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Featured Proving Yeshua as the Messiah

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by wizanda, Feb 16, 2018.

  1. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Lets start with the word 'Messiah' or 'Anointed' within the Tanakh, which we find in Daniel 9:26, and Isaiah 52:14 in the dead sea scrolls version, where there is an additional yod on the word blemished, making it 'anointed'.

    Thus these are the only specific references to an 'anointed one'; people who like to take all the best bits about the Messianic age, and then apply them to the Messiah are not being logically consistent.

    In both these texts the person is cut off from the land of the living, and thus the Messiah is to be murdered; which then causes a chain of events that interlink with these passages.

    Daniel 9:2 quotes it is referencing Jeremiah, and the 70 years in Babylon, which we find in Jeremiah 25:1-14... As we continue through Daniel 9:20-27 the end concurs with Jeremiah 25:30-38.

    So they both say 70 years in Babylon, we return, rebuild, Messiah comes, is Murdered, and then we're cut off according to Jeremiah...

    Jeremiah 25:30-38 uses very specific keywords that we also find in Zechariah 11 ('wailing of the shepherds', 'flock for slaughter', etc).

    Zechariah 11:8 also says that the person is abhorred by the leaders of the people, as we find in Isaiah 53:3.

    So the Messiah will come challenge the leaders, be rejected, put to death for 30 pieces of silver, which shall be put into the potters field in the house of Israel; this then nullifies the covenants, which allows for the 2nd temple destruction, and diaspora.

    Next to establish why the covenants could be broken, and who the Messiah is, we need to take a step back.

    H3444 + H7200 = Exodus 14:13, Psalms 98:3, Isaiah 52:10 (2 Chronicles 20:17 Jehoshaphat Vs Ammon)

    Here we see that YHVH can be 'seen' as our 'salvation' (Yeshua); and given that in Isaiah 52:10 we have Yeshuat Eloheinu, which means the salvation of our God, where the roots are Yeshua Elohim this then makes sense why in Isaiah 52:13-14, it is making clear that the Divine Servant appears as a son of man.

    H3444 + H1961 = Exodus 15:2-3, Psalms 118:14-21, Isaiah 12:2 (2 Samuel 10:11 David Vs Ammon)

    The idea that YHVH would 'become' 'Yeshua' existed back to Moses, and then David in Psalms 118:14-21 places the Chief Corner Stone that the Builders reject in the middle of the references.

    What shocks me, is the amount of times it calls our God derivatives of to save (Yesha), and thus it is very easy to understand that Yeshua as a concept existed in the Tanakh before the NT.

    In the NT the Parable of the Wicked Husbandmen is the one parable in all Synoptic Gospels, it interlinks these prophetic events; yet not as most people understand it, as they've missed the additional contexts.

    Isaiah 5 + Isaiah 28:9-19 (Ezekiel 1-7) = Isaiah 53 + Zechariah 11 = Jeremiah 25 + Daniel 9 = The Parable of Wicked Husbandmen

    The parable is based on Isaiah 5, where the Lord comes to test if the people love him or his Vineyard. Due to the timelines already presented, this is before the 2nd temple destruction; and as Isaiah 5:13 says my people are cut off for lack of knowledge, which this explanation is showing.

    Now here comes the crux of the whole matter, Isaiah 53:1 says who would have 'believed' the 'rumor'; a rumor on its own, can be true, false or null; yet when we put the word belief before it, it should make it so far fetched how can anyone believe it.

    Isaiah 53 defiles the Law in multiple places, and the idea people just accept it as being Kosher is sickening; thus you'd think people would look for additional contexts...

    If we search Isaiah for rumor (H8052), we find that there are two in Isaiah 28:9-19 where it creates a symbolic Bed in a chiastic structure (Isaiah 28:20), and in the middle of the Bed of Adultery is the Chief Corner Stone (Isaiah 28:16), which Yeshua stated at the end of the Parable of the Wicked Husbandmen, where it is telling us to take our time understanding this.

    The Bed of Adultery (Revelation 2:22) explains that the covenant with death, that shall be established due to Isaiah 53, shall come to nothing, as it is a defilement of the Law. In Isaiah 28:13 it explains that this shall be as a Snare to capture by a Line, which runs to Isaiah 34 to remove the ravenous beings in one go.

    These same keyword used of 'snared' and 'captured' are in Isaiah 8, where it talks of Immanuel being the rock of salvation, that is rejected by our people unknowingly (Isaiah 17:9-10).

    Ezekiel 7:26 understood the rumor on rumor of Isaiah 28, and has the same timeline of the 2nd temple destruction, and diaspora. In Ezekiel 4 we're cut off because of exchanging animal sacrifice for man, and in Ezekiel 5 two thirds are put to death, and one third is sent out into the nations.

    Yeshua stated this same thing in Matthew 26:31, that when they strike the shepherd, two thirds will be removed, like we find in Zechariah 13:7-8.

    So the Messiah based on the text had to come before the 2nd temple destruction, and diaspora, had to fulfill all these preemptive requirements, as this Snare shall remove all the ungodly (Isaiah 24, Isaiah 34).

    The Curse that Moses stated in Deuteronomy 28 and Leviticus 26, which is said to be placed after Elijah came before the Day of the Lord (Malachi 4:5-6); happened as John the Baptist was the reincarnation of Elijah, and Yeshua was the spirit of the Lord, in the flesh of David our king, that was put to death by our people, thus we can understand why the Lord turned away, and cursed us.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
    #1 wizanda, Feb 16, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2018
  2. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Were you going to offer some proofs for us to debate?
     
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  3. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    LoL, after 15 years debating this, that is some of the points; there is loads more can add to it, yet need to know where people are confused before can guide them to even more details.

    Unfortunately it is a very complex matter, where only an advanced form of reasoning will even be able to maintain all the variables, whilst they assess the whole case presented.

    This sum here adds it up, and if someone understood all the intertextuality within this part of the case alone, they'd know for sure...

    Isaiah 5 + Isaiah 28:9-19 (Ezekiel 1-7) = Isaiah 53 + Zechariah 11 = Jeremiah 25 + Daniel 9 = The Parable of Wicked Husbandmen

    The idea of this whole case presented in the Bible, that I'm trying to partially simplify, by explaining the details; is to make it only the wise understand it, and thus prove they're worthy of the Messianic age.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  4. Debater Slayer

    Debater Slayer Born-again Glompist
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    Oh, you're one of the ten billion folks who are among the wise who are the only ones to understand the Truth (TM).

    On to the next messiah, please.
     
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  5. Rival

    Rival Shtreimel Wearer
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    If you need to prove moshiach has come, moshiach hasn't come.

    That's how you know.
     
  6. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    From studying the conclusions many have made, there are therefore not many wise people in this world; not aware of anyone who has understood this properly.

    Like no one has noticed that the Gospel of John is made up, and doesn't fit with the Synoptic Gospels, there are well over 30 blatant contradictions.

    If the Bible was like an IQ test, and we have a series of patterns being the Synoptic Gospels; then the next in the sequence, shouldn't be the Gospel of John, as it doesn't fit.

    Saying "Yeshua is the Messiah" is easy, and actually understanding how the Curse, and Snare catch out most is complex.

    People are so easily fooled, and the Bible tells us it is a riddle that shall fool everyone (Isaiah 29:10-14), and then you're citing them as knowing what is going on.

    Christians are caught in the Ravenous Snare; Muslims don't even know most of it, and join on to broken covenants; whilst the Quran uses the gospel of John as a proof text.

    After years of looking for people who understand this, found a few who've noticed Paul is contradictory, and occasionally Simon the stone (petros) gets included.. Yet not properly understood in prophetic contexts.

    *Disclaimer: I have great faith "I do not know", and thus spent years researching and debating it to be sure.*

    In my opinion.
    :innocent:
     
  7. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    The Messianic Age has one king globally, as the being is the head of the arch angels from most eschatologies... Where reality is changed before it happens.
    Who said the Messiah had come? John, Paul, Simon the stone (petros).

    Yeshua told his disciples not to tell anyone for it wasn't the time; when asked by the Pharisees "are you The Christ?" "you 'shall' see the son of man at the right hand side of God."

    Yeshua's parables also speak of a future wedding banquet, a future harvest; it is only the Christians following the fake texts that get confused.

    Just read many of the Zoroastrianism texts as well, there are 3 occurrences of the Saoshyant/Messiah there, and the last is the same as we have in the Bible, the cleansing of mankind before the Age of Godliness.

    The Messiah came to set a Snare to remove all the mockers, and scoffers, the ravenous, the untrustworthy, those that love death more than life, and those that don't check additional contexts.

    Thus what Yeshua came to prove is achieved, and most fall short; so in the fulfillment of Isaiah 8:18's children coming to fruition, then this world is about to be washed with holy fire, as he also prophesied are the results....

    Then after everyone will know who the Messiah is anyway, and there is no point explaining all this to the people who currently don't get it. :purpleheart:

    In my opinion.
    :innocent:
     
  8. YmirGF

    YmirGF Bodhisattva

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    So, how much pot does one have to smoke before this all makes sense?
     
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  9. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Not sure it would help being too high on initial reading of all these texts, because one needs to remember whole chapters, and contexts for it to make sense...

    Cannabis is possibly Haoma, Soma, and Kaneh Bosem, which helped lead to the prophetic texts in the first place; so it might help some understand the metaphoric poetic style of writing the prophets used.

    To understand my summary tho, is something that just takes reading all of the scriptures listed... Or even a summary of a summary:

    The scriptures metaphorically say that YHVH shall become Yeshua...

    Yeshua is to be the Messiah, as he came before the 2nd temple destruction, and the diaspora; which happened as they paid 30 pieces of silver for him, which caused them to be divorced.

    Yeshua did not come as a sin offering, yet as a test; to make a Snare to catch out the ravenous beings, and to put the Curse Moses stated on Israel.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  10. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    Where do you think the identification 'synoptic' came from? It determined that John was of a different theology/Christology, from above, that of the synoptic gospels from below. It is this theology and historical situation that separates John from the others.

    Also found in the Gospel of Thomas, this parable is unique among Jesus' parables as it is pure allegory. There is noticed among the different versions a radical modification when compared. The original audience would have understood that Jesus saw himself as being the son, the last messenger, but it could not be taken for granted that the son had messianic significance, since no evidence is forthcoming for the application of the title "Son of God' to the Messiah in pre-Christian Palestinian Judaism. 'No Jew hearing in the parable the story of the mission and slaying of the "son", could have dreamed of applying it to the sending of the Messiah'. In the rabbinical parable of the Wicked Tenants the son is interpreted to be the patriarch Jacob (as representing the people of Israel). The Christological point of the parable would have been hidden from the audience.
     
  11. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    This I agree with. He came in solidarity with, not as a scapegoat to offer redemption to a vengeful God. Jesus was first thought not an afterthought.
     
  12. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    As someone working on a degree in Pure Mathematics, I can tell you from experience that this is a far-cry from a "proof" of anything.
     
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  13. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Get that Synoptic means, 'See together as one'; yet the idea John is reliable compared to the others is ridiculous.
    Matthew 21:45-46 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about them. 46 They looked for a way to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowd because the people held that he was a prophet.

    Also that is missing Yeshua challenged the Sanhedrin for murdering the prophets as atoning sacrifices in Matthew 23:27-38, Mark 7:1-13.

    Then when we look at why Yeshua quoted, "I ask for mercy and not sacrifice" twice at them (Matthew 9:13, Matthew 12:7), is because Hosea 6:6 leads on to Hosea 6:9 where it can be read the priest are murdering prophets.

    Pharisaic Jews would have understood that their oral tradition, "the death of the righteous can atone for the sins of that generation" is what Yeshua was bringing into condemnation by the parable..

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  14. beenherebeforeagain

    beenherebeforeagain Rogue Animist
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    NO ONE has noticed? I guess you haven't read any of the scholars of Biblical Criticism from the past two centuries, then...

    Lots have noticed that John is certainly different, but of course, compared to the roughly 3.5 billion Christians in the world today, maybe only a few hundred million have notice that the first three gospels in the NT are repetitive, essentially the same, with a small amount of differing text between them, and that John is very different.

    And, it's a good possibility that all four were 'made up,' because there are omissions and contradictions between them all. There are of course other scholars who argue that parts are at least possibly reasonably accurate about some aspects of Jesus and his teachings...

    Just an observation...
     
  15. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Yes, and I'd agree, tho the equation i gave has partial recognition; it isn't until all the other more stage related settings are put in as well, that the picture becomes clearer...

    Unfortunately to list all those means showing all the interlinking keywords across the text, like a tapestry defining what people are relaying.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  16. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Tho can question all perspectives; the ideas they're totally made up, doesn't make sense, as there is an intellectual character in the middle of them...

    Agree they contradict, and the authors in the Synoptic Gospels are shoddy, adding their own personal slant on prophecy.
    Yeah the idea we don't know who the writers are is evidence of that...

    In John it has many private conversations between the Pharisees, and High Council... Thus implying it is coming from the perspective of someone within the Sanhedrin, to know the data contained.

    Thus within that perspective, that it comes from hearsay evidence that the Sanhedrin collected about him; it makes sense why John is subtly making Yeshua look arrogant, whilst boldly overwriting the Tanakh.

    So can understand how some people find John to have a Gnostic slant, and all sorts of justification to try to make it fit... When it is possible it doesn't on purpose.
    I haven't to be honest; so if you know where someone dissects the Gospel of John, to show where every line has been put there purposefully to add inconsistencies, that would save us so much time.

    In my opinion.
    :innocent:
     
  17. beenherebeforeagain

    beenherebeforeagain Rogue Animist
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    I don't recall anyone analyzing John in quite that way...that kind of presupposes what one will find in doing an analysis...Google is your friend on this (suddenly I don't seem to have access to Google Scholar, but that or a search through any other search engine or a public library database should help out)...but there are lots of different perspectives, ranging at the extremes from assessments as literal history, to metaphor and symbolism, to fiction.
     
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  18. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    It's because of all the contradictions noticed already.

    Like we find Yeshua came teaching the Gospel (G2097, G2098), and then there is no word Gospel in the Gospel of John. :confused:

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  19. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    Because Mk Mt and Lk can be viewed side by side (syn-optically) does not mean they are without significant differences. For Mark Jesus' baptism is the recognition that he is God's son. Matthew and Luke move this recognition back to His birth. John moves it further back to pre existence.

    Matthew writes with the insight of post resurrection faith. The reference was to the original audience who followed Jesus.
     
  20. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    1409768190124.png
    1409768216020.png

    And then there are no parables in John.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
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