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Featured Proving Yeshua as the Messiah

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by wizanda, Feb 16, 2018.

  1. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Yeah that for me crosses a line; whereas the synoptic Gospels do add their own personal prophetic interpretation; which is understandable, we all do that...

    John 1:1 puts forward ideas that are the authors, about the creation of reality... So we have some anonymous author creating theology; rather than it being from someone who we know is from the Divine.
    Luke 20:19-20 The chief priests and the scribes sought to lay hands on him that very hour, but they feared the people—for they knew he had spoken this parable against them. (20) They watched him, and sent out spies, who pretended to be righteous, that they might trap him in something he said, so as to deliver him up to the power and authority of the governor.

    Mark 12:12-13 They tried to seize him, but they feared the multitude; for they perceived that he spoke the parable against them. They left him, and went away. (13) They sent some of the Pharisees and the Herodians to him, that they might trap him with words.

    Both other Gospels have it as something that happened after the Parable of the Wicked Husbandmen (the Tenant Farmers).

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  2. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    Correct. Neither does John relate much if anything at all concerning the Apostles. We need to consider the historical situation of the Johannine community. Where as the earlier Jewish Christians continued their religious obligations going to the synagogue, they are now expelled and cursed as heretics. No longer under the Jewish protective umbrella they are open to Roman persecution.
     
  3. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    Why? Do you think it will be obvious to everyone? Why would it be obvious to everyone? o_O:confused:
     
  4. Rival

    Rival Noahide
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    Yes, the scriptures say that in the messianic age everyone will know the L-rd and nobody will have to teach his neighbour about the L-rd because all shall know him. There will be no more war and famine. The Israelite Tribes will be reunited under the Messiah King and the Third Temple will be built as overseen by the messiah.

    You can't really not notice that.
     
    #24 Rival, Feb 16, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2018
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  5. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    What we have in the Gospels is only in the form compiled and edited by the Evangelists and not the words of Jesus. Mark presents a very human Jesus, John presents the glorified Christ. Without either we would not have the portrait of Jesus we have. John states the reason for writing,

    These are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son od God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
     
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  6. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    Scriptures do not SAY anything. They just sit on a page until someone reads them and interprets them.

    What scriptures do you have that indicate that these things will happen?
    • The Israelite Tribes will be reunited under the Messiah King
    • Temple will be built as overseen by the messiah.
    In the messianic age everyone will know, but at what time during the messianic age will everyone know? Are there any scriptures that specify the exact time?

    I am sure you are well aware of the fact that Christians do not interpret the same scriptures you are reading the same way Jews interpret them.

    I am sure you are well aware of the fact that Christians believe that Jesus is the Messiah. You can't really not notice that. ;)

    So what reason is there to believe one of you is right and the other one is wrong?

    How do you know your interpretation is correct? Verses can have many different meanings.
     
  7. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    The text doesn't say it will be built by human hands... There are Rabbinic Jewish debates if the temple comes down from Heaven:

    Exodus 15:17-18 You shall bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of your inheritance, the place, Yahweh, which you have made for yourself to dwell in; the sanctuary, Lord, which your hands have established. (18) Yahweh shall reign forever and ever.”

    Ezekiel 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them. It will be an everlasting covenant with them. I will place them, multiply them, and will set my sanctuary among them forever more.

    The temple is infinite and the place God reigns, thus it is basically Heaven coming down to earth.

    Isaiah 66:1 Yahweh says, “Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. What kind of house will you build to me? Where will I rest?

    The New Jerusalem comes down from Heaven (Revelation 21:10), and yet there is no temple in it.

    Revelation 21:22 I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God, the Almighty, and the Lamb, are its temple.

    As Daniel 11:38 prophesied some of our people worship buildings, and not God who is the creator of the whole of reality.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  8. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Sorry that really is not provable, there is a possibility the Sermon on the Mount, the Parables, and the teachings by Yeshua, were his; as the intellectual capabilities are vastly superior to most human thought.

    In comparison John portrays someone who is arrogant, not bright; so then claiming that it helps us understand someone advanced by painting some dumb picture, isn't being logical.
    The Gospel of John muddies the water at every point, and needs removing to understand the correct perspective...

    We do not get eternal life by believing in the name, that is a contradiction repeated in John 11 times; where Yeshua states the opposite in the Synoptic Gospels.

    Matthew 7:21-23 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. (22) Many will tell me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?’ (23) Then I will tell them, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.’

    We can believe Yeshua is the Messiah by the Tanakh, and the fulfillment of prophecy; that John then overshadows by telling us the opposite to the prophetic outcomes.

    John also changes Yeshua into the son of YHVH, when Yeshua is claiming to be YHVH...

    So when the money tables are over turned, Yeshua in the Synoptic Gospels, says 'my house of prayer', in John it becomes 'my fathers house of prayer'.

    Thus much of the theology becomes purposefully discombobulated in many ways, due to including John as trustworthy evidence.

    In my opinion.
    :innocent:
     
  9. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Did you read the OP? Neither of them are right, they both don't pay proper attention to all context.
    Because the Bible is like computer code in some places, intertextually linking to show that the answers are confirmed by historical events, and things we can all see.
    This is because most people have some personal biases to serve.... Especially Bahais who seem to make everything fit with their own religious expectations of prophetic events.
    The Messianic Age is literally a new reality, where there is no longer death, lions will eat straw, wolfs will lie with the lamb (Isaiah 65:17-25)...

    Unfortunately and sorry to say this, as i've got respect for Baha'ullah's efforts at trying to create world peace; yet he wasn't the things he claimed, as these things have not taken place, and the scriptures are specific in multiple places.
    As just replied to Rival, the temple is the throne of God come down here from Heaven... Not something built with human hands.
    This is repeated in multiple places:

    Isaiah 11:12, Jeremiah 23:3, Jeremiah 23:8, Jeremiah 31:8, Ezekiel 28:25, Ezekiel 11:17, Zechariah 10:6-12, Psalms 147:2, etc...

    Tho read the whole of Ezekiel 34, as that specifically explains the Messiahs arrival, and gathering of all the Tribes.
    This is because they've followed the fake texts of John, Paul and Simon the stone (petros); thus have been told the Messiah already came, when Yeshua himself said it is to be a future event at the coming of the Messianic Age, and not before it.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  10. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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  11. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Well since you've just posted both the links to a mass of evidence, showing why Christianity has been deceived by the fake Gospel of John; then you also have to provide data to substantiate the claim.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  12. Rival

    Rival Noahide
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    Because Jesus did none of these things. There are chapters of Ezichiel dedicated to the Temple construction. In Ezichiel 37: 21-22 we have the prophecy of the tribes being united under a Davidic King (moshiach).

    From the start of the messianic age everyone shall know because that is the point of the messianic age. The messiah ushers in the messianic age wherein all these things shall happen. As the messiah will only live for as long as everyone else then all these things must happen within a human lifetime.
     
    #32 Rival, Feb 17, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2018
  13. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    Both the 'Sermon on the Mount' and teaching in parables are typical of Jewish teaching, they are accepted as authentic with Jesus as it reflects the customary terminology in rabbinical discussion. Jesus offers his interpretation to the correct understanding of the Torah. Both Jesus and rabbinical tradition seek the heart of the Torah, the true, deepest intention of God’s revealed will.
     
  14. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    Within the NT there are three passages that clearly call Jesus God.
    Heb 1:8-9 The author says God has spoken of Jesus His Son the words of Ps 45:6-7.
    John 1:1 ......and the Word was God
    Jn 20:28 On the Sunday evening one week after Easter Jesus appears to Thomas and the other disciples, and Thomas confesses him as "My Lord and my God".
     
  15. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Yeshua wasn't meant to do them things two thousand years ago, and did exactly as the OP stated; proving he is the Messiah to be.
    There are chapters explaining a temples dimensions (Ezekiel 40-47); can you show it being built, as already shown it is to be built by God according to Moses (Exodus 15:17-18).
    There shall be no longer death in the world (Isaiah 25:8, Daniel 12:2, Ezekiel 37:12-14, Isaiah 26:19, Revelation 21:4); therefore this is why we're removing all the ungodly first.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  16. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Sorry don't find this; Rabbinic discussions are naive in comparison...

    Many of Yeshua's statements in the Sermon on the Mount are like the parables, they interlink with the Tanakh to expound upon it, and add additional prophecy; Rabbinic Judaism purposefully makes a mess of it, as they seem to suit themselves first before context.
    Judaism has made a mess of theology globally; God is the Most High (El Elyon), Elohim are equivalent to the Arch Angels...

    Many religions can be perceived that our reality was made by the Arch Angels, with the God Most High being the Source of reality.

    Yahavah Elohim (Lord to Be) became Yehoshua Elohim (Lord that Saves)... Both representations from the one God Most High.

    If we take into account that Jews had forgotten the concepts of El being different to the Elohim, like Isaiah 46:9 said would occur, then we can understand why the Pharisaic thinking found within John, Paul and Simon's understanding, has limited the comprehension.

    This is why in Revelation we have 24 Elders, and a Lamb all with Crowns... And then the One God Almighty (El Shadai)...Same can be seen in multiple places by David (2 Samuel 22:14 & Psalms 18:13 + Psalms 50:14 + Psalms 78:35 + Psalms 92:1).

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  17. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    What do you think 'expound upon it' means?
    The opinion of previous Torah exegetes is given first; thereafter the speaker gives his own interpretation as a contribution to the correct understanding (the ‘establishment’) of the Torah.

    You are trying to place Jesus out of his historical context, rabbinical Judaism. Jesus was a Jew faithful to the oral tradition of the Torah in giving his interpretation.
     
  18. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Expounding is to take what is there within the Tanakh prophetically, and in context; then to amplify that in someway, so adding new details on top of the existing data.
    Yeah this is where we get the word pedantry from, and Yeshua statement, "they strain a gnat, and gain a camel" is the same...

    Like prophets know Heaven, know miracles, they're not just rehashing old data; yet expounding upon it.
    The historical contexts that has amazingly been almost eliminated (Dead Sea Scrolls), is that there was a huge group of Essenes who rejected the Sanhedrin, and found that Rabbinic Judaism (Sadducees, Pharisees, Levites) had defiled the Law... They expected the impending destruction of Israel as a whole in that time period.

    Both Yeshua's and Yochanan's teachings could easily fit into the Essenes more than the Pharisees for numerous reasons.
    Talk about an over simplification; Yeshua was a Divine representative, his knowledge is equal to Buddha, Lao Tzu, Krishna, etc...

    Yeshua created Judaism in the first place, as he was the Spirit of YHVH.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  19. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    2000 years of history vs today's modern viewpoint.
     
  20. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Tradition Vs Objectively verifiable facts.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
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