another.

God needs nothing from us
God knows what humans need
God has suffered and sacrificed for us
God is self-sufficient
God created us out of love
God wants the best for us
Gods intrinsic nature is unknowable
God does not guide people who rebel against him
God refuses to take away our free will
God has a job description
God does not rub shoulders with humans
God sent a messenger to represent himself, and his will (?)
EVERYTHING that the messenger does, he does for God (?)
Only those chosen by God can recognize His messenger
All that the Messengers hear is the voice of God
There is no "free will" in the afterlife
God gives the Messengers rules that humans must follow

I think you get the point. These unsupported truth claims are supported only by more unsupported truth claims. Are there any objective facts to support any of these claims? It is very difficult to assert all this about a God, and still make the claim that you don't know the mind of a God. There any many, many, many great people in the world, who have sacrificed their lives for their country, and for the betterment of humanity, yet these people are not called Messengers of a God. Or, is a Messenger with rules for humans to follow, only limited to your faith? I sincerely hope that in the future, you might simply address at least one of your claims. I'm sorry, I just can't imagine a world, where people could be this gullible. Or, would blindly follow rules that a good MAN claims he received from a God. You are certainly correct, only a few are chosen.

 

[Trailblazer]

I never said that what the Baha’u’llah did in His life was self-serving. I never heard of him, but I'm sure he is a nice guy. I was speaking only about the truth claims YOU were making. So please, no more straw man. Lets just stick to what I actually do say.

You said: “Sound a bit like another self-serving cop-out to me.”

I thought you were referring to Baha’u’llah so it was an honest mistake, not a straw man. So who is self-serving and what is the cop-out?

It is very difficult to maintain a logical discourse, when your entire argument is based on one unsupported truth claim after another.

God needs nothing from us
God knows what humans need
God has suffered and sacrificed for us
God is self-sufficient
God created us out of love
God wants the best for us
Gods intrinsic nature is unknowable
God does not guide people who rebel against him
God refuses to take away our free will
God has a job description
God does not rub shoulders with humans
God sent a messenger to represent himself, and his will (?)
EVERYTHING that the messenger does, he does for God (?)
Only those chosen by God can recognize His messenger
All that the Messengers hear is the voice of God
There is no "free will" in the afterlife
God gives the Messengers rules that humans must follow

I think you get the point. These unsupported truth claims are supported only by more unsupported truth claims. Are there any objective facts to support any of these claims? It is very difficult to assert all this about a God, and still make the claim that you don't know the mind of a God.

The “premise” upon which these truth claims are based is that Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation of God who got a revelation from God and that what Baha’u’llah revealed in His Writings is identical with the will of God. Obviously, if you do not accept the premise you are not going to accept the conclusions (truth claims).

We cannot know everything that is in the mind of God but we can know what God was thinking when He spoke to Baha’u’llah, which is what Baha’u’llah wrote down. That is what I referred to as the will of God. If Baha’u’llah spoke for God then whatever He wrote about God is what God revealed to Baha’u’llah about Himself.

There any many, many, many great people in the world, who have sacrificed their lives for their country, and for the betterment of humanity, yet these people are not called Messengers of a God. Or, is a Messenger with rules for humans to follow, only limited to your faith? I sincerely hope that in the future, you might simply address at least one of your claims. I'm sorry, I just can't imagine a world, where people could be this gullible. Or, would blindly follow rules that a good MAN claims he received from a God. You are certainly correct, only a few are chosen.

No, Messengers of God (Manifestations of God) are not limited to the Baha’i Faith. They have been sent by God from the dawn of human history. The most recent that preceded the Bab and Baha’u’llah were Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. Show me any men who have done what these men did and who are still worshipped by millions of people all over the world after thousands of years. Who are the men you speak of who have sacrificed their lives for the betterment of all of humanity? Why don’t people believe that they were Messengers (Prophets) of God?

“What then is the mission of the divine prophets? Their mission is the education and advancement of the world of humanity. They are the real teachers and educators, the universal instructors of mankind. If we wish to discover whether any one of these great souls or messengers was in reality a prophet of God we must investigate the facts surrounding His life and history; and the first point of our investigation will be the education He bestowed upon mankind. If He has been an educator, if He has really trained a nation or people, causing it to rise from the lowest depths of ignorance to the highest station of knowledge, then we are sure that He was a prophet. This is a plain and clear method of procedure, proof that is irrefutable. We do not need to seek after other proofs.” Bahá’í World Faith, p. 273​