• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Proof for you all

Islam

Member
What source of methodological implementations do you reference as definitive test of your claim that Allah exists

Very simple. The glorius Quran. I think you should read it. It has tons of scientific miracles which were impossible to be known by man 1400 years ago (the time the Quran was written). Allah (God) says in Sura Al Qiyama that:

In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.
I do call to witness the Resurrection Day;
And I do call to witness the self-reproaching spirit: (Eschew Evil).
Does man think that We cannot assemble his bones?
Nay, We are able to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers.

(note: We is a plural of respect. It does not stand for a trinity or anything like that. God in Islam is one who has no partners whatsoever. He has no son and He does not begett nor is he begotten)

Of course as you know today we know that a persons finger prints is a very unique thing. And that each person has a unique finger print, how did Mohammed know this 1400 years ago? The Quran speaks about the expansion of the universe, the creation of all living things from water, the barrier seperating the sweet and salt in the sea, tens and tens of other scientific miracles. Professor Keith Moore (hopefully i spelled his name correctly) is one of the greatest scientists in Canada in the field of embryology. He converted to Islam after reading the Quran saying that indeed the Quran speaks of things which we have just now come to know and that there is not one single unscientific fact in it.
The Quran has mathmatical miracles, gramaticaly it was so elequent that Arabic gramar was derived from it, and in the Quran Allah issues a challenge for all those who say that Mohammed wrote it and not God, that they should produce ONE chapter like it if they can, of course no one even dared to step up until this day.
For some of the Quranic miracles, go on youtube and search for "quranic miracles" and see the results, they are astonishing, and read a Quran for yourself, even if you wont become a Muslim its a very nice experience, literature wise the very least.
 

Islam

Member

In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.
I do call to witness the Resurrection Day;
And I do call to witness the self-reproaching spirit: (Eschew Evil).
Does man think that We cannot assemble his bones?
Nay, We are able to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers.
But man wishes to do wrong (even) in the time in front of him.
He questions: "When is the Day of Resurrection?"
At length, when the sight is dazed,
And the moon is buried in darkness.
And the sun and moon are joined together,-
That Day will Man say: "Where is the refuge?"
By no means! No place of safety!
Before thy Lord (alone), that Day will be the place of rest.
That Day will Man be told (all) that he put forward, and all that he put back.
Nay, man will be evidence against himself,
Even though he were to put up his excuses.
Move not thy tongue concerning the (Qur'an) to make haste therewith.
It is for Us to collect it and to promulgate it:
But when We have promulgated it, follow thou its recital (as promulgated):
Nay more, it is for Us to explain it (and make it clear):
Nay, (ye men!) but ye love the fleeting life,
And leave alone the Hereafter.
Some faces, that Day, will beam (in brightness and beauty);-
Looking towards their Lord;

And some faces, that Day, will be sad and dismal,
In the thought that some back-breaking calamity was about to be inflicted on them;

Yea, when (the soul) reaches to the collar-bone (in its exit),
there will be a cry, "Who is a magician (to restore him)?"
And he will conclude that it was (the Time) of Parting;
And one leg will be joined with another:
That Day the Drive will be (all) to thy Lord!
So he gave nothing in charity, nor did he pray!-
But on the contrary, he rejected Truth and turned away!
Then did he stalk to his family in full conceit!
Woe to thee, (O men!), yea, woe!
Again, Woe to thee, (O men!), yea, woe!

Does man think that he will be left uncontrolled, (without purpose)?
Was he not a drop of sperm emitted (in lowly form)?
Then did he become a leech-like clot; then did (Allah) make and fashion (him) in due proportion.
And of him He made two sexes, male and female.
Has not He, (the same), the power to give life to the dead?

(Quran, chapter 75)
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Islam said:
For some of the Quranic miracles, go on youtube and search for "quranic miracles" and see the results, they are astonishing, and read a Quran for yourself, even if you wont become a Muslim its a very nice experience, literature wise the very least.
About the only miracle of the Qur'an is that it has managed to hang around for 1400 years. I find it difficult to believe the biased accounts of a "revert" to Islam. Am I missing something? Show me NON-Muslim scientists that agree and I might sit up and listen. Have you heard the expression, "a stacked deck"?
 

Mister_T

Forum Relic
Premium Member
MaddLlama said:
Some scientists and atheists have become Christian after reading the Bible. That proves that the Bible is true too. :rolleyes:
Not to mention the religious folk that have turned atheist after studying philosophy and science.
 
W

Withdrawnmist

Guest
Islam said:
I will show you scientists who werent Muslims and converted after reading the Quran! And that proves that its true!
You can read and also watch there comments here:
http://islamyesterday.com/science/
Sorry...just because a scientist becomes a muslim does not constitute proof..in MY opinion...how ever..in MY opinion I can see that it does constitute prrof which is good enough for you..and I recognise that !


I've glanced this thread..(sorry that me has not spent more time but if it were made more welcoming in the first place rather than a 'declaration of fact 'then me might have afforded it more time).....it does seem a tad provocative !...but then....the use of a particular tone is going to make me think that isn't it ?..but I don't suppose you can see that.
 

Islam

Member
Some scientists and atheists have become Christian after reading the Bible. That proves that the Bible is true too. :rolleyes:

Who exactly? No scientist on earth can make the statement that the Bible is compatible with science. Even the creation of the universe in the Bible is wrong. Are we to assume that God Almighti does not know how He created His universe? (God forbid!)
 

gnostic

The Lost One
MM said:
I will show you scientists who werent Muslims and converted after reading the Quran! And that proves that its true!
:biglaugh:

:sorry1: MM, but that's arguement is truly weak.

It would only prove that they converted.

It's not proof that science and Islam goes together hand-in-hand.

I have read of lot of so-called claims of the Qur'an having scientific basis before, here and other site, and they often based upon a single obscure verse, line or sentence, which could mean many things. And all I ever do is laugh at the effort. So far, I've not found a single claim to be scientific-worthy.
 

s2a

Heretic and part-time (skinny) Santa impersonator
Hello again Islam,

When I said:
What source of methodological implementations do you reference as definitive test of your claim that Allah exists?

You replied:
Very simple. The glorius Quran. I think you should read it. It has tons of scientific miracles which were impossible to be known by man 1400 years ago (the time the Quran was written).

It would be unwise to assume that I have not read the Quran.

"Impossible" is a dangerous and reckless conclusion to suggest, considering how history continues to reflect the errancy of that determination.

You cite Sura Al Qiyama, then offer:
Of course as you know today we know that a persons finger prints is a very unique thing. And that each person has a unique finger print, how did Mohammed know this 1400 years ago?

Is a common observation, readily determined in almost any person's experience, really all that miraculous or insightful?

The Quran speaks about the expansion of the universe, the creation of all living things from water, the barrier seperating the sweet and salt in the sea, tens and tens of other scientific miracles.

Why are any of these circumstantial consequences of nature to be considered "miraculous"? Is current scientific/cosmological theory based upon the Quran, or other evidences?

And cosmological expansion? Sorry, but the Quran is late to the party in cosmological origin "theories". Hinduism dates back to at least 2500BC, and arguably as far back as 6000BC. Hindu cosmology posits multiple, unending cycles of cosmic creation, expansion, dimunition, and recreation ((one lifecycle of Brahma is 311 trillion years). "Cyclicity cosmologies" (which infer both expansion and contraction of the cosmos) are also resident within historic Mayan, Egyptian, and Babylonian cultures. All predate the miraculous "insights" (scientific or not) afforded by the Quran.
Life spawning from water? Do you really believe that Islamic creation mythology predates all others in this view? I could recommend a few books for you to read...;-)

Professor Keith Moore (hopefully i spelled his name correctly) is one of the greatest scientists in Canada in the field of embryology. He converted to Islam after reading the Quran saying that indeed the Quran speaks of things which we have just now come to know and that there is not one single unscientific fact in it.

A wonderful testimony of religious faith and conversion, not of any merited scientific fact.

The Quran has mathmatical miracles, gramaticaly it was so elequent that Arabic gramar was derived from it, and in the Quran Allah issues a challenge for all those who say that Mohammed wrote it and not God, that they should produce ONE chapter like it if they can, of course no one even dared to step up until this day.

No one "dared", or bothered?
Is there anything more fruitlessly futile that attempting to disprove a claim (faith-based or otherwise) that can not be falsified by any empirical methodology?

For some of the Quranic miracles, go on youtube and search for "quranic miracles" and see the results, they are astonishing, and read a Quran for yourself, even if you wont become a Muslim its a very nice experience, literature wise the very least.

Thanks, but no thanks. I've seen plenty of purported "miracles" as offered by the faithful in photos, print, and video that were supposed to amaze me and astonish my sensibilities.
These proffered "miracles" tend to validate the beliefs of the faithful, but have virtually no impact upon anyone else. Christians routinely "see" the Virgin Mary in shadows, burnt toast, rust stains in train tunnels, and nearly anything else. Believers "see" them, and are amazed at the "miracle". I still see burnt toast.

What's the missing ingredient?
Faith.
Without faith, there is no belief in the "miraculous", the supernatural, or divinely proscribed/ordained. Absent faith...these claims are but testaments to belief itself, not any sort of testable hypotheses subject to objective scientific/empirical methodology or falsification.

I do appreciate your concession that simply reading the Quran may not effect a conversion on my part. I have indulged and referenced the Quran many times through the years, and have read the Bible more often and thoroughly than most Christians I have ever met.

I appreciate that you are a person of faith.
Please appreciate the fact that I am not; but do not assume that my lack of faith is the result of ignorance, or misinformation. I may not see what you see, but neither am I blind.

I see quite ordinary (and plausible) explanations in what you see as extraordinary, or "scientific miracles" in the Quran. As to whom retains the the greater clarity of vision, each must decide for themselves.

I wish you peace in this coming secular New Year,
s2a
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
Islam said:
Open your hearts, be not stubborn, and examine:

Isaiah 42:1-20

(God is speaking, now nottice how exact the description is of Mohammed. It fits like a glove, even more):

1 “Behold! My Servant whom I uphold,
My Elect One in whom My soul delights!
I have put My Spirit upon Him;
He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.

That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,brought justice to the gentiles (the Pagan Arabs at that time). He banned taking interest and the poor Arabs at that time were suffering from the interest inflicted upon them by the rich Arabs. Even once, a man whos money was taken away from him was asking around in Mecca for someone who could defend him and get him back his money which Abu Lahab took from him. The people told him that he should go see a guy named Mohammed. When he told the Prophet what had happened to him the Prophet immediately stormed to the hous of Abu Lahab and ordered him to give the man back his money and he did. Not only did he do that but also:
The Jews, in spite of their hostility to the Prophet (pbuh), were so impressed by his impartiallity and sense of justice that they used to bring their cases to him, and he decided them according to Jewish law. (Abu Dawud, Sunan Dawud)

2 He will not cry out, nor raise His voice,
Nor cause His voice to be heard in the street.

Abu Abdullah Al-Jadali reports that he asked Aishah about the Prophet’s manners. Her answer to him was: “He was never given to using vulgar language, and he would never deliberately do so. Nor would he raise his voice in the market place. He did not reply to a bad deed with a similarly bad one. Rather, he would forbear and forgive.” (Related by Ahmad, Al-Tirmidhi and Abu Dawood Al-Tayalisi)
Abdullah ibn Amr gives a similar report, stressing that the Prophet never used obscenities, whether by spontaneous reaction or deliberately. He then adds that the Prophet used to say: “Those of you who are best in manners are the best of you.” (Related by Al-Bukhai and Muslim)

3 A bruised reed He will not break,
And smoking flax He will not quench;
He will bring forth justice for truth.
4 He will not fail nor be discouraged,
Till He has established justice in the earth;

Not only was Mohammed so persistent to establish Islam on earth and justice. He was even beaten severely and starved peace be upon him. For three years, almost all he had to eat were leaves and what would be snuck to him of meat from sympathizers. He was never discouraged. When beaten, and began to blead he would say:
During the Battle of Uhud, the Prophet’s incisor was broken, . His lower lip was ruptured, and he had a bleeding wound on his forehead. He was constantly drying up the blood to keep it from falling upon the ground, saying, “If any of this blood falls on the ground, Divine Punishment would descend upon them [the Quraysh].” The situation weighed on the Companions, and they implored, “Why do you not pray against them?” He replied, “I have not been sent to damn people. I have been sent as a caller and a mercy. O, God! Forgive my people for they know no better.”
When the Arab Pagans realized the threat Islam was turning into,they went to him and said that they will let him be King of the Arabian peninsula, give him all the money that he would be the richest Arab, and give him all the women he wants, all he had to do was stop calling people for Islam. What did he say? Did he hesitate?
"I sware by the name of Allah O uncle, that if they placed the sun in my right hand and the moon in my left, to force me to renounce my work, verily I would not desist thereform until Allah made manifest His cause, or I perished in the attempt." (Ibid)


And the coastlands shall wait for His law.”

The king of Yemmen at that time, converted to Islam secretely and was waiting for Islam to prevail.

5 Thus says God the LORD,
Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it,
Who gives breath to the people on it,
And spirit to those who walk on it:
6 “ I, the LORD, have called You in righteousness,
And will hold Your hand;

We see this in Mohammeds trust in God.
Abu Bakr was frightened when pursuers came close to the cavern in which he and Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) were hiding during their flight, but the Prophet (pbuh) heartened him,
"Grieve not. Allah is with us."
A guard was kept at the Prophet's house in Madinah because of the danger that surrounded him but he had it withdrawn when the Quranic verse was revealed:
"Allah will protect you from the people" (translation of Qur'an 5:67).

I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people,
As a light to the Gentiles,
7 To open blind eyes,

Any person who has the slightest idea of Islamic history knows that Mohammed did this in an undoubtful unquestionable way. The Arabs were desert nomads, the Persians passed them and didnt even bother conquering them. The Romans didnt bother conquering them also, they didnt even bother converting them to Christianity! They were in great darkness. They would go to war for the st**idest reason. One war lasted for fourty years, over what? Over a donkey. Can you imagine! Mohammed transfered this nation in less then 20 years to a nation that 100 years after his death would conquer half of the world and lead the world into the world of sciences and math.

To bring out prisoners from the prison,
Those who sit in darkness from the prison house.

Obviously the Arab Pagans who worshiped more than 300 Gods were prisoners of there sins and ignorance. But also, if we take the verse in a literal aspect, we find that it also fits Mohammed!
Abu Aziz, a witness who was a polytheist and POW during the Battle of Badr narrates, "They (the Muslims) ate bread and dates, and they would divide their food with me. They would prefer me to themselves, giving me the dates and eating the bread. I would return the dates to them, out of embarrasment of their actions, but they would insist that I eat them.
And Mohammed freed hundreds of prisoners. Almost all prisoners that were taken.

So metaphorically it fits him and literally it also fits him.


8 I am the LORD, that is My name;
And My glory I will not give to another,
Nor My praise to carved images.
9 Behold, the former things have come to pass,
And new things I declare;
Before they spring forth I tell you of them.”
10 Sing to the LORD a new song,
And His praise from the ends of the earth,
You who go down to the sea, and all that is in it,
You coastlands and you inhabitants of them!

Here we see that the Lord is going to sing a new song, meaning a new language, what else other than Arabic? Why song? Listen to someone reciting the Quran and you will know exactly why. Is this a coinsidence? You say no. You see, the Quran was no inspirational revelation like the Holly Bible. It was a verbal revelation. Mohammed just repeats the words he hears.
More explicitly, prophesies Isaiah "For with stammering lips, and another tongue, will he speak to this people" (Isaiah 28:11). This latter verse correctly describes the "stammering lips" of Prophet Muhammad reflecting the state of tension and concentration he went through at the time of revelation. Another related point is that the Qur'an was revealed in piece-meals over a span of twenty three years. It is interesting to compare this with Isaiah 28:10 whichspeaks of the same thing.

Jesus was the prophet here,but not only a prophet a teacher and an eternal king who raise dfrom the dead and defeated death and he brought it with him when he was raised to all those who believe
2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
This is a prophecy regarding Jesus as Matthew gives account
Mat 12:18That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
either the writer of the gospel of Matthew was a liar and not inspired by the holy Spirit or your right and God ,Jesus and the Holy Spirit are wrong.

I believe Jesus was the one to bring deliverence to the gentiles as prophecised in the word of God,Mohammed in actuality took credit and claim to be the one and he also wrote how gentiles and all non muslims were infidels .
There seems to be a conflict here.
 

Islam

Member
Mohammed in actuality took credit and claim to be the one

No he didnt, Im saying this is speaking of him, he never did.

and he also wrote how gentiles and all non muslims were infidels .
There seems to be a conflict here.

No he didnt. The word infidel was invented by the crusaders to label Muslims. Mohammed called non Muslims kafirs which means those who reject Islam, this is common sence and nothing wrong with that. Read the Quran for yourself. As for your toucing paragraph about Jesus dying and I dont know what, sir, Jesus said like Jonah was so shall the son of man be. Jonah was ALIVE. What was Jesus reffering to? The time factor of the three days and three nights? Ok did he fulfill that? No he didnt. He came back after two days , not three days and three nights. If he died and came back to life that means he was UNLIKE Jonah not LIKE. FYI at the time of Mohammed there was no such thing as an Arabic bible be it OT or NT yet we find tens of prophecies about him. When John the baptist went to the jews they asked him and said art thou the christ ? art thou elias? Art thou THAT PROPHET? ANd he said no to all of them. WHos that prophet? The cross refference says that this is the prophet of deutronemy. What does deutronemy say? Chapter 18 verse 18. God said while talking to Moses that "I shall raise for them a prophet from among there brethren". Who is the Jews' brethren? The Arabs! The verse continues, and he shall be like thee (like Moses). Mohammed was very much like Moses. And the verse continues "and I shall put my words into his mouth". This is the Holly Quran which was a verbal revelation not an inspirational one like the Holly Bible.
Also in song of songs he is mentioned by name (check my topic about Song of Songs here in biblcal debates forum).
And as I said, what on earth does Jesus Christ peace be upon him have to do with Mecca in Saudia Arabia! The verse said the land where Kedar inhabits rejoice! Kedar inhabbited Mecca!!! What is the ppl of Mecca today? 100000% Muslims.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Islam said:
And as I said, what on earth does Jesus Christ peace be upon him have to do with Mecca in Saudia Arabia! The verse said the land where Kedar inhabits rejoice! Kedar inhabbited Mecca!!! What is the ppl of Mecca today? 100000% Muslims.
The people of Kedar rejoicing, doesn't mean that a prophet will come out of Kedar. No matter how you do it, you can't equate a city or villages to a single person.

If you looked at the previous verse, Isaiah 42:10
Isaiah 42:10 said:
Sing to the LORD a new song.
His praise from the ends of the earth -
You who sail the sea and you creatures in it,
You coastlands and their inhabitants!
The "Lord" is referred to as "God", not to a prophet. It is about singing praise to God "from the ends of the earth." Do you seriously expect me to believe that it is about a man, even if he is prophet?

Isaiah 42:12 said:
Let them do honor to the LORD,
And tell His glory in the coastlands.
Often when they speak of God, they use the word Lord to define him. The translation also capitalised the adjectives to distinguish him from man, such "He" or "Him".

When does speaking of prophet referred to "He" or "Him", Islam?

Whenever "he" or "him" referred to a king (like David or Solomon), patriarch (like Abraham, or Jacob), or prophet (like Moses or Isaiah), they always distinguish them in writing with lower-case of the first letter, instead of using upper-case of 1st letter when referring to God, and particularly when they refer to his title such "Lord" or "Saviour", "Redeemer", "Holy One", etc. (See Isaiah 60.)

Beside, I don't think it is a prophecy in Isaiah 42. It is more like heaping praises on God, then a prophecy of "new prophet".

In Isaiah 60:7, it speak of flocks of Kedar, etc., but if you read the entire chapter (60), you will see it is talking about Israel, and particularly of Zion (60:9, 14). I think that the flocks of Kedar really means "flock of sheep" (or goats), not people, and that it speaks of Israel's enemies sending animals from other kingdoms, as tributes or offering of sacrifices to Israel.

If you read at the end of chapter 59, it speak of covenant to the people of Israel:

Isaiah 59:21 said:
And this shall be My covenant with them ("them" is referring to the Israelites), said the LORD: My spirits which is upon you (clearly this "you" is referring to Isaiah himself), and the words which I have placed in your mouth, shall not be absent from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your children, nor from the mouth of your children's children - said the LORD - from now on, for all time.
Clearly, chapter 60 is followed from chapter 59.

Also clearly, God intends that all prophets shall be Israelites, and none who are not Israelites, as it can be clearly seen "your children" and in "your children's children" and in "...from now on, for all time."

That is a clear evidence from the book of Isaiah that prophet, particularly from the Hebrew Scripture, the prophet will always be an "Israelite", not an Arab, Persian, Roman, English or American. Not unless Muhammad is descendant from Jacob (Israel), otherwise he has broken his covenant to Isaiah.

Do you believe that God breaks covenant, Islam?

If God make an Arab like Muhammad as a prophet, then he would be breaking his words, wouldn't he?

And if God is in the habit of breaking his words, covenants or promises, then who to say that Muhammad is really the "Last Prophet". Perhaps, Muslims have broken his faith with Allah, and he later chose a new prophet to serve as his "Last Prophet", like Mirza Hoseyn 'Ali Nuri or Baha' Ullah (whatever his name is) or with Joseph Smith.

If God can break his promise with the Israelites, then surely he can break his promise to the Muslims, and send a new so-called prophet. And if God broke his words about all prophets being Israelites, like which you would advocate of Arabic prophet, then that would not stop him sending Iranian prophet or an American prophet at a later date.

If God really broke his words, then essentially his words in the Bible and other scriptures including your Qur'an, are worthless, because he himself can't keep them.
 
Top