Proving Hell and philosophy of it.

[InvestigateTruth]

Government in general is disbelief to believe in without God's King. I'm a democratic anarchist in ghayba. But your sit in your home and wait for Qaim have been explained hadiths. It didn't mean what you say and we have other hadiths that explain this and contextualize it.

Republics don't work but Usoolis have to have that. If Iranians were Akhbaris, as I am, we would form a democratic anarchy. But if they believe in Taqlid, then republic is the only democracy they know.

Anyways, we are straying off-topic.

I don't know why you say it is off topic. If some people, claim they represent God's governemt on earth and they claim they are representative of God, where God never gave them such a right, should they abide in hell in your philosophy of hell?
How about those who divide religion of God into sects, such as Akhbari, Usuli, etc? In your philosophy of hell, when people corrupt religion of God, and invent their own versions of religion, will be sent to hell?

 

[Link]

Maybe a good way to present your case for ECT would be to engage with their key arguments one at a time, each with a separate thread. It would certainly be easier for others to follow and engage with, rather than putting up very long and dense posts somewhat altogether.

Pick what you think was their strongest philosophical (not textual or theological) argument against hell, précis it, then critique it.

There is two ways "it's injustice because their sins are of limited nature" and the second is appeal to God's mercy, God's mercy will prevail over his justice eventually (this is saying provided it is just to punish them forever, God's mercy won't allow this (I think Ibn Arabi goes this route more).

I'm not really aware of anymore, perhaps one can come up with, everyone has good deeds and bad deeds, if bad outweigh good, it doesn't take away the good they've done. So punishment must be limited, while reward for good must come after. (Never read this one, but I guess this one can be argued as well).

But if I counter these arguments, I Won't be proving hell exists, I will be merely saying it has not been disproven. My thread is aimed at proving it exists, not that it has not been disproven.

 

[james bond]

A very, very, very, very bad Groundhog day - I could get used to that. We do mostly accustom ourselves to such after all. One of our failings.

Yes, this is what I thought, but you definitely do not want to get used to it.

One of the things I have learned from the Bible is that people around the world make up myths in regards to the truth. For example, we built nuclear weapons in the 40s and 50s and then came the fiction about it going out of control. Another would be Noah's Flood and how people make up their own flood catastrophe myths.

One of the things that got me was about something in your life that repeats itself. In this case, it's not a pleasant experience until you get it right. If only it was this simple. Maybe what happens in hell is you relive something that you regret. We are all supposed to experience the end of the world, so that may be a traumatic moment. I can't fathom such a thing occurring.

 

[Link]

I don't know why you say it is off topic. If some people, claim they represent God's governemt on earth and they claim they are representative of God, where God never gave them such a right, should they abide in hell in your philosophy of hell?
How about those who divide religion of God into sects, such as Akhbari, Usuli, etc? In your philosophy of hell, when people corrupt religion of God, and invent their own versions of religion, will be sent to hell?

Who is claiming they represent God, Khamenei always say they can't say the Islam they practice is the true Islam, all he says for certain is their spirit is Islamic (they wish to submit to God). Every Shiite prays that the Mahdi will bring back Islam new, such that all innovations are removed, and all errors removed, and that he manifest all justice.

I don't claim to know the true Islam and no Shiite claims this, which is even why Usoolis, most of the prohibitions or commands in Fiqh, are by precaution, meaning it has not definitely been proven and they can follow another scholar with regards to those rulings then the ones they follow.

I don't believe in Taqlid, but easy there, buddy. No Shiite claims our understanding of Islam is the correct one. Akhbaris just don't believe in Taqlid and believe every aspect has to have textual confirmation in Quran and hadiths. Every interpretation must be supported by hadiths is a must, but the way to know a hadith is not through ilmel rijaal but through Quran and light of God.

This is just different approaches in coping in ghayba, no one says they represent the true Islam.

 

[Galateasdream]

f I counter these arguments, I Won't be proving hell exists, I will be merely saying it has not been disproven. My thread is aimed at proving it exists, not that it has not been disproven

But surely part of assembling a case for hell would be not only presenting a positive argument in favour, but also rebutting defeators against the notion?

What, expressed in a single short paragraph, do you think is your strongest positive argument or proof for hell (philosophical, not theological or textual)?

 

[Link]

But surely part of assembling a case for hell would be not only presenting a positive argument in favour, but also rebutting defeators against the notion?

What, expressed in a single short paragraph, do you think is your strongest positive argument or proof for hell (philosophical, not theological or textual)?

Love and gratitude towards goodness manifest something eternal beyond this world, both us as lovers to God and God to his lovers, his pleasure in this regard, is that his gratitude will never end. I believe evil and envy and apathy and misguided selfish type love and rebellion against the path of God's love, are opposite to this, and will manifest the opposite from God, his Wrath, which will never end, for the same reason, when his essence is applied to good, his appreciation never end. This is why God is the most distressed being and grieves the most regarding evil, because he hates it the most and knows it's reality with respect to himself. I can't see evil for what it is, and if I had knowledge of the hidden reality of God, it would be impossible to sin for me, and I would have all the treasures of God, but it's impossible to know because he only knows himself. And in that knowledge, only he knows fully evil, but rationally, I see him hating and ultra angry at evil the same way I see him absolutely pleased and forever grateful for good. God of course, does his best, to save us from his wrath, but we turn away from his guidance and incline to the envious evil tree. Such is the state of humans, which was never meant nor destined to be.

 

[Link]

But surely part of assembling a case for hell would be not only presenting a positive argument in favour, but also rebutting defeators against the notion?

My approach does two birds with one stone.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Who is claiming they represent God, Khamenei always say they can't say the Islam they practice is the true Islam, all he says for certain is their spirit is Islamic (they wish to submit to God). Every Shiite prays that the Mahdi will bring back Islam new, such that all innovations are removed, and all errors removed, and that he manifest all justice.

I don't claim to know the true Islam and no Shiite claims this, which is even why Usoolis, most of the prohibitions or commands in Fiqh, are by precaution, meaning it has not definitely been proven and they can follow another scholar with regards to those rulings then the ones they follow.

I don't believe in Taqlid, but easy there, buddy. No Shiite claims our understanding of Islam is the correct one. Akhbaris just don't believe in Taqlid and believe every aspect has to have textual confirmation in Quran and hadiths. Every interpretation must be supported by hadiths is a must, but the way to know a hadith is not through ilmel rijaal but through Quran and light of God.

This is just different approaches in coping in ghayba, no one says they represent the true Islam.

Well, then you seem not to be informed about iranian governemt.

But, I don't want to get into politics.

Let's talk about philosophy of hell.
You say there is God, who has created heaven for good people, and hell for wrongdoers.
The God or Allah you are talking about, created Religion, so, by His religion people end up in heaven. Think of religion of God, as a straight path to heaven.
Then a bunch of people come, and interpret Religion of God according to their own wishful, fallible mind, thus making sects, which are not the original religion. This sects, which are not the original religion are wrong ways, which will guide people to hell, instead of heaven. Now, when people just imitate their forefathers sect, and stay with it, fanatically, they will go to hell. Do you see the logic? And I quoted so many verses and hadithes to prove this is the view of Islam.

 

[Link]

Well, then you seem not to be informed about iranian governemt.

But, I don't want to get into politics.

Let's talk about philosophy of hell.
You say there is God, who has created heaven for good people, and hell for wrongdoers.
The God or Allah you are talking about, created Religion, so, by His religion people end of in heaven. Think of religion of God, as a straight path to heaven.
Then a bunch of people come, and interpret Religion of God according to their own wishful, fallible mind, thus making sects, which are not the original religion. This sects, which are not the original religion are wrong ways, which will guide people to hell, instead of heaven. Now, when people just imitate their forefathers sect, and stay with it, fanatically, they will go to hell. Do you see the logic? And I quoted so many verses and hadithes to prove this is the view of Islam.

Guidance to perfect understanding of religion is only possible through a leader from God. The only reason there is ever a ghayba (a night) that God doesn't send with signs, is because the previous generations rejected the miracles and signs. Hence, God out of his mercy, sometimes put's a period without Messengers. Never without a hidden Guide or manifest Guide, but sometimes without a Manifest Guide.

Children of Israel awaiting Moses' didn't know all the commands of Abraham and his family - his successors that it is, nor do we Shiites claim to know it.

We aren't going to understand the perfect religion without an Imam guiding us to all of it. We are just trying to salvage what we can of it and remove the errors we attribute to it. Imam Mahdi is the one who will bring it back fresh, new, and revive the religion like never before.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Peace and blessings,

I believe the belief in hell is a very rational belief to have and that a holy book that claims that is the result of x or y type people, it must justify why and manifest this beyond doubt.

There are different reasons as to why hell exists and why it's perpetual and never ends.

There are sufficient proofs (each in themselves) and then there the philosophy of all the proofs making a case together, that to me prove it beyond doubt.

Any holy book claiming to be from God but doesn't prove it's tenants, is deficient. As for hell, I believe the Quran has commented on it from many different angles, and different reasons, as to why, it exists.

This thread is to unlock reflections on these reasons as to gain it's insights in this respect as to the philosophy of why hell must exist and for certain exists.

The subject is repeated in Quran and is in fact connected with almost every topic of the Quran. That is it uses whatever discussion to then manifest an aspect or a sufficient proof to hell-fire and it's perpetual never ending reality.

It's assumed every mention of hell is just emotional bullying, but another way, is to look at is contextualizing it with subjects so as to prove it from different aspects.

If in fact there is a place called hell where some creator god sends people to be tortured for all eternity for some perceived sin committed during their short finite lives, then I would only be able to conclude that this creator god is some sort of a despicable sadistic monster. Such a vile and immoral being would be worthy of my disgust and disdain, NOT worthy of my love and worship.

Anyone who would worship and love such an evil being would have to have a very twisted concept of morality.

 

[Galateasdream]

Love and gratitude towards goodness manifest something eternal beyond this world, both us as lovers to God and God to his lovers, his pleasure in this regard, is that his gratitude will never end. I believe evil and envy and apathy and misguided selfish type love and rebellion against the path of God's love, are opposite to this, and will manifest the opposite from God, his Wrath, which will never end, for the same reason, when his essence is applied to good, his appreciation never end. This is why God is the most distressed being and grieves the most regarding evil, because he hates it the most and knows it's reality with respect to himself. I can't see evil for what it is, and if I had knowledge of the hidden reality of God, it would be impossible to sin for me, and I would have all the treasures of God, but it's impossible to know because he only knows himself. And in that knowledge, only he knows fully evil, but rationally, I see him hating and ultra angry at evil the same way I see him absolutely pleased and forever grateful for good. God of course, does his best, to save us from his wrath, but we turn away from his guidance and incline to the envious evil tree. Such is the state of humans, which was never meant nor destined to be.

This is very hard to follow, and I'm afraid I can't grasp it.
It reads less like a work of philosophy and more like a piece of religious mysticism.

You may need to work on your ability to express your POV in more succinct, clear, and direct English if you want people to engage with it as a philosophical proof.

 

[Link]

This is very hard to follow, and I'm afraid I can't grasp it.
It reads less like a work of philosophy and more like a piece of religious mysticism.

You may need to work on your ability to express your POV in more succinct, clear, and direct English if you want people to engage with it as a philosophical proof.

If goodness is to be appreciated and rewarded forever, then so it's true of the negative opposites, to be despised and punished forever for same reason with respect to God's essence and nature of morality.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Guidance to perfect understanding of religion is only possible through a leader from God. The only reason there is ever a ghayba (a night) that God doesn't send with signs, is because the previous generations rejected the miracles and signs. Hence, God out of his mercy, sometimes put's a period without Messengers. Never without a hidden Guide or manifest Guide, but sometimes without a Manifest Guide.

I don't think previous generations rejected miracles. People asked Muhammad to bring back their father's so that they can believe Muhammad is a true prophet, but He did not do it. But, you honestly think, if today God sends angels down from heaven, and people see such miracles, they do not believe? If a Messenger comes, and brings back their grandfather's, you think they would not believe? If they see with their own eyes the moon is split they would not believe now?

 

[Link]

I don't think previous generations rejected miracles. People asked Muhammad to bring back their father's so that they can believe Muhammad is a true prophet, but He did not do it. But, you honestly think, if today God sends angels down from heaven, and people see such miracles, they do not believe? If a Messenger comes, and brings back their grandfather's, you think they would not believe? If they see with their own eyes the moon is split they would not believe now?

No one knows the choice, but probably, will reject him as a sorcerer or possessed by demons/aliens.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

.

We aren't going to understand the perfect religion without an Imam guiding us to all of it. We are just trying to salvage what we can of it and remove the errors we attribute to it. Imam Mahdi is the one who will bring it back fresh, new, and revive the religion like never before.

Well, in fact, according to traditions of Mahdi, and the verses of Quran regarding Mahdi, when He comes, the situations becomes just as when Muhammad came: some will be guided and some will be misguided. And it is said, the Shias reject Him, and instead people who even did not believe in God before, will believe Him.

 

[Link]

Well, in fact, according to traditions of Mahdi, and the verses of Quran regarding Mahdi, when He comes, the situations becomes just as when Muhammad came: some will be guided and some will be misguided. And it is said, the Shias reject Him, and instead people who even did not believe in God before, will believe Him.

These are mere possibilities, the Quran allows all of them as possible, it has different scenarios and prophecies that can happen. The best scenarios are shown and the worst, the worst is Suratal Yaseen, one believer only, and there is between that and best scenario many. For all we know, it can happen very few believe, and most of the world destroyed. We don't know. God's advice in Quran is not to wait for this apathetically, but do our best to prepare people for God and his choice.

For all we know though, we may, reject the Mahdi and be replaced by another people. It can happen. But we do our best, to help the world prepare and hope we will accept him and believe in him.

For all we know, the whole world without exception of one person, accepts him. We don't know the future.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

@Link

It is narrated from Ibne Uqdah from Ahmad bin Ziyad from Ali bin Sabah from [Abi] Ali bin Muhammad Hadhrami from Ja’far bin Muhammad from Ibrahim bin Abdul Hamid that he said: Someone heard Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) say:

“When the Qaim (a.s.) appears, those who have thought themselves as his followers will apostatize and those, who are somehow like the worshippers of the sun and the moon, will believe in him.”


According to this hadith those who consider themselves as followers of Qaim will disbelieve. Obviously these are Shias, who consider themselves follower of the Qaim.

 

[Link]

@Link

It is narrated from Ibne Uqdah from Ahmad bin Ziyad from Ali bin Sabah from [Abi] Ali bin Muhammad Hadhrami from Ja’far bin Muhammad from Ibrahim bin Abdul Hamid that he said: Someone heard Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) say:

“When the Qaim (a.s.) appears, those who have thought themselves as his followers will apostatize and those, who are somehow like the worshippers of the sun and the moon, will believe in him.”


According to this hadith those who consider themselves as followers of Qaim will disbelieve. Obviously these are Shias, who consider themselves follower of the Qaim.

It as I said though, different Surahs give different scenarios. Imams (as) explain the prophecies concerning the Mahdi in each Surah. This Surah is probably with the theme if we turn on our backs, we will be replaced by another people. Other Surahs however, like the waiting of children of Israel for Moses, and many scenarios of this type exist, and many verses emphasize on that it's obligatory for God to save the believers from their oppressors, show, we Shiites will be similar to children of Israel waiting salvation. Other Surahs even give better Scenarios, in which, we aren't a trial to the disbelievers, because, of commanding to good and forbidding evil, and because of strength we gain. This is the best scenario, as it can save the world from being destroyed.

There also hadiths that talk about knowledge spreading from Qum to the whole world about Islam, such that everyone would understand properly before the Qaim rises.

None of the hadiths are written in stone prophecies, but match one of the conditional scenarios in Quran, in which was even a scenario for Mohammad but more locally his, while the Mahdi, it applies more universally.

 

[Link]

Anyways, we are straying off-topic!

 

[Galateasdream]

If goodness is to be appreciated and rewarded forever, then so it's true of the negative opposites, to be despised and punished forever for same reason with respect to God's essence and nature of morality.

A) Why?

B) Who is making the claim that limited goodness deserves unlimited reward?

C) This assumes that God desires a retributive form of justice rather than a rehabilitative one, or that He has no concept of mercy. That seems quite an assumption given omnibenevolence.