Proof for you all

[gnostic]

5 Thus says God the LORD,
Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it,
Who gives breath to the people on it,
And spirit to those who walk on it:
6 “ I, the LORD, have called You in righteousness,
And will hold Your hand;

We see this in Mohammeds trust in God.
Abu Bakr was frightened when pursuers came close to the cavern in which he and Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) were hiding during their flight, but the Prophet (pbuh) heartened him,
"Grieve not. Allah is with us."
A guard was kept at the Prophet's house in Madinah because of the danger that surrounded him but he had it withdrawn when the Quranic verse was revealed:
"Allah will protect you from the people" (translation of Qur'an 5:67).

I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people,
As a light to the Gentiles,
7 To open blind eyes,

Any person who has the slightest idea of Islamic history knows that Mohammed did this in an undoubtful unquestionable way. The Arabs were desert nomads, the Persians passed them and didnt even bother conquering them. The Romans didnt bother conquering them also, they didnt even bother converting them to Christianity! They were in great darkness. They would go to war for the st**idest reason. One war lasted for fourty years, over what? Over a donkey. Can you imagine! Mohammed transfered this nation in less then 20 years to a nation that 100 years after his death would conquer half of the world and lead the world into the world of sciences and math.

To bring out prisoners from the prison,
Those who sit in darkness from the prison house.

Obviously the Arab Pagans who worshiped more than 300 Gods were prisoners of there sins and ignorance. But also, if we take the verse in a literal aspect, we find that it also fits Mohammed!
Abu Aziz, a witness who was a polytheist and POW during the Battle of Badr narrates, "They (the Muslims) ate bread and dates, and they would divide their food with me. They would prefer me to themselves, giving me the dates and eating the bread. I would return the dates to them, out of embarrasment of their actions, but they would insist that I eat them.
And Mohammed freed hundreds of prisoners. Almost all prisoners that were taken.

So metaphorically it fits him and literally it also fits him.

I found your interpretation to the Isaiah 42:6-7 to be awfully contrived.

I the LORD, in My grace, have summoned you,
And I have grasped you by the hand.
I created you, and appointed you
A covenant people, a light of nations -
Opening eyes deprived of light,
Rescuing prisoners from confinement,
From the dungeon those who sit in darkness.

For one, there's no Gentile in the translation, which you have quoted:

As a light to the Gentiles....

It should be:

Opening eyes deprived of light...

Second, it talked of the "A convenant people, a light of nations...." at the end of 42:6. This has nothing to "light of nations" has nothing to do with Islam or Muslims or Arabs, because in Isaiah 49:6, it explained who are light of nations, which I have previously quoted:

My God has said:
"It is too little that you should be My servant
In that I raise up the tribes of Jacob
And restored the survivors of Israel:
I will also make you a light of nations,
That My salvation may reach the ends of the earth."

Many of the quotes you have used in Isaiah 42, can be found elsewhere, which have to do with either Jacob himself, or with land of Israel. This validate what I have quoted.

You have the tendency use selected quotes out of context with the other chapters, Islam. But no doubt you would ignore this post as you have done in the past.

 

[s2a]

Islam, despite your efforts (citing Isaiah-how original) I remain unmoved, unpersuaded, and unchanged in my perspective.

Religious claims are bunk.

Happy Holidays.

 

[NoahideHiker]

Its a matter of common sence, a vaig general statement such as my servant couldnt possibly just by applied to Jacoub peace be upon him. Techinically all worshipers of God are his servants especially his prophets.

Actually I feel it goes beyond common sense. When we are trying to understand a word or phrase in Torah we need to look at the other examples where the word or phrase is used. If we can find enough examples of the word or phrase we can easily see the meaning of the word or phrase. If we find six other examples of the same termology within the very book the questioning phrase is in it's fairly simple to know who the servent is.

Yes we are all His servants, if we do what He wants of us, but there are times when a term is singular and not pertaining to a whole.

 

[Islam]

gnostic, it is there, the gentiles, read it here
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=42&version=31
its the King james version

 

[Islam]

KPereira vbmenu_register("postmenu_687319", true); , I just convey the message, you can accept it you can decline it. The message is God is one, he has no partners, and believe in his messengers inluding Jesus Christ. I am obligated as a Muslim to do so, to show you what islam is about so on judgment day if God asks me what I was doing when a non Muslim wanted to know about Islam but no one was there and I tell him i was drinking tea or whatever, I could go to hell. This is the message, he is one far more exhalted he is then to begett. You chose to worship Jesus pbuh who never claimed to be God or took credit for any of the miracles he did, fine, im not God to judge you, I just give you the message.

 

[KPereira]

KPereira vbmenu_register("postmenu_687319", true); , I just convey the message, you can accept it you can decline it. The message is God is one, he has no partners, and believe in his messengers inluding Jesus Christ. I am obligated as a Muslim to do so, to show you what islam is about so on judgment day if God asks me what I was doing when a non Muslim wanted to know about Islam but no one was there and I tell him i was drinking tea or whatever, I could go to hell. This is the message, he is one far more exhalted he is then to begett. You chose to worship Jesus pbuh who never claimed to be God or took credit for any of the miracles he did, fine, im not God to judge you, I just give you the message.

God has no partners? How come in the Bible it mentions the Holy Spirit? What is the Holy Spirit then? And what about Jesus who claims to be the Son of God? It is your word against the Bible's.

Jesus never claimed to be God? He claimed to be the Son of God. Jesus never taking credit for the miracles He did? He said that through faith, He was able to perform them. If Jesus said, 'Yeah, all these miracles...that was all Me'...He would have claimed to be God Himself. He would have been killed on the spot, in those days.

You just give me the message? Trying to use the Bible against my own religion, randomly selecting quotes to suit your argument?

 

[KPereira]

To further expand on my previous post, I'd like to add that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are 3 separate things, but One. We are different people, yet on ONE forum. God is the Father and Jesus is the Son. That makes them equal.

 

[Islam]

God has no partners?

He doesnt. Its called monotheism.

How come in the Bible it mentions the Holy Spirit?

He is Gods angel, like the rest of them.

And what about Jesus who claims to be the Son of God?

In the language of the Jew, son of God means a rightouse man, a servant of God etc. The Bible ascrives TONS of sons to God.
(a) 'Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the SON OF GOD." LUKE 3:38 (b) "That the SONS OF GOD saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took wives of all which they chose. ". . when the SONS OF GOD came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown." GENESIS 6:2 and 4 (c) " . . Thus- saith the Lord, Israel is MY SON even my FIRSTBORN." EXODUS 4:22 (d) " . . and Ephraim is my FIRSTBORN," JEREMIAH 31:9 (e) " . . Thou (o David) ART MY SON; this day have I (God) BEGOTTEN thee. " PSALMS 2:7 (TONS A ton is 2000 lbs weight, that is about a thousand kilograms.) ("FIRST BORN:" How can there be two "firstborns"?) ("BEGOTTEN" How can God beget David at the age of forty? "This day'?)
Is this literally? No, its metaphorically. The same with Jesus.

It is your word against the Bible's.

Have you got any idea how many contradictions the Bible has? How many scientific errors? How many plaigarisms? Any book claiming to be of God should be perfect, the Bible isnt according to your own scholars.
http://www.jamaat.net/bible/AwakeArticle(1957).html

Plagiarism is found in Isaiah 37 & 2 Kings 19 and is exposed, where we find extracts attributed to authors living 1000 of years apart to be identical to the letter. The obvious indictment would be on God that he had absentmindedly dictated the same tale twice. Contradictions such as numerical variants in 2 Samuel 10:18 and 1 Chronicles 19:18, Dichotomy as in 2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1 and downright foolishness as in 2 Chronicles 36:9 and 2 Kings 24:8 are expressly discussed. Furthermore, the immoral aspects of the Christian scud where descriptions of the genital organs occur in Ezekiel 23:19-20 as well as the unlawful relationships described in Genesis 19:30 and Genesis 38 is questioned as to how they could be found placed in a book whose "HOLINESS" is attributed to God.

It is mentioned in Ezra, Ch. No.2, Verse No.1, and Nehemiah, Ch. No.7, Verse No.6, that… ‘When the people returned from exile, from Babylon, when king Nebucheldeser of Babylon, when he released the men from Israel, they came back from captivity’ - and the list of the people is given. The list is given in Ezra, Ch. No.2, Verse No.2 to 63, and Nehemiah Ch. No.7, Verse No.7 up to 65; the list is given with the names as well as number of people released. In these 60 Verses there are no less than 18 times - the name is exactly the same but the number is different. There are no less than 18 contradictions in less than 60 Verses, of these two Chapters. This is the list - I don’t have time to run through the list - There are no less than 18 different contradictions in less than 60 Verses. Further it is mentioned in Ezra, Ch. No.2 Verse No.64 that… ‘The total congregation, if you add it up, it comes to 42,360.’ And if you read in Nehemiah, Ch. No.7, Verse No.66, there also the total is the same 42,360. But if you add up all these verses - which I had to do my homework - if you add up, Ezra Ch. No. 2 - It does not come to 42,360 - it comes to 29,818. And if you add up Nehemiah, Ch. No. 7, even then it does not come to 42,360 - It comes to 31,089. The author of the Bible, presumed to be ‘Almighty God’, does not know simple addition. If you give this problem, even to a person who has passed elementary school, he will be able to get the right answer.

My word against the Bibles huh?

 

[Islam]

God has no partners?

He doesnt. Its called monotheism.

How come in the Bible it mentions the Holy Spirit?

He is Gods angel, like the rest of them.

And what about Jesus who claims to be the Son of God?

In the language of the Jew, son of God means a rightouse man, a servant of God etc. The Bible ascrives TONS of sons to God.
(a) 'Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the SON OF GOD." LUKE 3:38 (b) "That the SONS OF GOD saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took wives of all which they chose. ". . when the SONS OF GOD came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown." GENESIS 6:2 and 4 (c) " . . Thus- saith the Lord, Israel is MY SON even my FIRSTBORN." EXODUS 4:22 (d) " . . and Ephraim is my FIRSTBORN," JEREMIAH 31:9 (e) " . . Thou (o David) ART MY SON; this day have I (God) BEGOTTEN thee. " PSALMS 2:7 (TONS A ton is 2000 lbs weight, that is about a thousand kilograms.) ("FIRST BORN:" How can there be two "firstborns"?) ("BEGOTTEN" How can God beget David at the age of forty? "This day'?)
Is this literally? No, its metaphorically. The same with Jesus.

It is your word against the Bible's.

Have you got any idea how many contradictions the Bible has? How many scientific errors? How many plaigarisms? Any book claiming to be of God should be perfect, the Bible isnt according to your own scholars.
http://www.jamaat.net/bible/AwakeArticle(1957).html

Plagiarism is found in Isaiah 37 & 2 Kings 19 and is exposed, where we find extracts attributed to authors living 1000 of years apart to be identical to the letter. The obvious indictment would be on God that he had absentmindedly dictated the same tale twice. Contradictions such as numerical variants in 2 Samuel 10:18 and 1 Chronicles 19:18, Dichotomy as in 2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1 and downright foolishness as in 2 Chronicles 36:9 and 2 Kings 24:8 are expressly discussed. Furthermore, the immoral aspects of the Christian scud where descriptions of the genital organs occur in Ezekiel 23:19-20 as well as the unlawful relationships described in Genesis 19:30 and Genesis 38 is questioned as to how they could be found placed in a book whose "HOLINESS" is attributed to God.

It is mentioned in Ezra, Ch. No.2, Verse No.1, and Nehemiah, Ch. No.7, Verse No.6, that… ‘When the people returned from exile, from Babylon, when king Nebucheldeser of Babylon, when he released the men from Israel, they came back from captivity’ - and the list of the people is given. The list is given in Ezra, Ch. No.2, Verse No.2 to 63, and Nehemiah Ch. No.7, Verse No.7 up to 65; the list is given with the names as well as number of people released. In these 60 Verses there are no less than 18 times - the name is exactly the same but the number is different. There are no less than 18 contradictions in less than 60 Verses, of these two Chapters. This is the list - I don’t have time to run through the list - There are no less than 18 different contradictions in less than 60 Verses. Further it is mentioned in Ezra, Ch. No.2 Verse No.64 that… ‘The total congregation, if you add it up, it comes to 42,360.’ And if you read in Nehemiah, Ch. No.7, Verse No.66, there also the total is the same 42,360. But if you add up all these verses - which I had to do my homework - if you add up, Ezra Ch. No. 2 - It does not come to 42,360 - it comes to 29,818. And if you add up Nehemiah, Ch. No. 7, even then it does not come to 42,360 - It comes to 31,089. The author of the Bible, presumed to be ‘Almighty God’, does not know simple addition. If you give this problem, even to a person who has passed elementary school, he will be able to get the right answer.

My word against the Bibles huh?

 

[gnostic]

gnostic, it is there, the gentiles, read it here
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...=42&version=31
its the King james version

Oh yes; I have forgotten that you preferred using KJV.

As I have said in past posts, I don't use KJV when I am looking for things in the Old Testament. I preferred the English translation of the Tanakh (JPS 1985).

For me, the KJV is too troublesome and archaic. It is also based on late medieval Christian writers.

Even the older JPS translation (1917) doesn't use the word gentile that because the word Gentile was invented until the Christian era. I did a scan on the word for "Gentile", on the whole JPS-1917 (not just in Isaiah), and not once did this word pop up.

The word "gentile" is actually a Middle English word, thus in the time of Shakespeare and KJV authorship. It is a borrowing of Latin word, gentilis, where gens means "family".

All the Biblical quotes I have done in this topic, comes from Tanakh (JPS, 1985), because it is a completely new translation (from the ground-up) in modern English.

Too bad the new JPS doesn't come in electronic or HTML format. Otherwise, I would have cut-and-paste, instead of typing them in, when I am quoting.

If you read the KJV 42:6 with 42:7, it doesn't make sense.

42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
42:7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

It speaks of light and covenant of the people, and the next speak of blindness and darkness. It doesn't make sense, when it speak of the covenant people, which is Israelites in Isaiah's time, because there were no covenant with Christians and Muslims, so why talk of Gentiles?

The JPS makes more sense with "Opening eyes deprived of light"

42:6 I the LORD, in My grace, have summoned you,
And I have grasped you by the hand.
I created you, and appointed you
A covenant people, a light of nations -
42:7 Opening eyes deprived of light,
Rescuing prisoners from confinement,
From the dungeon those who sit in darkness.

because prisoners are usually confined in darkness of their prison cell, which is why it had "...from the dungeon those sit in darkness." And freeing the prisoner would allow the people to see light.

It has nothing to do with Gentiles, Islam.

Your KJV and you trying to enforce meaning into the life of Muhammad, still seemed conceited:

A guard was kept at the Prophet's house in Madinah because of the danger that surrounded him but he had it withdrawn when the Quranic verse was revealed:
"Allah will protect you from the people" (translation of Qur'an 5:67).

If he kept a guard outside his own house, that doesn't make him a prisoner or him being in prison. This is so artificial and forced an interpretation between your prophet and to Isaiah 42:6-7.

As I said, Islam, some part of verses found in Isaiah's chapter 42, can be found elsewhere in Isaiah's other chapters, which relates either to Jacob or to the kingdom of Israel.

 

[Islam]

So Gnostic why did they add the word gentiles? Can they do that to the word of God?

 

[gnostic]

Can they do that to the word of God?

Do you always forget that I'm not a Christian, Islam?

I don't believe in the "words of God"....yet.

I don't believe that God have written a single thing, and I want real proof before I am convinced. I can't and won't rely solely on faith that whatever prophets, saints, clerics or scholars have written at face value, simply because they have claimed have the "words of God". God didn't hold the pen or quill, or whatever mean to write a single line of words.

Everything, meaning every scriptures, were written by men, not God. And that include the Bible, Torah/Tanakh, your Qur'an and Hadith, the Book of Mormon, everything. The best they can claimed is that God had spoken to them, and they had recorded in their writing, but nothing was written by God.

You of all people should know that when words are translated, particularly into English, you can't simply do a literal translation. Often these literal-translated words turned out to be ghibberish, so the translator must do their best, to make it understandable; therefore they must paraphrase what they have translated.

• And everyone translate differently depending on the person's grasp for both languages, which in the Qur'an's case, Arabic and English.
• It also depend on the style of person doing the translation, because when a poet do translating, they may have the tendency to be flowery with words, which may change the context of the original text. If I recall correctlly, there were a few poets among those who were doing the translation for the KJV.
• And finally it depends on the limitation of the language.

If you looked at English translations of the Qur'an, not all the translated everything in the same style.

So please don't give me this crap about someone changing the words of God. Of course, they can. You have done so, yourself. You have tried to interpret the Bible so that Muhammad is found everywhere in the Bible, with complete disregard to the original context of message. You have selective cut-and-paste passage, here and there, trying to force Islamic meaning into the bible that aren't there.

By experience, I'm an mythologist, and I have to read a number of literature, which require me not only sift through different versions of myths, but also comparing different translations of the same myths, and I know when I see a propaganda. And I see this from you and other Muslims. I have also seen propaganda from Christians too.

This topic and the contents in it, is nothing more than a propaganda, to promote your prophet and your religion. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[YmirGF]

Do you always forget that I'm not a Christian, Islam?

I don't believe in the "words of God"....yet.

This topic and the contents in it, is nothing more than a propaganda, to promote your prophet and your religion. Nothing more, nothing less.

I agree aGnostic Storyteller. The simple fact is that "Islam" is not even slightly interested in the opinions of others unless they neatly mesh with his own. There is almost zero possibility he will seriously consider that he is in error. It is in some respects fairly pathetic.

In all fairness I'd love to see even one NON-Muslim "scholar" who agreed that Muhammed is referenced in the Christian Bible. Is there one? Frankly, I would prefer several such scholars, but hey, even one might be interesting.

I also find it amazingly curious that such a corrupt work could consistently show the validity of Prophet Muhammed [pbuh]. Doesn't that strike you are being a bit odd "Islam"? Doesn't it strike you are being rather convenient? Doesn't it strike you as being a bit of a farce?

 

[Islam]

No actually it doesnt I believe that God can preserve anything he wants, The Bible be it Ot or NT was only ment for the people of their times, so they werent preserved perfectly, but God ppreserved the telling of things to come because they were relevant. Yes you may not like what Im saying but its true. You all know that the Bible has its errors and uscientific facts, what does that tell u? That its Gods word? No.

 

[YmirGF]

No actually it doesnt I believe that God can preserve anything he wants, The Bible be it Ot or NT was only ment for the people of their times, so they werent preserved perfectly, but God ppreserved the telling of things to come because they were relevant.

LOL. That is amusing. You do understand how utterly absurd your thinking is, correct? Indeed, I suppose "god" can preserve that which "he" wishes but in reality one is skating on rather thin intellectual ice.

Yes you may not like what Im saying but its true.

NO. That is where you are dead wrong. You BELIEVE it is true. That does not make it so. There is a rather huge fundamental difference. If your interesting premise were in fact truth, it would NOT be disputed. Virtually all thinking people would simply agree -- as it is the truth. Get it?
Likewise insisting that "it is God's word" is wholly unsupportable. Again, it is what you BELIEVE, that does NOT mean it is TRUE. Obviously One ought to be able to independently verify these insinuations. You have to bare in mind that I have "researched" the concept of Jesus as God and simply due to the nature of Oneness, Jesus IS God... as all beings are a part of God/The One. Therefore "Islam" is god too, as is Jesus... again due to the nature of Oneness. :flirt:

You all know that the Bible has its errors and unscientific facts, what does that tell u? That its Gods word? No.

Again, I hate to burst the bubble and piddle on your parade but the Bible has NEVER claimed to be scientific unlike the ludicrously arrogant claims of other religions regarding their religious texts. Only an utter fool would claim that the Bible (or any book) is without "error". Likewise only a terribly dogmatic Christian would imply that the Bible is the unerring "WOG" or "word of Gawd". Try to understand how hard I chuckle when I hear these claims of divine origin. All so-called proofs are almost entirely self-supporting or promulgated by the devotees of said religions. That's just not cricket.

 

[Islam]

Any book claiming to be Gods word must be perfect. God is perfect, he makes no errors. If that book has one single error its no good.

 

[YmirGF]

Any book claiming to be Gods word must be perfect. God is perfect, he makes no errors. If that book has one single error its no good.

If that is the case then pointing at said works as being proof of ones prophet is intellectual suicide.

 

[Islam]

Please explain.

 

[MaddLlama]

*gasp* I have seen the light! I'm off to convert this instant!

:shout

 

[s2a]

Islam,

Peace be upon you.

Allow my inquiry to invite the articulated truth of your understanding.

There are many definitions of what constitutes "proof".

In the instance of faith-based beliefs, "proof" is untestable (and most often deemed by adherents as undeniable). As it happens, "faith" is defined as a belief that is not based upon proof. How does one prove a belief that in and of itself, is not reliant upon proof as a matter of adherence as measurable or testable evidentiary fact?

Recall, if you will, your introduction and instruction regarding mathematical "proofs" in lessons of Geometry. Looking at an equilateral triangle (as presented), a student might readily perceive and conclude that each side of the triangle is of equal measure in length, and therefore the measure of each angle within that triangle is also equal in degree. I mean hey, you can just look at it, and see that it is so. But what we can "see", slap our heads and say aloud, "It's obvious that I'm looking at an equilateral triangle!"; may or may not always be so.
Enter the geometric formulas and measures that allow anyone to substantially conclude, and not merely assume, the "proof" of any presented (apparent) equilateral triangle. If and when tested to "prove" that what you think you see to be an equilateral triangle, there is a methodology and universally accepted set of standards upon which to establish a "proven" conclusion as being "true".

Geometric proofs and formulas

If belief in Allah is not predicated upon faith alone, then by what means or methodology is His existence to be "proven"? What accepted formula is to be employed? What measure of boundaries (startpoint/endpoint) is to be assessed? What failing results would constitute disproof of the assumption/claim/belief? Is there any test/measure/formula/methodology that could ultimately "disprove" Allah as being allegedly existent and actual?

You can present me with your claimed example of a "perfect, three-sided triangle", and I can employ very exacting methods to either verify, or nullify, your claim (no matter how much you may "believe" your example to be a perfected representation of an equilateral triangle). Your claim can be tested, measured, evaluated, and independently confirmed/falsified as being either "proven" true, or false.

In faith-based beliefs, there is no need to provide any mechanism of "disproof" of a claim, for the claim itself is not predicated upon any evidential proof.

If you wish your claim of Allah to be deemed of any merit as demonstrable fact, then you must provide the mechanism or measure by which a definitive disproof is available in objective test.

Claims are not "proof", nor are they even "evidence" in support of an alleged claim of "proof"...if the claim itself presents no empirical evidence (beyond testimonies of faith) that can be subjected to test, measure, objectively independent observation, or falsification.

Your submitted "proof" of Allah as a god has no merit or substance of any value unless or until you can provide the mechanism(s) by which to test and ultimately verify or falsify the claims as evidential fact beyond reasonable doubt. Until you can provide a satisfactory test or method of "disproof" of your god, there is no reasonable motivation or default expectation to assume that your claims have any estimable value as "proof" whatsoever.

I have provided you a referenced source from which to formulaically "prove" or "disprove" any "claimed as presented" equilateral triangle I might present as unequivocal fact.

What source of methodological implementations do you reference as definitive test of your claim that Allah exists, as a matter of evaluative and empirical fact?

Piety, devotion, ardent belief, or earnestly heartfelt declarations of existential "truth"--none of these traits constitute either proof or evidence of anything beyond faith itself. If my observation is false, then what is the infallible test of "true faith"?.How does an objective observer test a believer's piety, devotion, or adherence to their ascribed deity or "creator"?