• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Problems with the Trinity

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
The trinity and making Jesus God has all kinds of problems. Here are three big ones:
  1. God is the father of Israel (Jer 31:19, Is 64:8, et. al.). Jesus is Israel's husband (Rev 21:9). If Jesus is God, he is both Israel's father and husband, i.e. God is incestuous.
  2. God is our (Christians) father. (Col 1:2). Jesus is our brother (Heb 2:11). If Jesus is God, he is both our father and our brother. That doesn't make any sense.
  3. Jesus is called the son of God some 48 times. If Jesus was God then he is his own father. Clearly unworkable.
Does God not understand simple family relationships? If Jesus is God that is a distinct possibility. However, if Jesus is not God, if there is not trinity, it all makes sense. The family relationships all fall into place, as does the rest of the redemption story. Making Jesus God, as tradition would say, makes the word of God of non-effect (Mark 7:13).
The Bahais scripture, in my view resolves this issue of trinity. There is nothing wrong with saying Jesus is God, and the Son with the following analogy which also is Biblical, and there is evidence that some early Christians understood it this way:
If God is likened to the Sun, and Jesus as a spotless Mirror facing the Sun, then the image of the Sun appears in the Mirror perfectly, so, if you look at the Mirror, you can say, you see the Sun. It would be also correct to say that is the Mirror. Likewise Jesus reflecting and showing the Image of God as a Mirror, so, you can say He is reflecting all the attributes of God in fullness. At the same time, you can say, He is a Prophet. A Prophet who is a spotless Mirror of God. Sonship is purely a spiritual relation with God. Likewise the Holy Spirit is another Mirror, reflecting image of God. So, in reality there is only One God, but His image is manifested in two other mirrors. So, there you have three Gods, who are One. Just as there is One Sun, reflected in two other mirrors, you would see three Suns; One is in heaven, two others in the Mirrors. Early Christians called Jesus, spotless Mirror of God.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Why didn't God tell us about Mohammad and Bahawhatever (I can't be arsed with that name) in the Jewish Bible? :rolleyes:
Exactly.
On the basis of fairness, if once accepts that, Jesus is son of God, even though He is not explicitly mentioned in the previous Religion, one should not reject Muhammad on the basis that, He is not mentioned explicitly in the previous Religion (the Christian Bible) .
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
The trinity and making Jesus God has all kinds of problems. Here are three big ones:
  1. God is the father of Israel (Jer 31:19, Is 64:8, et. al.). Jesus is Israel's husband (Rev 21:9). If Jesus is God, he is both Israel's father and husband, i.e. God is incestuous.
  2. God is our (Christians) father. (Col 1:2). Jesus is our brother (Heb 2:11). If Jesus is God, he is both our father and our brother. That doesn't make any sense.
  3. Jesus is called the son of God some 48 times. If Jesus was God then he is his own father. Clearly unworkable.
Does God not understand simple family relationships? If Jesus is God that is a distinct possibility. However, if Jesus is not God, if there is not trinity, it all makes sense. The family relationships all fall into place, as does the rest of the redemption story. Making Jesus God, as tradition would say, makes the word of God of non-effect (Mark 7:13).
My last name is Smith, my Brothers Bob and Ted are Smiths, but are also Bob and Ted. The Godhead is God, but it is composed of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
 

T.Ullenberg

New Member
"The trinity and making Jesus God has all kinds of problems. "

Fair question. Let's put aside the concept of the trinity for a moment.
God was alone. Just God. Many abilities in Himself but no way to express them and no one to fellowship with.

1. The first visible, per se, part that God projected out of Himself was the Logos, Word, Son.. maybe It looked like a pillar of Fire that Moses and Israel saw. Because the Word came forth out in a visible (to humans) way, we call it 'son'. Why humans? Because humans is what God decided to create to bring out His many facets. ie. : Angels would never understand healing.. Humans would.

2. We call God 'Father' because He alone is the only God. We say 'Father' as a reminder of this one God, the foundation, the absolute, the corner stone, the starting point.. which all things originate in Creation or allowed to exist.

3. God created Himself His Own permanent human body by creating the single cell embryo in Mary's womb. We call the permanent human body of God's : Jesus, which means Jehovah Savior. SpiritGod, who is the Father, stepped into that human body at Jesus's baptism and stepped back, per se, at Calvary.

4. God being alone wanted to expand Himself so He could have fellowship with Himself, projected in another way. He would be the Head, the expansion of Himself would be the Body. He created flesh to do this. Jesus is the Head, True Believers are the Body.. and you might say, 'God' is the Brain.. God is Spirit, so I call that SpiritGod who is the Father, for clarity sake.

5. At Pentecost in the Upperroom, That same SpiritGod expanded Himself more by sealing Souls of humans with His very Spirit.. The Head and the Body came on the scene. This Head was not stitched onto the Body like Frankenstein.. but was one.. (the Elect, or Sons of God, or Word of God returning to Their Father.. the Elect are simply part of that original Logos that God projected out of Himself.. They are the predestined 'Billboards' of God's Word to the world.. like Adam, Abraham, Disciples... Jesus 'came to get His Own'. He also came to allow whosoever will to be saved..)

6. So the Father is the Spirit who created Jesus body in Mary. The son is the permanent human body God made for Himself. Jesus flesh was not Eternal because it had a beginning. SpiritGod is the only 'Thing' eternal because He had no beginning.. and no ending. That Is the only Eternal Life there is. One God expanding Himself in order to have Fellowship and express His abilities. Jesus Soul was born with no unbelief. That is the only difference in Him and us. Jesus did not need a 'new birth'.

7. God would never have been so precise for thousands of years to Israel by clearly saying He is One God.. then admonished them for not recognizing Jesus. They only rejected Jesus because of their interpretation of what the Messiah would be and accomplish.
God is One.. but expanding. Jesus was NOT God's ONLY son.. He was God's only BEGOTTEN son.. There are many Sons of God as Scripture truthfully says. Jesus was/is the Head of the Body.

8. One last point I had to ask myself :
If a man is standing on the side walk with his son, and sees his house catch fire with his wife inside.. Is he going to say, "Son, run in there and get your mother."? I quickly answered myself with a clear, No! The husband would run in the burning house himself to save his wife!!
So is it with God. He did 'not' send his boy to die, that is a pitiful accusation of God's Character.. God came Himself.. He made Himself a human body, created by His Own Word, the Logos in flesh, SpiritGod in a human,.. and He Personally came to redeem BACK His Own.. or birth them back to Himself from the flames of inherited unbelief caused by the first Adam, who is our example of the Image, visible image to human eyes, of One God.
We are made in the image one God.. one person with many facets. God expanding Himself.. Head and Body.. The Logos Word in flesh.. God will never again be alone..
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
One would wander why there is no such an explicit and clear teaching in old testament that, the Father God, has one Son God with the name of Jesus. Why God the Father did not introduce His son in old testament?
Yes, the problem remains that there is a lack of support from the Old Testament for the Trinity. The best that may be honestly interpreted from the OT is a description of the attributes of one indivisible God that may be intepreted as manifestation of the Holy Spirit. The interpretation of prophesy and other references to the Son of God in the Old Testament have no basis for describing Jesus Christ as the incarnate God as the Son of God.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
My last name is Smith, my Brothers Bob and Ted are Smiths, but are also Bob and Ted. The Godhead is God, but it is composed of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

The problem again is describing The Trinity as God composed of three distinct separate 'persons' (Gods) is fundamentally contrary to everything in the OT. God is ONE indivisible God.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
People's interpretation?!? Not relevant. I will take it to the problem of the doctrine and dogma related to the Trinity in traditional Christianity. The Trinity is deniable based on the Old Testament scriptures. It is based on Roman theology.
Corrected
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Yes, Jesus was of God. So are we:
That was not my point. Jesus said that he and the Father are One, which is something I don't claim for myself.

We know that the first century Church believed that Jesus and God were One in some way, but that wasn't really spelled out as far as what that specifically involved. Thus, there were disagreements along that line that show up in the second century but probably existed even before then. Even the basic issue of the Law was hotly debated, thus the Ebionites split off as another faction.

This issue became even more hotly debated with "heretical" groups claiming they had the right beliefs and the right books to match, so the Church had to bite the bullet and try to come up with what they believed was right. The Bible you quote from is one byproduct of this decision, btw, and the Apostle's and Nicene Creeds were another. I personally don't claim that they're right, but that what the Church did is at least understandable under these circumstances.

And if you believe in Jesus' words that he will guide his Church, and believe in the power of the Holy Spirit given at Pentecost, and believe Paul was right when he insisted that the Church must be "one body", and then also believe that the Bible you're using that was selected by that Church is the right one to use, then maybe respect the basis for the Trinitarian approach even if you don't fully agree with it.

IOW, either the Church is being guided or it's not, and if it's not then there are some very serious implications for that.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
The problem again is describing The Trinity as God composed of three distinct separate 'persons' (Gods) is fundamentally contrary to everything in the OT. God is ONE indivisible God.
OK, try this. God is a distinct one of a kind single omnipotent eternal being with three points of consciousness, unfathomable by humans who can only grasp a single point of consciousness in a being. God is one indivisible God, I do not contend otherwise. I would suggest that there are OT scriptures that prove your contention wrong, I will provide them for you in a separate post.
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
Sadly, the church that is controlling things today is not the church that Jesus started. It was taken over around the third century by Pagan beliefs. Many church teachings today do not match the Bible.
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
Do you think a cockroach can understand how humans think and operate? Well humans have the same problem understanding how God thinks and operates.
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
The problem with the Trinity idea is that it limits God forever to three persons. God actually wants to adopt thousands or millions of adopted children into His family. They will be brothers to Jesus and have the same rights and powers as Jesus. "God" will then consist of millions of persons, not just three. The false Trinity belief forever hides this from people and makes them think they have no chance of becoming part of God's family. A big lie started by Satan and spread by his false church that took over the name Christian but really teaches Pagan ideas.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Sadly, the church that is controlling things today is not the church that Jesus started. It was taken over around the third century by Pagan beliefs. Many church teachings today do not match the Bible.
Many denominations teach things not found in the Bible. There is only one Church, and it not any denomination In discussions of this type I am reminded of Monty Pythonś ¨Life of Brian ´ When Brians sandals are thrown off as he is being crucified, one follower grabs the left one, and begins the one true church of the left sandal, another follower grabs the right one and begins the one true church of the right sandal.

Denominations major in minors, many times to prove that they have the true truth, and that they are special because of it. They will tell you you must go to Church on saturday, to be true, or believe in a latter day prophet, or believe Christ was crucified on a pole instead of a Cross. None are Biblical, some are irrelevant, some are dangerous.
The Church, the only Church, is the universal Body of Christ, those who are recognized by Jesus Christ as saved members of his Church, He decides if they are adhering to the true Faith, not you or I.

I am a denomination of one. I read the instructions and requirements for membership in The Church, in the Bible, and through the guidance of The Spirit. I am the priest of my denomination. I need no boards, Conferences, Bishops, Popes, or non Biblical prophets to tell me what to believe, the Bible and the Spirit are my instructors.

The Bible tells me what I must do to be saved, to become a member of THE CHURCH, I accept the instruction or reject it.

In the end I will be judged as me. I will not be judged in a denominational group, or as a single member of a denomination. I will be judged as to whether my sins are covered by the blood of Christ, whether his perfect life, stands in place of my sinful one.

If I have been a great believer and teacher in a chosen denomination, adhered to all the rules, said the right buzzwords, pointed out al the error of those who don´t have my denominations truth, but have not been saved by the blood and pure Gace of The Lord Jesus Christ, my exalted denominational life will mean absolutely nothing, and will only prove that I have never been a member of The Church.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
That was not my point. Jesus said that he and the Father are One, which is something I don't claim for myself.
Perhaps you should consider yourself one with God. I know that according to man's wisdom it is heretical to say such a thing, but you can't ignore the scriptures.

John 17:21,

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
But does it really mean two things are literally one and the same thing?

The scriptures should be taken literally wherever and whenever possible. They simply mean what they say and say what they mean. However if a particular verse doesn't make sense when taken literally it is time to look towards figures of speech which are legitimate grammatical constructs used to emphasize something. I could say, "the ground is dry" and you would understand I mean to say there has been no rain for a while. Saying the ground is dry is true to fact. However, if I were to say, "the ground is thirsty" it would make you take note and consider more deeply what I'm saying. I would be saying that to mean it has not rained for a really long long time. Of course the ground never actually gets thirsty, but I would say that to emphasize just how dry the ground really is. This particular figure of speech is called "personification" which is giving a non-living thing (the ground) a human characteristic.

1Cor 3:6-8,

6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8 Now he that planteth (Paul) and he that watereth (Apollos) are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.​

These verses are just like Jesus saying he was one with God. Was Paul and Apollos actually one and the same person? Of course not. God is simply telling us that Paul and Apollos were united in their purpose and goals. They worked together as if they were one, but they are not literally one person. Saying one or more people are "one" is a very common expression used in our everyday language.

Now Jesus saying he was one with God is the epitome of two entities acting as one. Jesus followed his father's will to the letter. Never once did Jesus do or say anything that was not what God wanted him to do or say. Jesus could have disobeyed at any point in his life, but he didn't. Had he done so, we'd still be waiting for redemption. But because the man Christ Jesus loved us poor sinners so much, he subjugated his will to that of God's will in all points. I think the epitome of that is to be found in Luke, just before Jesus, because of his love for us, was about to be crucified.

Luke 22:42,

Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
Jesus obviously wasn't thrilled about his upcoming horrible torture and death. Who would? He asked God if there was some other way to redeem us. Of course, there wasn't so Jesus just said, "OK God. I don't want to do this, but It doesn't matter what I want. The important thing is what you want so I'll do this." What other man that ever lived would have done that? Not me, that's for sure! I can't imagine the love Jesus had for millions of people, sinners, such that he was willing to go through with God's plan. Jesus, like the rest of us, had free will, but he followed God's will instead of his own.

Jesus could have taken the devil up on his offer of giving him all the kingdoms of this world when he tempted him in the desert. Like I said, he had free will. It must have been tempting. What would you have said to such an offer? I know myself well enough to admit I may have accepted the offer. That, among other reasons, is why I wasn't your savior.

I'm often told I disrespect Jesus by saying he was a man, and not a god or god-man. Making Jesus God actually cheapens and demeans his life as far as I'm concerned. What's the big deal for God to obey himself? What's the big deal for God to believe Himself that He would raise Himself from the dead? Just consider those questions for one minute. But if Jesus was a man, tempted in all points as you and I (btw, God can't be tempted), then his obedience and belief go through the stratosphere. Far from disrespecting Jesus, I believe I see him in a far greater light than simply saying he was God.

Jesus, like Adam, was born with innocent blood because of the virgin birth. Like the first Adam, Jesus too could have disobeyed at any time. Obviously, and thankfully, he didn't follow in the footsteps of that first man. Had he done so, his blood would have been polluted and he would no longer have been the lamb without blemish which our redemption needed. He was a man, but a man beyond any man that has ever lived! He loved us with the same love God loves us. He is the only man that has ever done that. The rest of us fall short in that regard. We may try, but we inherited Adam's polluted blood, so we are doomed from birth. That's why we needed Jesus.

I know I didn't respond to all your well made points, but hopefully this will be at least a start.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
OK, try this. God is a distinct one of a kind single omnipotent eternal being with three points of consciousness, unfathomable by humans who can only grasp a single point of consciousness in a being. God is one indivisible God, I do not contend otherwise. I would suggest that there are OT scriptures that prove your contention wrong, I will provide them for you in a separate post.

Does not work, because the Trinity defines God as three distinct 'persons;' God the Father. God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost.

Judaism, Islam and the Baha'i Faith describe God as One indivisible God without exceptions.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
That was not my point. Jesus said that he and the Father are One, which is something I don't claim for myself.

We know that the first century Church believed that Jesus and God were One in some way, but that wasn't really spelled out as far as what that specifically involved. Thus, there were disagreements along that line that show up in the second century but probably existed even before then. Even the basic issue of the Law was hotly debated, thus the Ebionites split off as another faction.

This issue became even more hotly debated with "heretical" groups claiming they had the right beliefs and the right books to match, so the Church had to bite the bullet and try to come up with what they believed was right. The Bible you quote from is one byproduct of this decision, btw, and the Apostle's and Nicene Creeds were another. I personally don't claim that they're right, but that what the Church did is at least understandable under these circumstances.

And if you believe in Jesus' words that he will guide his Church, and believe in the power of the Holy Spirit given at Pentecost, and believe Paul was right when he insisted that the Church must be "one body", and then also believe that the Bible you're using that was selected by that Church is the right one to use, then maybe respect the basis for the Trinitarian approach even if you don't fully agree with it.

IOW, either the Church is being guided or it's not, and if it's not then there are some very serious implications for that.

This is an OK pragmatic approximation for what the Roman Church did, but that does not help with a satisfactory explanation that justifies the Trinity that made Christianity a Roman religion, and in contradiction with its roots the Old Testament.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Does not work, because the Trinity defines God as three distinct 'persons;' God the Father. God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost.

Judaism, Islam and the Baha'i Faith describe God as One indivisible God without exceptions.
I am not defending the trinity as promulgated, I believe, at the Nicean Council. I am not a trinitarian.

I am describing the Godhead as found in the Bible. God s a single being. God . Within that single being, which is omnipotent, and omni present, are three individual points of consciousness, always connected, always in communication, one being in control of the other two. They fulfill different purposes. The being is God Because there is no earthly example of this only means that God is above all we can know by example. To say that John Smith and all other humans have a single point of consciousness, and so God has to as well is attempting to tell God what he must be. It works the other way, God tells us what he is.
 
Top