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Proving Yeshua as the Messiah

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Did you read the OP? Neither of them are right, they both don't pay proper attention to all context.
Because the Bible is like computer code in some places, intertextually linking to show that the answers are confirmed by historical events, and things we can all see.
I have some historical events we can all see but if I present them you will find some reason not to see them...
That is how this works. Everyone believes they know the truth and they all have scriptures to prove it... :rolleyes:
Trailblazer said: I am sure you are well aware of the fact that Christians do not interpret the same scriptures you are reading the same way Jews interpret them.

Wizanda said: This is because most people have some personal biases to serve.... Especially Bahais who seem to make everything fit with their own religious expectations of prophetic events.
Are you actually saying that Christians and Jews do not have biases? ;)

Baha’is are not the ones who try to make things fit because we have no expectations, since we know what already happened. It either fits what happened or it does not fit what happened. This is easily determined by comparing the prophecies with the events that happened.

It is the Jews and Christians who have expectations, since they are expecting something to happen a certain way. So, they interpret the prophecies to fit what they are expecting to happen. But they all have completely different interpretations of the same prophecies and they all believe that only they are right. It amazes me. :D

You all think that they can mean only one thing but you attribute different meanings to them so logically speaking that means they can mean more than one thing. ;)

Some of these prophecies can mean only one thing yet it amazes me the things they come up with that have nothing to do with their meaning and cannot be made to fit, such as Isaiah 53 being about Israel when it is clearly about the Messiah.
Trailblazer said: In the messianic age everyone will know, but at what time during the messianic age will everyone know? Are there any scriptures that specify the exact time?

wizanda said: The Messianic Age is literally a new reality, where there is no longer death, lions will eat straw, wolfs will lie with the lamb (Isaiah 65:17-25).
I read those verses and I see no place where it says that there will no longer be death.

Do you believe that this has a literal interpretation such that lions will eat straw and wolfs will lie with the lamb?
Unfortunately and sorry to say this, as i've got respect for Baha'ullah's efforts at trying to create world peace; yet he wasn't the things he claimed, as these things have not taken place, and the scriptures are specific in multiple places.
You said the scriptures are specific. Where in the scriptures does it say that the Messiah will be the one who creates world peace?

I asked you if there are any scriptures that specify the exact time.
As just replied to Rival, the temple is the throne of God come down here from Heaven... Not something built with human hands.
What do you mean by throne, a physical throne with God sitting on it? What scriptures do you have that say this? I am all about the evidence. :)
The Israelite Tribes will be reunited under the Messiah King.
This is repeated in multiple places:
Isaiah 11:12, Jeremiah 23:3, Jeremiah 23:8, Jeremiah 31:8, Ezekiel 28:25, Ezekiel 11:17, Zechariah 10:6-12, Psalms 147:2, etc...
Tho read the whole of Ezekiel 34, as that specifically explains the Messiahs arrival, and gathering of all the Tribes.
What do you mean by Tribes? Sorry, I am not well versed in the Bible.

I did read these verses and it seems to me they just mean that the Jews will return to their homeland. If you are waiting to see every little detail in these verses be fulfilled you are going to be waiting till hell freezes over. Prophecies are not written that way. That is so obvious, because we know every detail of the OT that refers to Jesus did not happen exactly as written but rather there is a lot of symbolism.
Trailblazer said: Christians believe that Jesus is the Messiah.

wizanda said: This is because they've followed the fake texts of John, Paul and Simon the stone (petros); thus have been told the Messiah already came, when Yeshua himself said it is to be a future event at the coming of the Messianic Age, and not before it.

I agree with that. I believe that Jesus was a Messenger of God (Prophet) that came to prepare the way for the Messiah, but He never claimed to be “the Messiah” of the latter days and He never promised to return.

So what do you follow?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Because Jesus did none of these things. There are chapters of Ezichiel dedicated to the Temple construction. In Ezichiel 37: 21-22 we have the prophecy of the tribes being united under a Davidic King (moshiach).
So because Jesus did none of these things you can say that Jesus is not the Messiah, but as you must know, Christians claim that Jesus will do these things when He returns.

I do not known what chapters of Ezekiel you are referring to. Does it actually talk about a physical temple being constructed, a building?
From the start of the messianic age everyone shall know because that is the point of the messianic age. The messiah ushers in the messianic age wherein all these things shall happen. As the messiah will only live for as long as everyone else then all these things must happen within a human lifetime.
But where do the scriptures actually say everyone will know from the start of the Messianic Age?

Why do you think all the events of the Messianic Age will happen within the lifetime of the Messiah?

Do you believe that the Messianic Age refers to the age during which the Messiah is alive on earth and then after that there will be nothing left to do?

Do you think that the Messiah himself will singlehandedly accomplish these tasks with no help from other humans? How is that even possible? I mean how could a permanent world peace be established without the cooperation of world leaders and governments?

The way I see it, if the Messiah is just a man and not a God, there is no way He alone could accomplish all of this (I have the list from some Jewish posters on another forum) within his lifetime. Moreover, humans do not change that fast; history proves that drastic changes such as these evolve over time. That is why it is called the “Messianic Age.”

Where in the scriptures does it even say that the Messiah would do any of these things himself?

Where in the scriptures does it say that these things will all happen within the lifetime of the Messiah?
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
History (verifiable facts) vs opinion (today).
John being a trustworthy Gospel when it was in Greek, then Latin, and limited to only Elites ever reading it... Is not a Verifiable fact; we've only had the Bible to read in the last few hundred years.
I have some historical events we can all see but if I present them you will find some reason not to see them...
I'm willing to look at any argument, and will test it all pragmatically.
Are you actually saying that Christians and Jews do not have biases? ;)
Nope was saying everyone has personal biases... Yet i've not got any of your religious presuppositions, and thus am trying to rationally understand what the text says, not what i want it to fit with.
such as Isaiah 53 being about Israel when it is clearly about the Messiah.
I agree with this statement, based on we can show that Isaiah 52:10 says Yeshaut Eloheinu is the Servant who appears as the son of man.... Plus almost all the contexts in Isaiah 53 don't make sense being Israel.
Do you believe that this has a literal interpretation such that lions will eat straw and wolfs will lie with the lamb?
On its own no, yet when we take into account that in Zoroastrian, Hindu, Islamic text, Isaiah 25:8, Daniel 12:2, Ezekiel 37:12-14, Isaiah 26:19, Revelation 21:4 say the same that death is to be removed...

Then the idea presented in Isaiah 65:17-25, Revelation 21:1-5, Zoroastrian, Islamic, and possibly Hindu texts, is there is a whole new reality created first, and the old one is removed; thus it is possible to then read that verse literally in that context.
Where in the scriptures does it say that the Messiah will be the one who creates world peace?
Isaiah 2:4 He will judge between the nations, and will decide concerning many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Ezekiel 34:24-25 I, Yahweh, will be their God, and my servant David prince among them. I, Yahweh, have spoken it. (25) “‘I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause evil animals to cease out of the land. They will dwell securely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods.
I asked you if there are any scriptures that specify the exact time.
The timeline is the Messiah comes just before the Battle of Armageddon, our world is ruined, and God steps in to recreate it....Thus it is God who brings the world peace, the Messiah just ushers it in.
What do you mean by throne, a physical throne with God sitting on it?
Revelation 20:11-12 I saw a great white throne, and him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. There was found no place for them. (12) I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and they opened books. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works.

This is repeated throughout the whole Bible, and multiple other cultures, that God is seen sitting on a throne by many...

Like you should do a Bible word search with a copy of E-sword Bible software, as there are too many references to list.
What do you mean by Tribes?
There were 12 tribes of Israel; which means the 12 sons of Jacob created whole tribes, which created nations.
That is so obvious, because we know every detail of the OT that refers to Jesus did not happen exactly as written but rather there is a lot of symbolism.
Actually i've found a very precise case, and will often dismiss all the shoddy work by many... Like for example every part of Zechariah 11 is to the letter.
I believe that Jesus was a Messenger of God (Prophet) that came to prepare the way for the Messiah, but He never claimed to be “the Messiah”
Yeshua said he was the Messiah, just that the time for the Messiah is to come in the Messianic age.
So what do you follow?
I follow Oneness, there is only One God, all religions are One.
Does it actually talk about a physical temple being constructed, a building?
It is in chapters of Ezekiel 40-47... Yet it doesn't say about being built, it says about the dimensions as if it already exists, and as an example of what could be.
Where in the scriptures does it say
Like most of your questions would be answered on reading them properly; especially the prophets, Gospels, Revelation.

Also that most of those questions will be answered, when you realize this reality is to be removed by Holy Fire according to Hindu, Zoroastrian, Hebraic, American Indian, Islamic, texts.

In my opinion.
:innocent:
 
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Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
So because Jesus did none of these things you can say that Jesus is not the Messiah, but as you must know, Christians claim that Jesus will do these things when He returns.
There is nothing about moshiach having to return to accomplish his job a second time. That's a total Christian idea. That has nothing to do with Jewish thought.

I do not known what chapters of Ezekiel you are referring to. Does it actually talk about a physical temple being constructed, a building?
Yes, a physical Temple. From chapter 40 pretty much to the end of the book.

But where do the scriptures actually say everyone will know from the start of the Messianic Age?
Jeremiah 31:34

They will not teach again, each man his neighbour and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”


Ezichiel 37:28


And the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever.

Why do you think all the events of the Messianic Age will happen within the lifetime of the Messiah?

Because he will have to usher them in.

Do you believe that the Messianic Age refers to the age during which the Messiah is alive on earth and then after that there will be nothing left to do?

People will be spiritual and not material; they will be connecting themselves to HaShem. A lot of life will continue as normal, but it will be godly and not evil.


Do you think that the Messiah himself will singlehandedly accomplish these tasks with no help from other humans? How is that even possible? I mean how could a permanent world peace be established without the cooperation of world leaders and governments?

I do not know how it will pan-out.


The way I see it, if the Messiah is just a man and not a God, there is no way He alone could accomplish all of this (I have the list from some Jewish posters on another forum) within his lifetime. Moreover, humans do not change that fast; history proves that drastic changes such as these evolve over time. That is why it is called the “Messianic Age.”

Moshiach is just a man. G-d is not a man, heaven forbid.

Where in the scriptures does it even say that the Messiah would do any of these things himself?

Where in the scriptures does it say that these things will all happen within the lifetime of the Messiah?

It doesn't say he will do them all himself.

It doesn't but it can be inferred from reading the text that a great King and Teacher will emerge who will usher in the messianic age.
 
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wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
There is nothing about Messiah having to return to accomplish his job a second time.
Daniel 12:11-12 “From the time that the continual burnt offering is taken away, and the abomination that makes desolate set up, there will be one thousand two hundred ninety days. (12) Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred thirty-five days.

Daniel 9:26-27 After the sixty-two weeks the Anointed One will be cut off, and will have nothing. The people of the prince who come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end will be with a flood, and war will be even to the end. Desolations are determined. (27) He will make a firm covenant with many for one week. In the middle of the week he will cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease. On the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate; and even to the full end, and that determined, wrath will be poured out on the desolate.”

Yeshua fulfilled Daniel 9:26 as the OP related, and thus the timeline is specific; that there shall be a time for all the things to be fulfilled (Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7).

That is only a start of the magnitude of references in the Tanakh explaining the Snare, and the Curse in detail; which shall be spread over the whole world before Judgement comes (Isaiah 24, Isaiah 34).

In my opinion. :innocent:
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
To be concise with jewish schoolars, one question - Who work at the city hall in Jerusalem?
Sorry don't understand the question or why we would want to be concise by Jewish Scholars; Zechariah 12:4 and Isaiah 29:9-14 says they've been confounded on purpose.

In my opinion. :innocent:
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Why do you put my fellow brothers in Christ under darkness...
Paul, John and Simon led people into darkness, claiming it was light... Whereas I'm trying to redirect people back towards the light.
who brought peace to the earth??
Yeshua came to bring division and a sword (Matthew 10:34)... John, Paul, and Simon said he brought peace, which is utter rubbish, as soon after the 2nd temple was destroyed horrifically (Luke 19:41-44).
Brought peace??

Where?
Daniel 9:27 He shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease; and on the wing of abominations [shall come] one who makes desolate; and even to the full end, and that determined, wrath shall be poured out on the desolate.

This proves Yeshua is Messiah, as the things happened because of him, and not like he caused it all, the fake prophesied Christian church did.

In my opinion. :innocent:
 
Peace on earth, an everlasting peace!!!

why can't military fabrics fabricate weapons other then hunting rifles and soft airguns??? why do police officers use bullets out of gum, rubber and plastics???
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Peace on earth, an everlasting peace!!!

why can't military fabrics fabricate weapons other then hunting rifles and soft airguns??? why do police officers use bullets out of gum, rubber and plastics???
I give up.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
I don't use a T.V.
Also not had a Tell-Lies-Vision for at least 13 years since canceling my TV license; since they insisted on a reason for canceling, told them "it was full of propaganda, and didn't need to be made to feel on a roller-coaster".
who gave christians everything... Milton or Jesus???
  • You're paraphrasing the fake Gospel of John 10:10, where it uses the term 'abundant'.
  • Which is used in Isaiah 56:10-12 where it says the fake teachers of Judaism (John, Paul, Simon) have miseducated the world by saying Yeshua came to die for people's sins, thus we have life more 'abundant'.
  • Which is then quoting from Isaiah 53:6, where we're all like 'sheep who have gone astray'.
Thus John is purposefully there to catch out hypocrites, who don't pay attention to context; as it is too concise structurally, to be by random chance on so many occasions.

In my opinion. :innocent:
 
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