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Proof for you all

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Islam, Dec 22, 2006.

  1. Islam

    Islam Member

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    Open your hearts, be not stubborn, and examine:

    Isaiah 42:1-20

    (God is speaking, now nottice how exact the description is of Mohammed. It fits like a glove, even more):

    1 “Behold! My Servant whom I uphold,
    My Elect One in whom My soul delights!
    I have put My Spirit upon Him;
    He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.

    Mohammed brought justice to the gentiles (the Pagan Arabs at that time). He banned taking interest and the poor Arabs at that time were suffering from the interest inflicted upon them by the rich Arabs. Even once, a man whos money was taken away from him was asking around in Mecca for someone who could defend him and get him back his money which Abu Lahab took from him. The people told him that he should go see a guy named Mohammed. When he told the Prophet what had happened to him the Prophet immediately stormed to the hous of Abu Lahab and ordered him to give the man back his money and he did. Not only did he do that but also:
    The Jews, in spite of their hostility to the Prophet (pbuh), were so impressed by his impartiallity and sense of justice that they used to bring their cases to him, and he decided them according to Jewish law. (Abu Dawud, Sunan Dawud)

    2 He will not cry out, nor raise His voice,
    Nor cause His voice to be heard in the street.

    Abu Abdullah Al-Jadali reports that he asked Aishah about the Prophet’s manners. Her answer to him was: “He was never given to using vulgar language, and he would never deliberately do so. Nor would he raise his voice in the market place. He did not reply to a bad deed with a similarly bad one. Rather, he would forbear and forgive.” (Related by Ahmad, Al-Tirmidhi and Abu Dawood Al-Tayalisi)
    Abdullah ibn Amr gives a similar report, stressing that the Prophet never used obscenities, whether by spontaneous reaction or deliberately. He then adds that the Prophet used to say: “Those of you who are best in manners are the best of you.” (Related by Al-Bukhai and Muslim)

    3 A bruised reed He will not break,
    And smoking flax He will not quench;
    He will bring forth justice for truth.
    4 He will not fail nor be discouraged,
    Till He has established justice in the earth;

    Not only was Mohammed so persistent to establish Islam on earth and justice. He was even beaten severely and starved peace be upon him. For three years, almost all he had to eat were leaves and what would be snuck to him of meat from sympathizers. He was never discouraged. When beaten, and began to blead he would say:
    During the Battle of Uhud, the Prophet’s incisor was broken, . His lower lip was ruptured, and he had a bleeding wound on his forehead. He was constantly drying up the blood to keep it from falling upon the ground, saying, “If any of this blood falls on the ground, Divine Punishment would descend upon them [the Quraysh].” The situation weighed on the Companions, and they implored, “Why do you not pray against them?” He replied, “I have not been sent to damn people. I have been sent as a caller and a mercy. O, God! Forgive my people for they know no better.”
    When the Arab Pagans realized the threat Islam was turning into,they went to him and said that they will let him be King of the Arabian peninsula, give him all the money that he would be the richest Arab, and give him all the women he wants, all he had to do was stop calling people for Islam. What did he say? Did he hesitate?
    "I sware by the name of Allah O uncle, that if they placed the sun in my right hand and the moon in my left, to force me to renounce my work, verily I would not desist thereform until Allah made manifest His cause, or I perished in the attempt." (Ibid)


    And the coastlands shall wait for His law.”

    The king of Yemmen at that time, converted to Islam secretely and was waiting for Islam to prevail.

    5 Thus says God the LORD,
    Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
    Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it,
    Who gives breath to the people on it,
    And spirit to those who walk on it:
    6 “ I, the LORD, have called You in righteousness,
    And will hold Your hand;

    We see this in Mohammeds trust in God.
    Abu Bakr was frightened when pursuers came close to the cavern in which he and Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) were hiding during their flight, but the Prophet (pbuh) heartened him,
    "Grieve not. Allah is with us."
    A guard was kept at the Prophet's house in Madinah because of the danger that surrounded him but he had it withdrawn when the Quranic verse was revealed:
    "Allah will protect you from the people" (translation of Qur'an 5:67).

    I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people,
    As a light to the Gentiles,
    7 To open blind eyes,

    Any person who has the slightest idea of Islamic history knows that Mohammed did this in an undoubtful unquestionable way. The Arabs were desert nomads, the Persians passed them and didnt even bother conquering them. The Romans didnt bother conquering them also, they didnt even bother converting them to Christianity! They were in great darkness. They would go to war for the st**idest reason. One war lasted for fourty years, over what? Over a donkey. Can you imagine! Mohammed transfered this nation in less then 20 years to a nation that 100 years after his death would conquer half of the world and lead the world into the world of sciences and math.

    To bring out prisoners from the prison,
    Those who sit in darkness from the prison house.

    Obviously the Arab Pagans who worshiped more than 300 Gods were prisoners of there sins and ignorance. But also, if we take the verse in a literal aspect, we find that it also fits Mohammed!
    Abu Aziz, a witness who was a polytheist and POW during the Battle of Badr narrates, "They (the Muslims) ate bread and dates, and they would divide their food with me. They would prefer me to themselves, giving me the dates and eating the bread. I would return the dates to them, out of embarrasment of their actions, but they would insist that I eat them.
    And Mohammed freed hundreds of prisoners. Almost all prisoners that were taken.

    So metaphorically it fits him and literally it also fits him.


    8 I am the LORD, that is My name;
    And My glory I will not give to another,
    Nor My praise to carved images.
    9 Behold, the former things have come to pass,
    And new things I declare;
    Before they spring forth I tell you of them.”
    10 Sing to the LORD a new song,
    And His praise from the ends of the earth,
    You who go down to the sea, and all that is in it,
    You coastlands and you inhabitants of them!

    Here we see that the Lord is going to sing a new song, meaning a new language, what else other than Arabic? Why song? Listen to someone reciting the Quran and you will know exactly why. Is this a coinsidence? You say no. You see, the Quran was no inspirational revelation like the Holly Bible. It was a verbal revelation. Mohammed just repeats the words he hears.
    More explicitly, prophesies Isaiah "For with stammering lips, and another tongue, will he speak to this people" (Isaiah 28:11). This latter verse correctly describes the "stammering lips" of Prophet Muhammad reflecting the state of tension and concentration he went through at the time of revelation. Another related point is that the Qur'an was revealed in piece-meals over a span of twenty three years. It is interesting to compare this with Isaiah 28:10 whichspeaks of the same thing.
     
  2. Islam

    Islam Member

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    11 Let the wilderness and its cities lift up their voice,
    The villages that Kedar inhabits.

    Who is Kedar? Kedar is Ishmaels son. Where did he inhabit? Arabia, specifcally Mecca. And the Muslims lifted up their voices in Mecca when it was finally surrendered to them and they performed the Adhan or the Muslim prayer call from the highest peaks of Mecca.

    Let the inhabitants of Sela sing,
    Let them shout from the top of the mountains.
    12 Let them give glory to the LORD,

    The word Sela, can also mean rock. And if you observe the ritual of Muslims (especially during Hajj), you will see that cities (Makkah and Al-Madinah) lift up their voices and people shout and glorify Allah from top of mountains, especially Mt. Arafa. The rock is the rock that God sent to Adam from heaven, and it is located at the side of Kaba. As you know Muslim people make 7 tours around Kaba and kiss this rock while glorifying the Lord.

    And declare His praise in the coastlands.
    13 The LORD shall go forth like a mighty man;
    He shall stir up His zeal like a man of war.
    He shall cry out, yes, shout aloud;
    He shall prevail against His enemies.

    As we all know Mohammed prevailed against his enemies.

    14 “ I have held My peace a long time,
    I have been still and restrained Myself.
    Now I will cry like a woman in labor,
    I will pant and gasp at once.
    15 I will lay waste the mountains and hills,
    And dry up all their vegetation;
    I will make the rivers coastlands,
    And I will dry up the pools.

    Here God is talking about the deserts of Arabia. Mountains and hills of sand are not steady, they diminish with winds and others appear. We have also come to know that thousands of years ago, rivers did exist in Arabia, but now they dont.

    16 I will bring the blind by a way they did not know;
    I will lead them in paths they have not known.
    I will make darkness light before them,
    And crooked places straight.
    These things I will do for them,
    And not forsake them.

    As said above. God will make darkness light for them (the gentiles, the Arab pagans). They never had a prophet sent to them. They were lost. They used to kill baby girls, drink alcohol, gamble, they were drowning in ignorance.

    17 They shall be turned back,
    They shall be greatly ashamed,
    Who trust in carved images,
    Who say to the molded images,

    ‘ You are our gods.’

    Who else is this other than the Pagan Arabs who worshiped idols and used to say to them "you are our gods"! And they were turned back every time they tried invading Mohammed and they were defeated and were shamed in front of all the Arabs (the Quraish tribe). A great example of this is the battle of Badr which was the first battle between the Pagans and the Muslims. The pagans were thousands and the Muslims were almost 300 give or take and the Muslims defeated the Pagans! Can you imagine the shame one would endure if he has an army of thousands being defeated by 300? I dont have to describe it, its common sence. And they were shamed. They thought that now all the Arabs would mock them and there bussiness would be ruined. It was the first time in the history of the Quraysh tribe that they were defeated.
    Listen to what the Roman Emperor Heraclius says in a conversation with Abu Sufian (the leader of the Arab Pagans who fought and hated Mohammed) keep in mind Heraclius was a Christian:

    "Heraclius called them in the court and he had all the senior Roman dignitaries around him. He called for his translator who, translating Heraclius’ question said to them, “Who amongst you is closely related to that man who claims to be a Prophet?” Abu Sufyan replied, “I am the nearest relative (amongst the group) to him.”

    Heraclius said, “Bring him (Abu Sufyan) close to me and make his companions stay behind him.” Abu Sufyan added, “Heraclius told his translator to tell my companions that he wanted to put some questions to me regarding that man (The Prophet) and that if I told a lie they (my companions) should contradict me.” Abu Sufyan added, “By Allah! Had I not been afraid of my companions labeling me a liar, I would not have spoken the truth about the Prophet.

    The first question Heraclius asked me about was: “What is his family status among you?” I replied, “He belongs to a good (noble) family amongst us.” Heraclius further asked, “Has anybody else amongst you ever claimed the same (i.e., to be a Prophet) before him?” I replied, “No.” He said, “Was anybody amongst his ancestors a king?” I replied, “No.” Heraclius asked, “Do the nobles or the poor follow him?” I replied, “It is the poor who follow him.” He said, “Are his followers increasing or decreasing (day by day)?” I replied, “They are increasing.” He then asked, “Does anybody amongst those who embrace his religion become displeased and renounce the religion afterwards?” I replied, “No.” Heraclius said, “Have you ever accused him of telling lies before his claim (to be a Prophet)? I replied, “No.” Heraclius said, “Does he break his promises?” I replied, “No. We are in a truce with him but we do not know what he will do in it.” I could not find opportunity to say anything against him except that. Heraclius asked, “Have you ever had a war with him?” I replied, “Yes.” Then he said, “What were the outcome of the battles?” I replied, “Sometimes he was victorious and sometimes we.” Heraclius said, “What does he order you to do?” I said, “He tells us to worship Allah and Allah alone and not to worship anything along with Him, and to renounce all that our ancestors had said. He orders us to pray, to be chaste and to keep good relations with our kith and kin.”


    After this conversation it is reported that Heraclius said:

    “I asked you about his family and your reply was that he belonged to a very noble family. In fact, all the Apostles come from noble families amongst their respective peoples. I questioned you whether anybody amongst you ever claimed such a thing, your reply was in the negative. If your reply had been in the affirmative, I would have thought that this man was following the previous man’s statement. Then I asked you whether anyone of his ancestors was a king. Your reply was in the negative, and if it had been in the affirmative, I would have thought that this man wanted to take back his ancestral kingdom. I further asked whether he was ever accused of telling lies before he said what he said, and your reply was in the negative. So I wondered how a person who does not tell a lie about others could ever tell a lie about God. I then asked you whether the rich people followed him or the poor. You replied that it was the poor who followed him. And in fact all the Apostles have been followed by the poor in the beginning. Then I asked you whether his followers were increasing or decreasing. You replied that they were increasing, and in fact this is the way of true faith, till it is complete in all respects. I further asked whether there was anybody, who, after embracing his religion, became displeased and discarded his religion. Your reply was in the negative, and in fact this is (the sign of) true faith, when its light enters the hearts and mixes with them completely. I asked you whether he had ever betrayed. You replied in the negative and likewise Apostles never betray. Then I asked you what he ordered you to do. You replied that he ordered you to worship Allah and Allah alone and not to worship anything along with Him and forbade you to worship idols and ordered you to pray, to speak truth and to be chaste.

    If what you have said is true, he will very soon occupy this place underneath my feet and I knew it (from the scriptures) that he was going to appear but I did not know that he would be from you, and if I could reach him definitely, I would go immediately to meet him and if I were with him, I would certainly wash his feet.”


    In end, please tell me, if Mohammed was no prophet how could he have reacted this way when:
    Anas ibn Malik, the Prophet’s servant reports: “I was once walking with God’s Messenger, and he was wearing a thick robe made in Najran which had rough edges. A Bedouin caught up with him and strongly pulled him by his robe. I could see the side of the Prophet’s neck with a clear mark made by the edge of his robe as a result of the Bedouin’s pull. He then said to him: ‘Muhammad! Give an order for me to be given something of the money God has given you.’ The Prophet turned to him, smiled and gave instructions for a payment to be made to him.” (Related by Al-Bukhari, Muslim, Ahmad and Al-Baghawi).
     
  3. Faint

    Faint Well-Known Member

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    Mohammed was indeed a prophet, but we now know that he was in fact one of many human messengers from another planet ruled by advanced extraterrestrials. Jesus was one too, as were many other prophets throughout history. The aliens have recently come to a man called Rael to explain the actual truth of what happened. Details:
    "every life form on Earth was created by advanced human scientists from another planet with 25,000 years of scientific advances who, according to Raelians were originally called Elohim or "those who came from the sky", and that some forty prophets in Earth's history were sent by Elohim whose messages were misunderstood and distorted by humans, largely because of the difference in the level of scientific understanding between the advanced race and our primitive one."
     
  4. Buttercup

    Buttercup Veteran Member

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    I appreciate all the hard work you put into this thread but I have a problem with your very first line. All Abrahamic religions tell you to open your hearts and not be stubborn. So, which one is correct? How do we know for sure? And if we pick the wrong one, why should we go to hell for being stupid but sincerely devout?
     
  5. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    once again...cafeteria style use of non-muslim scripture

    not impressed.
     
  6. BFD_Zayl

    BFD_Zayl Well-Known Member

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    Deja vu:spam:
     
  7. !Fluffy!

    !Fluffy! Lacking Common Sense

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    :yes: , all over again...





    yawwwwnnnnn....
     
  8. Gunner

    Gunner Well-Known Member

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    All Abrahamic Religions tell you to open your hearts to God when investigating these things because when you don't, then things like prejudice and ego cloud your judgement and prevent you from seeing the words as they truly are.

    They'll all correct and we know for sure because of the impact the words have on us.

    Finally, you're not going to go to hell for "picking the wrong one" because they're all the same path to God, and if you're seriously devout, then you're even less likely to go to hell. Then again, Baha'is believe hell is a condition, a state of being, not a place. :D
     
  9. Islam

    Islam Member

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    You see this is because they all come from one source, God, Allah. In Islam, we believe that all religions preached by all prophets were Islam (meaning surrendering yourself and will to God all praise be to Him). God didnt send us three different religions. That wouldnt make any sence. He sended us one religion. They all lead to each other, step by step, and the final step is Islam. This is why Mohammed was no prophet of the Arabs, or the Jews or Hindus. He was sent for the entire humanity, because he is the final prophet. All that was preached which was from God since Adam to Jesus was a preperation for the Islam we have today, for the coming of Prophet Mohammed. Take Jesus for example, he said that he was only sent for the lost sheep of the house of Israel not the gentiles. Of course my Christian brothers are going to get mad, but he said it. Mohammed said that he was sent for all humanity, all the races and colours to unite them that we worship non but Allah and associate no partners with him. Such a simple concept, one God, far exhalted than to have partners, pure monotheism, yet many people reject it.
     
  10. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    God or gods didn't send any religion, PERIOD. All religions are man-made, including the Abrahamic religions.

    That you would think Judaism and Christianity as being as one religion, which is Islam, is only a matter of perspective, for only a Muslim would believe such thing. The first two religions being only transitional religions, is merely propaganda of Muslims.

    Christianity also believed Judasim, but not Islam, to be a transitional religion, which is why they include the pre-Christian Hebrew scriptures (ie. OT) to their bible. Judaism, on the other hand, see their religion being distinct from both Christianity and Islam, because they don't believe that Jesus is their messiah and Muhammad as a prophet.

    What you have written in the OP, Islam, is only interpretative evidence, not proof that Muhammad is a prophet, except to your own religion. You interpret the Hebrew scripture, such as from Isaiah, to promote prophet and your religion. Nothing more, nothing less.

    When I read Isaiah 42, I don't see a prophecy in this. I only see allegory of Israel and allegory of God.

    You had quoted the following:

    I see the reference to The LORD to be God. Normally when you read something "Lord" in capital, it is a reference to God. It is more like a comparison of God to a mighty man, who prevail against "His" enemies. Often, when a prophet (like Isaiah) for example, referred to God, they normally use the capital, to make distinct from ordinary prophet. That passage doesn't mention anywhere in Isaiah to a prophet.

    "My Servant" ...referred to Jacob/Israel, because in several chapters, the references of "Servant" and "Chosen One" are directly linked to the names Jacob or to Israel, which is also Jacob's name. Sometimes it mean Jacob himself, but sometimes it implied the land of Israel. Such as the following:

    Does this referred to Muhammad, Islam?

    Or here:
    And here:
    There are some more chapters, where the "chosen one" and "My servant" referred directly to Jacob/Israel, but there is a couple of rare section, where it is Isaiah or David is the "servant". It is probably safe to say that "My servant" in Isaiah 42, referred to Jacob/Israel, and not to Muhammad.

    You seemed to putting the God-status on Muhammad, when you put "The Lord", "He", "Him", "His", "My", "Me", etc to your prophet. If that is the case, then you are essentially being blasphemous.

    But not that I believe in any god. I am just looking at the way I would read any literature, trying to put them in proper context.
     
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  11. PHOTOTAKER

    PHOTOTAKER Well-Known Member

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    i injoy the discution of the scriptors by BYU professers it is about 30 min long however the frist 15 min is about captor 42 and the rest about 43... you might be interested...

    mp3 link here
     
  12. Islam

    Islam Member

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    gnostic dont ignore the rest of the verses. It says let the land where Kedar lives rejoice, that is Mecca. Its as simple as that.
    The parts you quoted were God speaking, thats obvious, but the other part was God speaking of someone sent to gentiles who worship idols (the Arabs at that time, who lived in the land of Kedar).
     
  13. Islam

    Islam Member

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    hey photo taker, im listening to it now thanks =)
     
  14. Islam

    Islam Member

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    And gnostic , God has millions of servants, it isnt just Jacoub or whoever.
     
  15. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Déjà vu a hundred times over.....................
     
  16. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    The following quotes, clearly linked to Jacob:

    Clearly here, this has to do with Israel, the land or kingdom and his people.

    Although, the following passage doesn't directly link to Jacob:
    …it does, however, talk of giving victory for the kingdom of Israel or Zion, if you care to read the rest of this chapter. So you can't ignore this, and say this referred to Muhammad, since he is not Israelite.

    Yes, you are correct there are many servants to God, as another passage of Isaiah in chapter 65.

    It goes on a bit longer, but I think you get the picture.

    Clearly the chosen ones and servants would come from the seeds of Jacob, particularly from that of Judah's lines. There's no mention of Ishmael's seeds here, nor that of Kedar. And there are no mentions in this chapter that Muhammad here would be a prophet that would come out of Kedar.

    So if Jacob is mentioned directly in 41, 43, 44, 45, and 49, then if you keep it in proper context, then surely it doesn't take genius to deduce that 42:1-2 referred to Jacob/Israel.
    This quote alone, doesn't make it Muhammad, so I think you should read the other chapters that I've quoted, and give consideration to those chapters, and not simply just that what you believe in, because Kedar doesn't make Muhammad, no matter how you look at it.

    I have not ignored Kedar, but you have surely ignored the previous chapter (41), and the ones that followed chapter 42 (43, 44, 45 and 49). By ignoring other chapters, then you are the one who is blinded and not being open as you have claimed to be.
     
  17. Islam

    Islam Member

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    Sure not all the book is about Mohammed. But he is mentioned. The new song, the land of kedar, the gentiles, the idol worshipers, it all relates to him.
     
  18. NoahideHiker

    NoahideHiker Religious Headbanger

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    The "servant" in Yeshayahu is named, by name no less than six times within the very frame work of the book of Yeshayahu...

    41:8 But you, Israel My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham, who loved Me,
    44:1 And now, hearken, Jacob My servant, and Israel whom I have chosen.
    44:21 Remember these, O Jacob; and Israel, for you are My servant; I formed you that you be a servant to Me, Israel, do not forget Me.
    45: 4. For the sake of My servant Jacob, and Israel My chosen one, and I called to you by your name; I surnamed you, yet you have not known Me.
    48:20 Leave Babylon, flee from the Chaldeans; with a voice of singing declare, tell this, publicize it to the end of the earth; say, "The Lord has redeemed His servant Jacob."
    49:3 And He said to me, "You are My servant, Israel, about whom I will boast."

    We also see Hashem's servant and how he is described in Yeshayahu 53. We see the Gentile nations abusing the servant and then they are stunned when the servant turns out to be G-d's chosen. Of course this is from the Jewish point of view so it may not be the same as your view. And that's cool
    too. Just pointing out what the Jewish POV says about the Jewish scriptures.
     
  19. Islam

    Islam Member

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    Its a matter of common sence, a vaig general statement such as my servant couldnt possibly just by applied to Jacoub peace be upon him. Techinically all worshipers of God are his servants especially his prophets.
     
  20. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    But if Jacob is mentioned explicitly from 41 to 45, except 42, as "My servant" then it would be natural to assume that the "My servant" Isaiah 42:1 would also be Jacob, because it follow the normal flow continuously through 5 chapters.

    Chapter 42, in regarding to Kedar:

    Here, it doesn't state that the "My servant" would come from Kedar. It speaks of the LORD, which I am assuming it is God, not a prophet, and certainly not Muhammad. (And it is certainly not Jesus too.)

    It speaks of Kedar's villages, but no prophet. It is also speak of coastline, and Mecca or Kedar, if you preferred is not on the coastline of the Red Sea. In fact, it doesn't speak of which coastline, so it is probably not the Red Sea.

    You are still making assumption to base your evidence. This evidence of your is hardly proof that it is Muhammad. :sorry1: Islam, but you need more than just the name Kedar to prove your case that Isaiah 42 has anything to do with Muhammad.
     
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