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Featured Proving Hell and philosophy of it.

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Link, Jan 25, 2020.

  1. Link

    Link Well-Known Member

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    Peace and blessings,

    I believe the belief in hell is a very rational belief to have and that a holy book that claims that is the result of x or y type people, it must justify why and manifest this beyond doubt.

    There are different reasons as to why hell exists and why it's perpetual and never ends.

    There are sufficient proofs (each in themselves) and then there the philosophy of all the proofs making a case together, that to me prove it beyond doubt.

    Any holy book claiming to be from God but doesn't prove it's tenants, is deficient. As for hell, I believe the Quran has commented on it from many different angles, and different reasons, as to why, it exists.

    This thread is to unlock reflections on these reasons as to gain it's insights in this respect as to the philosophy of why hell must exist and for certain exists.

    The subject is repeated in Quran and is in fact connected with almost every topic of the Quran. That is it uses whatever discussion to then manifest an aspect or a sufficient proof to hell-fire and it's perpetual never ending reality.

    It's assumed every mention of hell is just emotional bullying, but another way, is to look at is contextualizing it with subjects so as to prove it from different aspects.
     
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  2. Galateasdream

    Galateasdream Active Member

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    I don't believe in a hell of literal eternal torment.
    I used to, but I haven't for quite some time now.

    What is your view on hell?
    And are you emotionally ok with such a thing?
     
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  3. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    "Hell" is a concept label that represents a lot of different ideas to a lot of different people (not unlike "God"). I think you're going to have to be much more specific in your characterization of "hell" if you want to have any sort of meaningful discussion on the subject with others. I, personally, would not address the traditional "bad place down below" reference as anything more than a metaphor for a kind of spiritual collapse that can happen to us while still living in this realm.
     
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  4. Left Coast

    Left Coast Black Lives Matter
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    You keep telling us you're going to tell us, but then never tell us.

    Give us your "proof."
     
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  5. Link

    Link Well-Known Member

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    This thread, I will be doing this. Building a case for hell, but, I just wanted to introduce before the proofs and see people's thoughts first.
     
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  6. kjw47

    kjw47 Well-Known Member

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    When one applys fact to this teaching, they clearly find it was symbolism in the NT.
    All that know the true living God knows 100% --His justice scales= An eye for an eye.= perfect balance. Uncorruptable.

    Lets apply this teaching and see if its literal

    70-100 years of unrepented sin---- trillions x trillions x trillions of never ending years of punishment.

    0 balance in that teaching being literal. Fire = destruction--Lake of fire.= eternal destruction.
    Jesus teaches--those walking the broad and spacious path to destruction.

    God is love, not the sadist taught by those who do not know him.
     
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  7. Link

    Link Well-Known Member

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    The main reason I left Islam for five years of my adult life was because I was emotionally not ok with it. There were "errors" I saw in Quran but what motivated me to see these as errors and not solve them or see the easy solution for them, was the turmoil hell caused me to have.

    No one wants anyone to go to hell. It's however, something that God will do, despite his grief for all his servants entering therein "O grief over my servants...." (part of a verse in Surah Yaseen)

    In fact I will share a poem I once made when I was non-Muslim about this:

    Say Islam was true
    And I was a Jew
    Would God torture me
    For what I did not see?

    In the name of justice
    Pain as the flames burn
    Days turn into weeks
    Weeks into years
    All for disbelief
    I will have no relief

    Billions of years pass by
    Justice is still not served
    All good is rejected
    My good actions are ineffective
    And I would not burn if my mind was reflective?

    This is the creed that I use to follow
    But now I realize such a creed is shallow
    Whomever desires other than the true religion
    Let him burn in the fire?!
    As oppose to loving him, having compassion for him
    Appreciating his good,
    Honouring his struggles,
    Being his friend,
    No! No! That is not the way!

    For God is enemy of those whom disbelieve!
    Friend and Protector of those whom believe!
    All are reduced to the lowest of the low!
    Except - of course - for those all special and great believers!
    Everyone but them, to hell they go!

    All astray souls - be prepared for increasing burning!
    For none but the guided will have peace!
    Is that the remembrance that is suppose to bring ease?
    Peace you say?
    Bowing Five times a day!
    To a Lord whom will watch humans burn in agony?
    Having the believers laugh at them for the sake of an irony?

    A Lord whom tortures everyone but the righteous guided?
    A Lord whom loves not the disbelievers!
    Hates them with a strong hatred!
    And all this teachings is suppose to be sacred?

    Most Merciful, Most Compassionate is he called by all!
    But threatens all to hell, except those whom respond to the call?
    If you have to be righteous to enter heaven.
    What mercy was ever spread in creation?
    Or is God accepting regret from a righteous person
    Truly a show of ultra mercy, forgiveness, and compassion?
    As if it's not justice to accept his regret and reformation!

    At the end, O Lord of Islam!
    If you are to burn me for this heresy
    Then you truly were not a Lord of Mercy.
    Not Worthy of Worship, not worth anyone's time.
     
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  8. sun rise

    sun rise "Let there be peace and love among all"
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    That statement to me proves that all holy books are deficient because they cannot prove their tenants. For starters all of them have passages that contradict other passages so people try to rationalize and explain away those passages.
     
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  9. Galateasdream

    Galateasdream Active Member

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    @Link
    I think your non-Muslim self was on to something.
    Nice poem.

    What led you to re-change your mind on hell?
     
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  10. Link

    Link Well-Known Member

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    A lot of reflecting. I will be sharing some here.
     
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  11. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Perhaps the impetus of invoking the concept of hell appeals to our sense of desired justice. People might want to motivate the idea that virtue rewards and vice punishes.

    From a logical standpoint virtue does reward, and vice does punish provided a person can acquire the knowledge and skills to affect anything at all.

    We become as affects us whether it be + toward virtue or - toward vice.

    Virtue and vice is a deep subject. Can we control our destinies and fates through reasoning and understanding the importances of virtues and vices, or, does it take the hand of God to affect change within humans.

    The holy books would say it's out of our hands unless God is chosen. God enables, and mankind is helpless otherwise. Doomed to hell.

    We would have to test and prove to ourselves that mankind's plight is one of helplessness, or hopefulness. Do we control our own destiny, or fate, or is it in a higher power's hands, or worse being that we are predetermined to whatever we become and have no say in who we are as people.

    The problem of hell is that people want to take the cause of righteousness into their own hands and hastily and violently want to send people there.

    Is hell a device of humans that wants to psychologically promote their own causes ? vs. getting at the actuality of what is worthy and what is detestable and unworthy.

    If hell is a real effect, or a real place then who has the authoritative power to judge who goes?, Humans!

    Or does virtue and vice have its own natural causes and effects.

    I think it dangerous that a person feels that they have the authority and power of God to execute their brand of justice on the rest of humanity.

    The best that can be done is that a general rule of rights and laws is established for all of mankind. And that we do not deny rights and laws of freedom to those who dissent from our so called truthes. A general truth that promotes freedoms must be established that is accurate and agreed upon by reasonable people of a majority.

    We have societies that are effective so long as they are vigilantly defended and passed down to the following generations.

    How do you convince someone that their truth is greater than any other truth?. That their truth is the one that promotes actual peace and justice, actual liberty and freedom that is worthwhile.

    Being American I don't need the middle eastern practices and ways of living.

    He/she whom is peaceful will prove themselves to be for actual peace. So we all have to judge ourselves as to what is actual and true in our own lives. That is a whole lot better than running after other humans to conform them to a standard that has produced only war, and hatred.

    Only peace can create peace. Everything else is doomed to suffer.

    The threat of hell isn't really something that can be sensed, or proven to a non believer. Especially a non believer who has no such religious influences in their lives.

    There are a lot of hell believers who use the notion of hell as a weapon against those whom are vastly different from themselves. They feel like they are doing good to warn people of it. Hell believers do not ever take an objective look at actuality outside of their own perceived reality.

    If I am serious about seeking actuality and true potentiality for genuine good then I am not going to close myself off to convictions based in fear with a long history of violence. My prime motivation would be not to be wrongful. And neither heaven nor hell would deter me from my quest.
     
  12. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    @Link , so, what do you think of these verses and traditions:


    "And do not be like the ones who became divided and differed after the clear proofs had come to them. And those will have a great punishment." 3:105


    The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said “My ummah will split into seventy-three sects, all of whom will be in Hell except one group.” They said: Who are they, O Messenger of Allaah? He said: “(Those who follow) that which I and my companions follow.”


    Here is another similar Hadith from a different chain:

    Prophet said: "The Jews are divided into 71 sects, and the Christians are divided into 72 sects and my people will be divided into 73 sects."

    And another similar Hadith from a different chain:

    Abu Sa’id al-Khudri reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Verily, you will follow the path of those before you, step by step and inch by inch; if they entered the hole of a lizard, you would follow.” We said, “O Messenger of Allah, do you mean the Jews and Christians?” The Prophet said, “Who else?”

    Hadith on Bid'ah: Muslims make same mistakes as previous nations | Daily Hadith Online الحديث اليومي

    And yet another similar Hadith from a different chain:

    it is narrated from Abu Khalid Qummat from Humran bin Ayyan that:

    “Once I asked Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s.) if there is something in
    Bani Israel, which will not happen in this Ummah?

    He replied: No.


    And here is a verse of Quran, perhaps explaining why:


    "Indeed, those who have divided their religion and become sects - you, [O Muhammad], are not [associated] with them in anything. Their affair is only
    to Allah ; then He will inform them about what they used to do" 6:159


    Do you think Islam as a worldwide People followed this advise of the Quran?
    "And hold firmly to the rope of Allah all together and do not become divided. And remember the favor of Allah upon you - when you were enemies and He brought your hearts together and you became, by His favor, brothers. And you were on the edge of a pit of the Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus does Allah make clear to you His verses that you may be guided." 3:103


     
    #12 InvestigateTruth, Jan 25, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2020
  13. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

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    This life can be hell enough for people.

    And there's a God who wants to make things even worse?

    What's the point even?
     
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  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    The whole idea of a hell of eternal fiery torment does not originate with the Jews. The ancient Jews had no concept of life after death, so for them, a person died and went to "hell" (sheol, hades) and slept peacefully awaiting a resurrection, which was a return to life on earth, not to heaven or hell. That scenario was never put before God's people.

    Deuteronomy 30:19-20 (Tanakh)...

    "This day, I call upon the heaven and the earth as witnesses [that I have warned] you: I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. You shall choose life, so that you and your offspring will live;

    20 To love the Lord your God, to listen to His voice, and to cleave to Him. For that is your life and the length of your days, to dwell on the land which the Lord swore to your forefathers to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob to give to them."


    The dead are not conscious, so there can be no suffering.
    "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for their remembrance is forgotten. . . .Whatever your hand attains to do [as long as you are] with your strength, do; for there is neither deed nor reckoning, neither knowledge nor wisdom in the grave [sheol], where you are going." (Ecclesiastes 9:5; 10 Tanakh)
    The grave [sheol, hades] is neither a place of conscious existence, nor is it hot.

    God has no need to keep any person alive in order to punish them.....a resurrection awaits those who are not wicked, though unrighteous. Jesus has promised to call them from their graves. (John 5:28-29) But the wicked will just never wake up.....eternal death is their punishment. Isn't that enough?
     
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  15. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    If I was a naturalist I would get eternal death as it is.

    Eternal death sounds like a sufficient punishment though for the wicked.

    The idea of keeping wicked people around forever and ever sounds quite wasteful. If the wicked won't able change then for sure cut them off from existence.
     
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  16. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Don't sell yourself short....God does not desire that any should perish...that is why he gives us so much time to find him and to bring our lives into harmony with his will.

    Its only logical that God would not be fiendish like his adversary....Eternal torture sounds satanic....not Godly.
    When Israel fell to sacrificing their children in the fire to Molech, he said....
    "They have built the high places of Toʹpheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart.’" (Jeremiah 7:31)

    If such a thing never came into God's mind and heart, where did this notion of a burning hell originate? Certainly not from the Bible.....it is a teaching that permeates all false worship.....pagan to its bootstraps.
     
  17. MonkeyFire

    MonkeyFire Well-Known Member

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    I believe that hell is responsible for keeping evil locked away and was the one to betray its great authority in rebellion against Heaven. I have deep (non-romantic) love for the fallen angel and hold that light is virtue as to the devil who is hatred, both seperate entities as in enemity between Adam of the fallen and satan his tempter that ancient serpent.
     
  18. Bird123

    Bird123 Well-Known Member

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    If your holy book teaches that Hell exists and people are going there, that proves your holy book does not come from God. It comes from mankind.

    The answer comes with a simple question.

    What is more important? Punishment or your child?
     
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  19. Link

    Link Well-Known Member

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    To get started, I would like to start with some metaphysics.

    Faith and goodness is linked because when one is drawn towards God - one is guiding their love and is ascending and drawn to the guided direction, and this is what is meant by goodness. We will be looking at a case by case type evil of evil ones.

    One type of evil, is to envy God's chosen ones, to the extent to deny their station, no matter what miracles they are shown, and furthermore, to oppress their followers, as was the case of Pharaoh towards the believers of the Messengers, the children of Israel.

    This envy - where does it come from?

    It comes from the lowest root of hell, a tree which the branches are as if heads of the devils. Of course, they are more evil then devils themselves, and this is the warning of Quran, that our sins are like their Masters, like Iblis' force. It's essential to understand the nature of the cursed tree, and that we are either going to be from the blessed tree - the pure word from God, and linked to one of the branches of the tree of light, or we will be it's enemy, linked to the envious cursed tree.

    If not from a leader like Abraham, a leader from God, we will be born from Satan.

    If not gravitating towards God we will be heading towards darkness and away from him.

    If not holding to God's proofs and insights, we will rely on conjecture and doubts.

    Aside from this, the leader of our time, the guide is with us all, in ways we don't perceive. If we hate him so much, that we don't want to see him and listen to the suggestion of evil companion from Iblis instead, then what were we doing? And why?

    The why we did it, this essential to understand. When you realize WHY you denied the HIDDEN, WHY you rejected the insights and proof, why you made no effort against Satan, why you mixed falsehood with truth, why you didn't care whether or not you saw with truth or were gravitating towards God.

    You will see, it's utter hatred of God's light. Ingratitude towards his favors is not just about being ungrateful, it's denying that God's guidance to himself and rejecting God's relationship to us.

    The why I will be discussing in detail from perspective of Quran. It's this hidden nature, where anyone to realize, would wake up, and reject it. But the nature is such that those who hate, deceive themselves that they are good, and that they spread peace in the land, when they are mischief makers. They don't perceive their insolence nor are aware of the consequences of rejecting God's guidance.

    The hidden nature of truly why, the truest form of why, we can't ever fully see. Only God does.

    But to prove it deserves perpetual wrath and punishment, is to say, it's the direct opposite, the negative, of goodness, which is inclining and gravitating towards the LIFE - God himself, through the tree of life, which is the chosen ones.
     
  20. Link

    Link Well-Known Member

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    The point is vengeance.
     
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