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Featured Proving Yeshua as the Messiah

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by wizanda, Feb 16, 2018.

  1. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    History (verifiable facts) vs opinion (today).

    I agree.
     
  2. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    I have some historical events we can all see but if I present them you will find some reason not to see them...
    That is how this works. Everyone believes they know the truth and they all have scriptures to prove it... :rolleyes:
    Are you actually saying that Christians and Jews do not have biases? ;)

    Baha’is are not the ones who try to make things fit because we have no expectations, since we know what already happened. It either fits what happened or it does not fit what happened. This is easily determined by comparing the prophecies with the events that happened.

    It is the Jews and Christians who have expectations, since they are expecting something to happen a certain way. So, they interpret the prophecies to fit what they are expecting to happen. But they all have completely different interpretations of the same prophecies and they all believe that only they are right. It amazes me. :D

    You all think that they can mean only one thing but you attribute different meanings to them so logically speaking that means they can mean more than one thing. ;)

    Some of these prophecies can mean only one thing yet it amazes me the things they come up with that have nothing to do with their meaning and cannot be made to fit, such as Isaiah 53 being about Israel when it is clearly about the Messiah.
    I read those verses and I see no place where it says that there will no longer be death.

    Do you believe that this has a literal interpretation such that lions will eat straw and wolfs will lie with the lamb?
    You said the scriptures are specific. Where in the scriptures does it say that the Messiah will be the one who creates world peace?

    I asked you if there are any scriptures that specify the exact time.
    What do you mean by throne, a physical throne with God sitting on it? What scriptures do you have that say this? I am all about the evidence. :)
    What do you mean by Tribes? Sorry, I am not well versed in the Bible.

    I did read these verses and it seems to me they just mean that the Jews will return to their homeland. If you are waiting to see every little detail in these verses be fulfilled you are going to be waiting till hell freezes over. Prophecies are not written that way. That is so obvious, because we know every detail of the OT that refers to Jesus did not happen exactly as written but rather there is a lot of symbolism.
    I agree with that. I believe that Jesus was a Messenger of God (Prophet) that came to prepare the way for the Messiah, but He never claimed to be “the Messiah” of the latter days and He never promised to return.

    So what do you follow?
     
  3. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    So because Jesus did none of these things you can say that Jesus is not the Messiah, but as you must know, Christians claim that Jesus will do these things when He returns.

    I do not known what chapters of Ezekiel you are referring to. Does it actually talk about a physical temple being constructed, a building?
    But where do the scriptures actually say everyone will know from the start of the Messianic Age?

    Why do you think all the events of the Messianic Age will happen within the lifetime of the Messiah?

    Do you believe that the Messianic Age refers to the age during which the Messiah is alive on earth and then after that there will be nothing left to do?

    Do you think that the Messiah himself will singlehandedly accomplish these tasks with no help from other humans? How is that even possible? I mean how could a permanent world peace be established without the cooperation of world leaders and governments?

    The way I see it, if the Messiah is just a man and not a God, there is no way He alone could accomplish all of this (I have the list from some Jewish posters on another forum) within his lifetime. Moreover, humans do not change that fast; history proves that drastic changes such as these evolve over time. That is why it is called the “Messianic Age.”

    Where in the scriptures does it even say that the Messiah would do any of these things himself?

    Where in the scriptures does it say that these things will all happen within the lifetime of the Messiah?
     
  4. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    John being a trustworthy Gospel when it was in Greek, then Latin, and limited to only Elites ever reading it... Is not a Verifiable fact; we've only had the Bible to read in the last few hundred years.
    I'm willing to look at any argument, and will test it all pragmatically.
    Nope was saying everyone has personal biases... Yet i've not got any of your religious presuppositions, and thus am trying to rationally understand what the text says, not what i want it to fit with.
    I agree with this statement, based on we can show that Isaiah 52:10 says Yeshaut Eloheinu is the Servant who appears as the son of man.... Plus almost all the contexts in Isaiah 53 don't make sense being Israel.
    On its own no, yet when we take into account that in Zoroastrian, Hindu, Islamic text, Isaiah 25:8, Daniel 12:2, Ezekiel 37:12-14, Isaiah 26:19, Revelation 21:4 say the same that death is to be removed...

    Then the idea presented in Isaiah 65:17-25, Revelation 21:1-5, Zoroastrian, Islamic, and possibly Hindu texts, is there is a whole new reality created first, and the old one is removed; thus it is possible to then read that verse literally in that context.
    Isaiah 2:4 He will judge between the nations, and will decide concerning many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

    Ezekiel 34:24-25 I, Yahweh, will be their God, and my servant David prince among them. I, Yahweh, have spoken it. (25) “‘I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause evil animals to cease out of the land. They will dwell securely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods.
    The timeline is the Messiah comes just before the Battle of Armageddon, our world is ruined, and God steps in to recreate it....Thus it is God who brings the world peace, the Messiah just ushers it in.
    Revelation 20:11-12 I saw a great white throne, and him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. There was found no place for them. (12) I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and they opened books. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works.

    This is repeated throughout the whole Bible, and multiple other cultures, that God is seen sitting on a throne by many...

    Like you should do a Bible word search with a copy of E-sword Bible software, as there are too many references to list.
    There were 12 tribes of Israel; which means the 12 sons of Jacob created whole tribes, which created nations.
    Actually i've found a very precise case, and will often dismiss all the shoddy work by many... Like for example every part of Zechariah 11 is to the letter.
    Yeshua said he was the Messiah, just that the time for the Messiah is to come in the Messianic age.
    I follow Oneness, there is only One God, all religions are One.
    It is in chapters of Ezekiel 40-47... Yet it doesn't say about being built, it says about the dimensions as if it already exists, and as an example of what could be.
    Like most of your questions would be answered on reading them properly; especially the prophets, Gospels, Revelation.

    Also that most of those questions will be answered, when you realize this reality is to be removed by Holy Fire according to Hindu, Zoroastrian, Hebraic, American Indian, Islamic, texts.

    In my opinion.
    :innocent:
     
    #44 wizanda, Feb 18, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2018
  5. Rival

    Rival Noahide
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    There is nothing about moshiach having to return to accomplish his job a second time. That's a total Christian idea. That has nothing to do with Jewish thought.

    Yes, a physical Temple. From chapter 40 pretty much to the end of the book.

    Jeremiah 31:34

    They will not teach again, each man his neighbour and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”


    Ezichiel 37:28


    And the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever.

    Because he will have to usher them in.


    People will be spiritual and not material; they will be connecting themselves to HaShem. A lot of life will continue as normal, but it will be godly and not evil.



    I do not know how it will pan-out.


    Moshiach is just a man. G-d is not a man, heaven forbid.


    It doesn't say he will do them all himself.

    It doesn't but it can be inferred from reading the text that a great King and Teacher will emerge who will usher in the messianic age.
     
    #45 Rival, Feb 18, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2018
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  6. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Daniel 12:11-12 “From the time that the continual burnt offering is taken away, and the abomination that makes desolate set up, there will be one thousand two hundred ninety days. (12) Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred thirty-five days.

    Daniel 9:26-27 After the sixty-two weeks the Anointed One will be cut off, and will have nothing. The people of the prince who come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end will be with a flood, and war will be even to the end. Desolations are determined. (27) He will make a firm covenant with many for one week. In the middle of the week he will cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease. On the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate; and even to the full end, and that determined, wrath will be poured out on the desolate.”

    Yeshua fulfilled Daniel 9:26 as the OP related, and thus the timeline is specific; that there shall be a time for all the things to be fulfilled (Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7).

    That is only a start of the magnitude of references in the Tanakh explaining the Snare, and the Curse in detail; which shall be spread over the whole world before Judgement comes (Isaiah 24, Isaiah 34).

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  7. Jean Valjean

    Jean Valjean Member

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    To be concise with jewish schoolars, one question - Who work at the city hall in Jerusalem?
     
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  8. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Sorry don't understand the question or why we would want to be concise by Jewish Scholars; Zechariah 12:4 and Isaiah 29:9-14 says they've been confounded on purpose.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  9. Rival

    Rival Noahide
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    You've stumped both Wiz and me. Good one.
     
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  10. Jean Valjean

    Jean Valjean Member

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    Why do you put my fellow brothers in Christ under darkness... who brought peace to the earth??
     
  11. Rival

    Rival Noahide
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    Brought peace??

    Where? Show me where it is, this peace.
     
  12. Jean Valjean

    Jean Valjean Member

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  13. Jean Valjean

    Jean Valjean Member

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    Throw out the tv and live with it... and for the money, who gave christians everything... Milton or Jesus???
     
  14. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Paul, John and Simon led people into darkness, claiming it was light... Whereas I'm trying to redirect people back towards the light.
    Yeshua came to bring division and a sword (Matthew 10:34)... John, Paul, and Simon said he brought peace, which is utter rubbish, as soon after the 2nd temple was destroyed horrifically (Luke 19:41-44).
    Daniel 9:27 He shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease; and on the wing of abominations [shall come] one who makes desolate; and even to the full end, and that determined, wrath shall be poured out on the desolate.

    This proves Yeshua is Messiah, as the things happened because of him, and not like he caused it all, the fake prophesied Christian church did.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  15. Rival

    Rival Noahide
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    I don't use a T.V.

    What are you talking about?
     
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  16. Jean Valjean

    Jean Valjean Member

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    Peace on earth, an everlasting peace!!!

    why can't military fabrics fabricate weapons other then hunting rifles and soft airguns??? why do police officers use bullets out of gum, rubber and plastics???
     
  17. Rival

    Rival Noahide
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    I give up.
     
  18. Jean Valjean

    Jean Valjean Member

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    This peace is everywhere... IMAGINE THAT!
     
  19. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Also not had a Tell-Lies-Vision for at least 13 years since canceling my TV license; since they insisted on a reason for canceling, told them "it was full of propaganda, and didn't need to be made to feel on a roller-coaster".
    • You're paraphrasing the fake Gospel of John 10:10, where it uses the term 'abundant'.
    • Which is used in Isaiah 56:10-12 where it says the fake teachers of Judaism (John, Paul, Simon) have miseducated the world by saying Yeshua came to die for people's sins, thus we have life more 'abundant'.
    • Which is then quoting from Isaiah 53:6, where we're all like 'sheep who have gone astray'.
    Thus John is purposefully there to catch out hypocrites, who don't pay attention to context; as it is too concise structurally, to be by random chance on so many occasions.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
    #59 wizanda, Feb 18, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2018
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  20. Jean Valjean

    Jean Valjean Member

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    So Arnold Schwartzenegger would run up for a candidate in your description for all I know!
     
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