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Problems with the Trinity

rrobs

Well-Known Member
The trinity and making Jesus God has all kinds of problems. Here are three big ones:
  1. God is the father of Israel (Jer 31:19, Is 64:8, et. al.). Jesus is Israel's husband (Rev 21:9). If Jesus is God, he is both Israel's father and husband, i.e. God is incestuous.
  2. God is our (Christians) father. (Col 1:2). Jesus is our brother (Heb 2:11). If Jesus is God, he is both our father and our brother. That doesn't make any sense.
  3. Jesus is called the son of God some 48 times. If Jesus was God then he is his own father. Clearly unworkable.
Does God not understand simple family relationships? If Jesus is God that is a distinct possibility. However, if Jesus is not God, if there is not trinity, it all makes sense. The family relationships all fall into place, as does the rest of the redemption story. Making Jesus God, as tradition would say, makes the word of God of non-effect (Mark 7:13).
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
The trinity and making Jesus God has all kinds of problems. Here are three big ones:
  1. God is the father of Israel (Jer 31:19, Is 64:8, et. al.). Jesus is Israel's husband (Rev 21:9). If Jesus is God, he is both Israel's father and husband, i.e. God is incestuous.
  2. God is our (Christians) father. (Col 1:2). Jesus is our brother (Heb 2:11). If Jesus is God, he is both our father and our brother. That doesn't make any sense.
  3. Jesus is called the son of God some 48 times. If Jesus was God then he is his own father. Clearly unworkable.
Does God not understand simple family relationships? If Jesus is God that is a distinct possibility. However, if Jesus is not God, if there is not trinity, it all makes sense. The family relationships all fall into place, as does the rest of the redemption story. Making Jesus God, as tradition would say, makes the word of God of non-effect (Mark 7:13).

There is a trinity and there is not a trinity. It depends on how you want to relate to Christ. Personal preferences rather than criticizing other people's interpretation of scripture. If your salvation depended on scripture, you missing the point.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
The trinity and making Jesus God has all kinds of problems. Here are three big ones:
  1. God is the father of Israel (Jer 31:19, Is 64:8, et. al.). Jesus is Israel's husband (Rev 21:9). If Jesus is God, he is both Israel's father and husband, i.e. God is incestuous.
  2. God is our (Christians) father. (Col 1:2). Jesus is our brother (Heb 2:11). If Jesus is God, he is both our father and our brother. That doesn't make any sense.
  3. Jesus is called the son of God some 48 times. If Jesus was God then he is his own father. Clearly unworkable.
Does God not understand simple family relationships? If Jesus is God that is a distinct possibility. However, if Jesus is not God, if there is not trinity, it all makes sense. The family relationships all fall into place, as does the rest of the redemption story. Making Jesus God, as tradition would say, makes the word of God of non-effect (Mark 7:13).
I think it's all in one's head.

I'm a husband, a man, a father, grandfather and a son. You just have to understand relationships. Not to mention I am a spirit that has a soul and lives in the body.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
There is a trinity and there is not a trinity. It depends on how you want to relate to Christ. Personal preferences rather than criticizing other people's interpretation of scripture. If your salvation depended on scripture, you missing the point.

Your Trinity dogma was institutedat the Council of Nicaea, convened by the Roman Emperor Constantine, who was the 7th head of the beast of Revelation 17, and also the "beast with two horns like a lamb" of Revelation 13. It's imagery is the sign of the cross, the image given by the "dragon" (Sol Invictus) to Constantine. It is part and parcel of the mark of the beast, for which one will be seeking their own death if so marked (Revelation 9:6).
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
There is a trinity and there is not a trinity. It depends on how you want to relate to Christ. Personal preferences rather than criticizing other people's interpretation of scripture. If your salvation depended on scripture, you missing the point.

People's interpretation?!? Not relevant. I will take it to the problem of the doctrine and dogma related to the Trinity in traditional Christianity. The Trinity is undeniable based on the Old Testament scriptures. It is based on Roman theology.
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Your Trinity dogma was institutedat the Council of Nicaea, convened by the Roman Emperor Constantine, who was the 7th head of the beast of Revelation 17, and also the "beast with two horns like a lamb" of Revelation 13. It's imagery is the sign of the cross, the image given by the "dragon" (Sol Invictus) to Constantine. It is part and parcel of the mark of the beast, for which one will be seeking their own death if so marked (Revelation 9:6).

The trinity is true and not true. It depends on how you want to relate to Christ.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
There is a trinity and there is not a trinity. It depends on how you want to relate to Christ. Personal preferences rather than criticizing other people's interpretation of scripture. If your salvation depended on scripture, you missing the point.
God never says anything about not criticizing false beliefs. Quite the opposite actually.

Besides, I'm not criticizing people. Nobody can go beyond what they are taught. The trinity has been taught for 2,000 years, of which a good portion of that time would mean death for anybody who didn't believe the lie. It's the doctrine I denounce, not the poor people who have been duped.

What if I wanted to relate to Christ by committing murder, rape, and robbery? No, my friend, there is the truth and there is the not truth. Can't have it both ways.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
God never says anything about not criticizing false beliefs. Quite the opposite actually.

Besides, I'm not criticizing people. Nobody can go beyond what they are taught. The trinity has been taught for 2,000 years, of which a good portion of that time would mean death for anybody who didn't believe the lie. It's the doctrine I denounce, not the poor people who have been duped.

What if I wanted to relate to Christ by committing murder, rape, and robbery? No, my friend, there is the truth and there is the not truth. Can't have it both ways.

The trinity is true and not true. Depends on how you view your relationship with Christ.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
I think it's all in one's head.

I'm a husband, a man, a father, grandfather and a son. You just have to understand relationships. Not to mention I am a spirit that has a soul and lives in the body.
Hopefully you are not your daughter's husband, your own father, your own grandson, or your own son.

I don't mean to be critical of you or anybody, but at some point don't we need to make sense out of the scriptures? Mixing up the two main characters (God and Jesus) certainly doesn't do much for making the scriptures understandable. It's so simple to say God was the father of Jesus. Even Webster understood what a father is and what a son is.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Hopefully you are not your daughter's husband, your own father, your own grandson, or your own son.

I don't mean to be critical of you or anybody, but at some point don't we need to make sense out of the scriptures? Mixing up the two main characters (God and Jesus) certainly doesn't do much for making the scriptures understandable. It's so simple to say God was the father of Jesus. Even Webster understood what a father is and what a son is.

OK... but to make it simpler...

Man is a three part being with different names for each one. Spirit, soul and body. Each has a different purpose and/or different materiality yet the same person.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
The trinity and making Jesus God has all kinds of problems. Here are three big ones:
  1. God is the father of Israel (Jer 31:19, Is 64:8, et. al.). Jesus is Israel's husband (Rev 21:9). If Jesus is God, he is both Israel's father and husband, i.e. God is incestuous.
  2. God is our (Christians) father. (Col 1:2). Jesus is our brother (Heb 2:11). If Jesus is God, he is both our father and our brother. That doesn't make any sense.
  3. Jesus is called the son of God some 48 times. If Jesus was God then he is his own father. Clearly unworkable.
Does God not understand simple family relationships? If Jesus is God that is a distinct possibility. However, if Jesus is not God, if there is not trinity, it all makes sense. The family relationships all fall into place, as does the rest of the redemption story. Making Jesus God, as tradition would say, makes the word of God of non-effect (Mark 7:13).
No wonder you're confused. You don't even understand the basics of the Trinity concept. The Christian Trinity consists of three Persons - the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They are not the same Persons. Jesus would be God the Son, the second Person of the Trinity. The Father would be the first Person of the Trinity. It is the Father who is commonly referred to in the Hebrew Bible, although there are parts interpreted as referencing the Trinity. So, no - Trinitarianism doesn't teach that Jesus was his own father or that he prayed to himself or whatever.

shield_trinity.png
 

Heffalump

New Member
The trinity and making Jesus God has all kinds of problems. Here are three big ones:
  1. God is the father of Israel (Jer 31:19, Is 64:8, et. al.). Jesus is Israel's husband (Rev 21:9). If Jesus is God, he is both Israel's father and husband, i.e. God is incestuous.
  2. God is our (Christians) father. (Col 1:2). Jesus is our brother (Heb 2:11). If Jesus is God, he is both our father and our brother. That doesn't make any sense.
  3. Jesus is called the son of God some 48 times. If Jesus was God then he is his own father. Clearly unworkable.
Does God not understand simple family relationships? If Jesus is God that is a distinct possibility. However, if Jesus is not God, if there is not trinity, it all makes sense. The family relationships all fall into place, as does the rest of the redemption story. Making Jesus God, as tradition would say, makes the word of God of non-effect (Mark 7:13).

Hi, I'm new to the forum. There is yet another way to view the trinity. We could be arguable composed of the trinity as well. We have a soul, spirit and flesh at the same time. With this line of thought think about what and how the spirit works. The spirit is the link between the flesh and the soul. It is through the spirit that we might hear or be moved in some fashion by God. If God might be representative of the soul, and Jesus representative of the flesh, the Holy Ghost might be representative of the working connection between flesh and spirit. Perhaps Jesus was indeed a needed connection between the father and his creation. Perhaps for a better connection between his creation and himself. So we also have flesh, spirit and a soul. Thus a trinity exist within us. Not the Holy Trinity but a similar trinity. Moreover, Translations are essential. We speak of God who is soul before flesh and before the need of spirit. So if he was to create the need for flesh, would his creation be considered his child much like we would consider a house we rehab our pet child? Thus to converse between flesh and soul, the spirit would need to come into existence. Just some thoughts.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
No wonder you're confused. You don't even understand the basics of the Trinity concept. The Christian Trinity consists of three Persons - the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They are not the same Persons. Jesus would be God the Son, the second Person of the Trinity. The Father would be the first Person of the Trinity. It is the Father who is commonly referred to in the Hebrew Bible, although there are parts interpreted as referencing the Trinity. So, no - Trinitarianism doesn't teach that Jesus was his own father or that he prayed to himself or whatever.

shield_trinity.png
Trying to discuss a trinity is impossible. Even the most ardent of Trinity scholars will freely admit it can't be understood, so let's just say Jesus is not God. He is the son of God.

That diagram makes no logical sense whatsoever. Just think about it with a clear mind for one minute.

Maybe trinity doesn't teach outright that Jesus is his own father, but if he is God and God is his father, then he is absolutely his own father. I don't know how, but somehow they dazzle people into not seeing the insanity of that doctrine.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
Hi, I'm new to the forum. There is yet another way to view the trinity. We could be arguable composed of the trinity as well. We have a soul, spirit and flesh at the same time. With this line of thought think about what and how the spirit works. The spirit is the link between the flesh and the soul. It is through the spirit that we might hear or be moved in some fashion by God. If God might be representative of the soul, and Jesus representative of the flesh, the Holy Ghost might be representative of the working connection between flesh and spirit. Perhaps Jesus was indeed a needed connection between the father and his creation. Perhaps for a better connection between his creation and himself. So we also have flesh, spirit and a soul. Thus a trinity exist within us. Not the Holy Trinity but a similar trinity. Moreover, Translations are essential. We speak of God who is soul before flesh and before the need of spirit. So if he was to create the need for flesh, would his creation be considered his child much like we would consider a house we rehab our pet child? Thus to converse between flesh and soul, the spirit would need to come into existence. Just some thoughts.
First of all, glad to meet you here. I think you will find yourself quite welcome.

Did you notice all the scripture I used to prove my point? Perhaps you could address some of those scriptures and even add some of your own that prove the things you say.

Sorry, but I'm a real stickler on using scriptures and nothing but the scriptures as my sole source of faith and practice.

God bless...
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
Did you notice all the scripture I used to prove my point? Perhaps you could address some of those scriptures and even add some of your own that prove the things you say.

Sorry, but I'm a real stickler on using scriptures and nothing but the scriptures as my sole source of faith and practice.
The trinity is true and not true. It depends on how you want to relate to Christ.
White is black and black is white. I'm you and you're me. Up is down and down is up. Right is left and left is right. I'll give you a million dollars and you'll give me a million dollars. Do you need my address to send the money? I'll be glad to give it to you.

I'm just goofing around! Don't take it serious. Or, maybe you should take it serious and rethink your illogical position. I mean no offense, but just look at what you said. There is nowhere in the scriptures that even remotely resembles what you said.

God bless and God don't bless you...:)
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
White is black and black is white. I'm you and you're me. Up is down and down is up. Right is left and left is right. I'll give you a million dollars and you'll give me a million dollars. Do you need my address to send the money? I'll be glad to give it to you.

I'm just goofing around! Don't take it serious. Or, maybe you should take it serious and rethink your illogical position. I mean no offense, but just look at what you said. There is nowhere in the scriptures that even remotely resembles what you said.

God bless and God don't bless you...:)

Shrugs. Negativity clouds understanding of multiple truths from different perspectives. Trinity is both true and false depending on how you want a relationship with Jesus.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
Shrugs. Negativity clouds understanding of multiple truths from different perspectives. Trinity is both true and false depending on how you want a relationship with Jesus.
Sounds good, but it's not even close to scriptural truth. Heck, it's not ever close to natural existence. I'm either my own father or my father is my father. It can't be both ways. Of course if we throw out any sense of logic, all you say could be true. I guess it depends on whether someone wants to be logical or illogical. Nonetheless, truth is truth and lies are lies.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Sounds good, but it's not even close to scriptural truth. Heck, it's not ever close to natural existence. I'm either my own father or my father is my father. It can't be both ways. Of course if we throw out any sense of logic, all you say could be true. I guess it depends on whether someone wants to be logical or illogical. Nonetheless, truth is truth and lies are lies.

Did you want me to explain?

I can disagree you arent a son and father at the same time but unless you clarify, that's all it is. Doesn't change that you Are a father and son. Depends on the relationship you have with your son or father.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
Did you want me to explain?

I can disagree you arent a son and father at the same time but unless you clarify, that's all it is. Doesn't change that you Are a father and son. Depends on the relationship you have with your son or father.
A father and a son are two distinct individuals, not somehow two people in one. Otherwise words and our concept of relationships are meaningless. That's why I keep on saying that making Jesus God makes the redemption story meaningless.

What is wrong with saying, as the scriptures do, that God sent His son, Jesus, to redeem us? Why does Jesus need to be God? Especially when the scriptures say that sin came by man and so does redemption from that sin (1 Cor 15:21). Never once does it say a god or god-man redeemed us. There is no shortage of pagan religions that make that claim, but nothing in the scriptures say anything at all like that.

By the way, have you ever noticed that in Revelations there is one throne for God and another for Jesus? No mention at all of a throne for the Holy Spirit. Poor guy must have been forgotten.
 
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