Proving Hell and philosophy of it.

[Link]

If your holy book teaches that Hell exists and people are going there, that proves your holy book does not come from God. It comes from mankind.

The answer comes with a simple question.

What is more important? Punishment or your child?

Children don't go to hell, don't worry.

 

[osgart]

Don't sell yourself short....God does not desire that any should perish...that is why he gives us so much time to find him and to bring our lives into harmony with his will.



Its only logical that God would not be fiendish like his adversary....Eternal torture sounds satanic....not Godly.
When Israel fell to sacrificing their children in the fire to Molech, he said....
"They have built the high places of Toʹpheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart.’" (Jeremiah 7:31)

If such a thing never came into God's mind and heart, where did this notion of a burning hell originate? Certainly not from the Bible.....it is a teaching that permeates all false worship.....pagan to its bootstraps.

Advanced Bible Search

Hell is mentioned 54 times in the Bible.

There is even talk of the second death.

And what of the lake of fire, and everlasting torment of Satan. Day and Night, forever and ever. Revelation 20:10. Kjb

 

[Left Coast]

To get started, I would like to start with some metaphysics.

Faith and goodness is linked because when one is drawn towards God - one is guiding their love and is ascending and drawn to the guided direction, and this is what is meant by goodness.

That is certainly not a standard definition in English, I'm not even sure what it means.

One type of evil, is to envy God's chosen ones, to the extent to deny their station, no matter what miracles they are shown,

What miracles?

It comes from the lowest root of hell, a tree which the branches are as if heads of the devils. Of course, they are more evil then devils themselves, and this is the warning of Quran, that our sins are like their Masters, like Iblis' force. It's essential to understand the nature of the cursed tree, and that we are either going to be from the blessed tree - the pure word from God, and linked to one of the branches of the tree of light, or we will be it's enemy, linked to the envious cursed tree.

This is just a claim. How do you know it's true?.

If not holding to God's proofs and insights, we will rely on conjecture and doubts.

What's wrong with doubt? Doubt is healthy.

Aside from this, the leader of our time, the guide is with us all, in ways we don't perceive. If we hate him so much, that we don't want to see him and listen to the suggestion of evil companion from Iblis instead, then what were we doing? And why?

By guide, do you mean God?

Who is Iblis, and how do you know he/she/it exists?

The why we did it, this essential to understand. When you realize WHY you denied the HIDDEN, WHY you rejected the insights and proof, why you made no effort against Satan, why you mixed falsehood with truth, why you didn't care whether or not you saw with truth or were gravitating towards God.

False dichotomy. Not believing in God doesnt meant I don't care about truth. Caring about truth is why I don't believe in God.

But to prove it deserves perpetual wrath and punishment, is to say, it's the direct opposite, the negative, of goodness, which is inclining and gravitating towards the LIFE - God himself, through the tree of life, which is the chosen ones.

You're not proving, you're just declaring.

 

[dfnj]

I live in New Jersey.

Beelzebub's lair is located 200 feet below the IKEA building in Elizabeth, NJ. Anyone who has ever shopped at IKEA in Elizabeth NJ on Saturday knows what I am saying is true.

 

[Chris Lovel]

That statement to me proves that all holy books are deficient because they cannot prove their tenants. For starters all of them have passages that contradict other passages so people try to rationalize and explain away those passages.

You are so right, if you care to look, which most people don't, there are over 400 conflicting passages in the Bible. What I can never understand is why people believe what was written by ignorant people thousands of years ago. They knew little about the natural world or the world in general yet people hang on their every word. We know more about the nature of the divine now than they ever did. They believed in Magic which is why they believed the stories about so called miracle, they believed it so they wrote it down, not understanding, now Bible readers believe it based on nothing but stories by superstitious scribes. Talking of which none of the accounts in the Bible were recorded at the time they happened. Which means the information is second hand or here-say, not very reliable. Anyway, if they are happy in their misguided beliefs why not if it gives them comfort.

 

[osgart]

Anyone can reason for themselves what is virtue and what is vice. They can see the natural results of these causes and effects for themselves. If they so wish to do that work.

The existence of virtues and vices is not at all any indication of anything further beyond that. Whether it be God, Heaven, Hell.

Existence is a vast, void of utter darkness that is not at all hospitable to life. There is nothing supreme or ideal about the conditions of nature. We have to eat other creatures to survive.

Where exists Divine laws in nature? Not to mention that we all start life with no knowledge whatsoever.

Religion asserts that we are all in need of Mercy. And many religious followers want to execute judgment instead.

These books are endless declarations and claims. They jump to the conclusion that mankind has no intrinsic ability to be genuine and worthy.

These books set no example of how to live life.

These books are of ancient, human minds.

These books are quick to draw enemies with those who do not subscribe.

Peace with a sword! These books do not allow for people to see things for themselves.

I would rather see things for myself then to piece together everything with only religious goggles.

Where is the connection from book to reality? That requires proof, and evidence.

If a person wishes to do the work they can see right from wrong themselves without any religious support.

There is no fruit without putting the work in to attain to something. Religion suggests a ready made solution that totally denies one their own spiritual discernment.

Broad, general conclusions about everything under the sun. No investigation needed, just so called answers so you don't have to go and find out for yourself what the reality is.

That to me is wasteful bloodshed.

 

[danieldemol]

I’m with those who say there is no infinite punishment for finite crimes.

ETA and reject hell on this basis.

 

[Mock Turtle]

A very, very, very, very bad Groundhog day - I could get used to that. We do mostly accustom ourselves to such after all. One of our failings.

 

[Deeje]

Advanced Bible Search

Hell is mentioned 54 times in the Bible.

Do you know how many words are translated "hell" in many Bibles? None of them mean a place of eternal torture in a fire.

“Hellfire” has been a basic teaching in Christendom for many centuries. It is understandable why The Encyclopedia Americana (1956, Vol. XIV, p. 81) said: “Much confusion and misunderstanding has been caused through the early translators of the Bible persistently rendering the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades and Gehenna by the word hell."

"Sheol" in Hebrew is the same as "hades" in Greek....neither means a place of fiery torment.

"Webster’s Third New International Dictionary, unabridged, under “Hell” says: “fr[om] . . . helan to conceal.” The word “hell” thus originally conveyed no thought of heat or torment but simply of a ‘covered over or concealed place.’ In the old English dialect the expression “helling potatoes” meant, not to roast them, but simply to place the potatoes in the ground or in a cellar."

So hell is a burial place...the common grave of all mankind. We all go there. (Ecclesiastes 9:5; 10)

There is even talk of the second death.

The lake of fire is the second death. If you think about it for a moment, what is the first death and why is this called the second?

The first death is the one we inherited from Adam (Romans 5:12) But this death is not permanent. Jesus promises to resurrect those who experience this death. (John 5:28-29) But the second death is different. This is a death from which no one returns. It is not a literal place but a symbolic one because death and hades are thrown into this "lake" as are satan and his demons. (Revelation 20:14)

Matthew 25:31-33...
"When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left."

The sheep at his right hand inherit everlasting life, but the goats....
"Then he will say to those on his left: ‘Go away from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels." What everlasting fire is this? It is the lake of fire....eternal death; just as fire destroys whatever it touches, so this symbolic fire destroys whatever thrown into it.

The incorrigibly wicked are the goats who go there....

“As for the cowards and those without faith and those who are disgusting in their filth and murderers and fornicators and those practicing spiritism and idolaters and all the liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur. This means the second death.” (Revelation 21:8)

And what of the lake of fire, and everlasting torment of Satan. Day and Night, forever and ever. Revelation 20:10. Kjb

This 'torment' is not what it appears to be on the surface. There cannot be literal torment because there is no consciousness after death.
"His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish." (Psalm 146:4 NASB)

When Jesus raised his friend Lazarus, he didn't say he'd gone to heaven....he said he was "sleeping". (John 11:11-14) Death is like sleeping. So if it was literal torment the person would have to be conscious.
In order to punish the wicked, God would have to grant them everlasting life....but it is only the righteous who are granted that.
This is how I see things....

 

[Galateasdream]

If we're also using this thread to state our own views on hell:

I'm an eschatological universalist. I believe every being, whether human, animal, devil, AI or ET, will ultimately spend forever in bliss.

There may be judgement of some kind, I'm agnostic on that but largely draw on the Orthodox inspired deas that 'hell' is a state rather than a place, like the guilty conscience before God and the one's they hurt and so don't really see the need for any extra punishment.

I view any idea of ECT or annhilationism as immoral and therefore unworthy of an omnibenevolent God.

Regarding the biblical witness, I don't think there's a consistent picture at all about hell or the afterlife or judgement. It seems differing authors had differing views, so it doesn't suprise me that hellism, annhilationism, and universalism can all be found within. Harmonisation is impossible.

The early church accepted universal reconciliation (some scholars, like Ramelli, argue it was the majority view, others a sizeable minority view) pretty much up to Augustine.

 

[osgart]

I’m with those who say there is no infinite punishment for finite crimes.

ETA and reject hell on this basis.

A finite punishment for a finite crime feels right to me. I don't know if the worst human is intending infinite murder or not. But I imagine after a few billion years of punishment they might fall to reconsider.

If an evildoer is totally none changeable then why keep them around past punishment. Eternal death would be appropriate for that.

That's how I would do it anyway.

Someone would have to prove to me that evil is an eternal choice and irreversible before I even think of any measures past finite ones.

 

[stvdv]

I believe that all get what they want and deserve

The ones believing in Hell get Hell
The ones believing not in Hell get Hell not

I have verses telling me Hell exist not
But I respect others wanting Hell concept
Their choice, I won't stop them, nor debate them

 

[frbnsn]

I don't believe in a hell of literal eternal torment.
I used to, but I haven't for quite some time now.

What is your view on hell?
And are you emotionally ok with such a thing?

According to me, hell is allegorical symbol for punishment of evil;

 

[Maximus]

Peace and blessings,

I believe the belief in hell is a very rational belief to have and that a holy book that claims that is the result of x or y type people, it must justify why and manifest this beyond doubt.

There are different reasons as to why hell exists and why it's perpetual and never ends.

There are sufficient proofs (each in themselves) and then there the philosophy of all the proofs making a case together, that to me prove it beyond doubt.

Any holy book claiming to be from God but doesn't prove it's tenants, is deficient. As for hell, I believe the Quran has commented on it from many different angles, and different reasons, as to why, it exists.

This thread is to unlock reflections on these reasons as to gain it's insights in this respect as to the philosophy of why hell must exist and for certain exists.

The subject is repeated in Quran and is in fact connected with almost every topic of the Quran. That is it uses whatever discussion to then manifest an aspect or a sufficient proof to hell-fire and it's perpetual never ending reality.

It's assumed every mention of hell is just emotional bullying, but another way, is to look at is contextualizing it with subjects so as to prove it from different aspects.

The notion of perpetual torment in Hell is a repulsive notion inconsistent with a loving God. It is a distortion of scripture. In my opinion.

The book 'That all should be saved' by David Bentley Hart is s must read for anyone who thinks that the God of Love would create an eternal torment for the transgression of finite creatures.

 

[Vee]

Peace and blessings,

I believe the belief in hell is a very rational belief to have and that a holy book that claims that is the result of x or y type people, it must justify why and manifest this beyond doubt.

There are different reasons as to why hell exists and why it's perpetual and never ends.

There are sufficient proofs (each in themselves) and then there the philosophy of all the proofs making a case together, that to me prove it beyond doubt.

Any holy book claiming to be from God but doesn't prove it's tenants, is deficient. As for hell, I believe the Quran has commented on it from many different angles, and different reasons, as to why, it exists.

This thread is to unlock reflections on these reasons as to gain it's insights in this respect as to the philosophy of why hell must exist and for certain exists.

The subject is repeated in Quran and is in fact connected with almost every topic of the Quran. That is it uses whatever discussion to then manifest an aspect or a sufficient proof to hell-fire and it's perpetual never ending reality.

It's assumed every mention of hell is just emotional bullying, but another way, is to look at is contextualizing it with subjects so as to prove it from different aspects.

Let's say, for argument sake, that when people die, there is a spiritual part of the person - a soul - that survives. That soul no longer has a physical body, and without a physical body, it doesn't have physical feelings. No hunger, no fatigue, no cold, no heat... Nothing physical can affect a spiritual being.
If that's the case, what would be the point of sending the "bad" soul to a place of eternal damnation by fire, when they can't feel the heat and can't get burned? You can torture the poor soul with eternal boredom by looking at flames all day, but that's it. No physical body, no physical punishment.
That's one of many reasons why the eternal punishment in a hell of fire doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[Link]

There are other threads about proving God, this is not the topic. We are instead doing given God exists, can we prove hell.

I proposed there is an evil that stems from such a place of God's wrath that is absolutely opposite to goodness as defined metaphysically with being drawn to God. I believe the heart of that, is that it results in the opposite of God's pleasure, which is his wrath.

The question is, is evil just a trivial thing? Or is such that it deserves God's perpetual wrath. I will be getting more into this discussion with different topics.

One topic, is oppression. God's hand is such that it he uses those who guide by the truth to remove oppression. If the best people are opposed and envied, and the evil people see them as evil, the question is why? Why such confusion?

I propose again, the oppression that misguiding leaders are followed with respect to, is only possible when people incline to evil and reject the truthful guides. This is why aside from the envy issue, apathy is also stemming from the tree of hell, and siding with the evil oppressors, is not trivial.

That and the hate is directed towards faith in God and his chosen ones, which the root stems from a tree of hell opposite to goodness. This evil, being opposite to goodness, get's the opposite reaction from God than it does when people incline to the good and pure tree.

Evil being from the opposite of goodness deserves perpetual wrath.

 

[Link]

Another proof, is if the further we praise, magnify, and glorify goodness in humans, the further we see it's opposite, the evil, as deserving God's wrath. What is meant by evil is of course, not trivial sins here and there, or slips out of weakness or heedless moves out of desires, but a perpetual state where one is with the oppressors, and falsehood or fails to recognize goodness and it's proper path for life out of envy and hate towards the truth and God's chosen and his light.

This is what is meant by opposite. Again, this thread is not about proving God or his Messengers, it's about given they exist, can we prove hell is rational to believe.

 

[Link]

Let's say, for argument sake, that when people die, there is a spiritual part of the person - a soul - that survives. That soul no longer has a physical body, and without a physical body, it doesn't have physical feelings. No hunger, no fatigue, no cold, no heat... Nothing physical can affect a spiritual being.
If that's the case, what would be the point of sending the "bad" soul to a place of eternal damnation by fire, when they can't feel the heat and can't get burned? You can torture the poor soul with eternal boredom by looking at flames all day, but that's it. No physical body, no physical punishment.
That's one of many reasons why the eternal punishment in a hell of fire doesn't make any sense to me.

God can create pain. Not only can he do it, but so can his Angels create such a reality of pain.

 

[Thief]

Peace and blessings,

I believe the belief in hell is a very rational belief to have and that a holy book that claims that is the result of x or y type people, it must justify why and manifest this beyond doubt.

There are different reasons as to why hell exists and why it's perpetual and never ends.

There are sufficient proofs (each in themselves) and then there the philosophy of all the proofs making a case together, that to me prove it beyond doubt.

Any holy book claiming to be from God but doesn't prove it's tenants, is deficient. As for hell, I believe the Quran has commented on it from many different angles, and different reasons, as to why, it exists.

This thread is to unlock reflections on these reasons as to gain it's insights in this respect as to the philosophy of why hell must exist and for certain exists.

The subject is repeated in Quran and is in fact connected with almost every topic of the Quran. That is it uses whatever discussion to then manifest an aspect or a sufficient proof to hell-fire and it's perpetual never ending reality.

It's assumed every mention of hell is just emotional bullying, but another way, is to look at is contextualizing it with subjects so as to prove it from different aspects.

you end up alongside others like yourself

if there is no One in charge to keep the peace

that would be hell

 

[Link]

Another concept is, what happens, to the weak, who just followed people who lead them astray. The Quran says, why, did you incline to them and not give God's guidance a chance to guide you. Therefore apathy and carelessness in the battle between truth and falsehood, and good and evil, though may not necessarily be stemming from evil envy, is also a type of evil opposite to caring about the truth and supporting it's truthful chosen guides.

Again, we aren't discussing whether tree of light or tree of evil exists, we are saying given they exist, what should be the punishment for those who oppose the blessed tree and side with the misguidance.

Although apathy is lost less evil then envy, it stems from the evil tree and an opposite place to caring and resolve, as such it also in the camp where God's perpetual wrath occurs.

Part of the harms that occur when we are apathetic, is the worse lead people and confuse others about right and wrong, and also create conjecture and lies as they spread havoc and oppression in the land.

There are real harms that occur in the world, but these are just small manifestations, of the evil in their hearts. The real evil is what is in God's sight, he knows what the tree of hell is really, and knows the various degrees of evil, and no knows fully but God any servant and their complete state, but we can rationalize, it's the opposite of caring and hence, deserves perpetual wrath as well.

What should be the punishment of those who take paths other then a path leading to God? This will be the next topic.