Problems with the Trinity

[rrobs]

Unveiled Artist, Healer

I'm curious. What kind of healer are you? Healing is certainly a noble endeavor. I applaud you for even thinking about it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

A father and a son are two distinct individuals, not somehow two people in one. Otherwise words and our concept of relationships are meaningless. That's why I keep on saying that making Jesus God makes the redemption story meaningless.

What is wrong with saying, as the scriptures do, that God sent His son, Jesus, to redeem us? Why does Jesus need to be God? Especially when the scriptures say that sin came by man and so does redemption from that sin (1 Cor 15:21). Never once does it say a god or god-man redeemed us. There is no shortage of pagan religions that make that claim, but nothing in the scriptures say anything at all like that.

By the way, have you ever noticed that in Revelations there is one throne for God and another for Jesus? No mention at all of a throne for the Holy Spirit. Poor guy must have been forgotten.

You are a father and a son -depending on the perspective of whatever you talk about-face

You are a father to your son
You are a son to your father

You are both father and son --only in that person relates to you-. It's based on that person's perception. You are just a human being. External factors make you one and another depending on who you are comparing yourself to.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I'm curious. What kind of healer are you? Healing is certainly a noble endeavor. I applaud you for even thinking about it.

My religion? (I'm on default mode so I can't see people's religions and stats) I had art or creativity to heal as in take care of my physical, mental, and spiritual needs etc. Creativity to me is like scripture to a Christian. I can't live without freedom of expression.

 

[metis]

The trinity and making Jesus God has all kinds of problems.

The problem is the above is not what the Trinity is about as it does not posit Jesus as being the Father (God). The belief is that Jesus is of God in a way that's not fully understandable, which is why in Catholicism it's commonly called "the mystery of the Trinity".

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Trying to discuss a trinity is impossible. Even the most ardent of Trinity scholars will freely admit it can't be understood, so let's just say Jesus is not God. He is the son of God.

That diagram makes no logical sense whatsoever. Just think about it with a clear mind for one minute.

Maybe trinity doesn't teach outright that Jesus is his own father, but if he is God and God is his father, then he is absolutely his own father. I don't know how, but somehow they dazzle people into not seeing the insanity of that doctrine.

It makes sense to me. You just don't want to understand it. The Son is not the Father so Jesus was not his own father.

 

[shunyadragon]

Hi, I'm new to the forum. There is yet another way to view the trinity. We could be arguable composed of the trinity as well. We have a soul, spirit and flesh at the same time. With this line of thought think about what and how the spirit works. The spirit is the link between the flesh and the soul. It is through the spirit that we might hear or be moved in some fashion by God. If God might be representative of the soul, and Jesus representative of the flesh, the Holy Ghost might be representative of the working connection between flesh and spirit. Perhaps Jesus was indeed a needed connection between the father and his creation. Perhaps for a better connection between his creation and himself. So we also have flesh, spirit and a soul. Thus a trinity exist within us. Not the Holy Trinity but a similar trinity. Moreover, Translations are essential. We speak of God who is soul before flesh and before the need of spirit. So if he was to create the need for flesh, would his creation be considered his child much like we would consider a house we rehab our pet child? Thus to converse between flesh and soul, the spirit would need to come into existence. Just some thoughts.

Simply, I do not accept the parallel or comparison. What you describe are not three equal entities, and comparing our identity and nature with God' made up fo Gods is not a valid comparisons.

 

[shunyadragon]

The problem is the above is not what the Trinity is about as it does not posit Jesus as being the Father (God). The belief is that Jesus is of God in a way that's not fully understandable, which is why in Catholicism it's commonly called "the mystery of the Trinity".

I do not believe that the Roman Church describes Jesus Christ as being of God in describing the Trinity. Describing it as a mystery is a dodge.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@rrobs

Trinity: A relationship between three
Duality: relationship between two
Singularity: One unit

Jesus christ, the holy spirit, and the creator are related to each other. They have a relationship with each other.

The creator is spirit over the people. Spirit of live and giver of life. The Holy spirit. Jesus is the savior and with gods spirit, he fulfills his mission of salvation. All three things Creator (source), spirit (action), and jesus (intermediary) share one thing in common to the practitioner.

This is the trinity. Those who cannot separate the three things above and consider them one entity are trinitarians. This isnt a wrong way to view the three. It just means because they are all important, they dont separate it.

Nontrinatrians are more literal in their approach. The creator has his own nature. The son his own. The spirit of god its own. They separaate these three things because they are literally not each other. The Creator isnt the Savior. The Savior isnt the creators spirit. They have their own natures thats why the bible uses prepositions to identify the relationship between the two without making them the same.

Some people rather give each person their own rights in worship. Nothing wrong with that.

They are both right. It depends on how one wants to relate to the creator. He can relate and say jesus is the father because he doesnt see the two one over the other. Or he can see them as separate and still owe the same respect as the trinitarian.

It doesnt matter. The argument is old.

 

[rrobs]

You are a father and a son -depending on the perspective of whatever you talk about-face

You are a father to your son
You are a son to your father

You are both father and son --only in that person relates to you-. It's based on that person's perception. You are just a human being. External factors make you one and another depending on who you are comparing yourself to.

Well, no matter how you look at it, the son of his father is not his father. Two people in every sense of the word. Not two (or three) in one, but two, period.

 

[rrobs]

My religion? (I'm on default mode so I can't see people's religions and stats) I had art or creativity to heal as in take care of my physical, mental, and spiritual needs etc. Creativity to me is like scripture to a Christian. I can't live without freedom of expression.

I can understand that.

BTW, I wasn't referring to your religion. I understand that healers are not necessarily connected with religion. Take care...I'll pray for your physical, mental, and spiritual needs. Then again, I don't really have to. The scriptures are clear that God has already done all of that. We just need to believe and receive. Let's just say I'll pray for your believing. You could send me a few good vibes also!

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Well, no matter how you look at it, the son of his father is not his father. Two people in every sense of the word. Not two (or three) in one, but two, period.

Trinity just means relationship between three things.

Prove jesus and god dont have a relationship with each other, then you disprove the trinity.

If trinitarians believed jesus is god, they would not be trinitarians.

 

[rrobs]

The problem is the above is not what the Trinity is about as it does not posit Jesus as being the Father (God). The belief is that Jesus is of God in a way that's not fully understandable, which is why in Catholicism it's commonly called "the mystery of the Trinity".

Yes, Jesus was of God. So are we:

1John 5:19,

[And] we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
​

Isn't that wonderful? And it fits perfectly with 1 John 4:17,

1John 4:17,

Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
​

Whatever you think Jesus is, you should think the same about yourself. Personally, I'd be hesitant, loath actually, to consider myself God, but if you think he was God then you have to think you are also God. Yikes! I know you don't think that.

BTW, Jesus (and us) being of God is very understandable. It's not at all hard to fathom you are of your earthy father. Not a bit complicated, really. It just means God is Jesus' father as well as our father. Certainly no mystery there! God bless...

 

[rrobs]

It makes sense to me. You just don't want to understand it. The Son is not the Father so Jesus was not his own father.

Then they are not one? OK. I misunderstood. Sorry about that. I thought you were saying they are one, unlike any other father and son.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Actually very simple. There is no "person" named "God". There is a "person" named "Father" and another "person"named "Jesus". They are completely separate and different. The Father is not Jesus and Jesus is not the Father. Together they are "God".So they are two different "persons" who are both "God". Kind of like a husband and wife are two different people but they make up one family. So "God" is really like a family.

 

[rrobs]

Trinity just means relationship between three things.

Prove jesus and god dont have a relationship with each other, then you disprove the trinity.

If trinitarians believed jesus is god, they would not be trinitarians.

Maybe there is another brand of trinity I've not heard of, but I think they do in fact believe that Jesus is God. I'm pretty sure they say you can't even be born again without believing Jesus is God, that you're going to hell. That's my understanding anyway.

I'd be surprised to find out otherwise, pleasantly surprised I might add! I hate to think that professing Christians worship two gods, so if I'm wrong on that, praise God and pass the ammo! Oh wait, that's not right. Just praise God, forget the ammo!

 

[rrobs]

Actually very simple. There is no "person" named "God". There is a "person" named "Father" and another "person"named "Jesus". They are completely separate and different. The Father is not Jesus and Jesus is not the Father. Together they are "God".So they are two different "persons" who are both "God". Kind of like a husband and wife are two different people but they make up one family. So "God" is really like a family.

Well, it sounds good on the surface, but I'm wracking my mind to think of any scripture that will fit with what you said. I come up with a blank. Which verses are you thinking of?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Then they are not one? OK. I misunderstood. Sorry about that. I thought you were saying they are one, unlike any other father and son.

One in Essence and Substance but not the same Person. The closest way I can explain is to imagine 3 people sharing the same soul, but they each have different personalities and roles.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Maybe there is another brand of trinity I've not heard of, but I think they do in fact believe that Jesus is God. I'm pretty sure they say you can't even be born again without believing Jesus is God, that you're going to hell. That's my understanding anyway.

I'd be surprised to find out otherwise, pleasantly surprised I might add! I hate to think that professing Christians worship two gods, so if I'm wrong on that, praise God and pass the ammo! Oh wait, that's not right. Just praise God, forget the ammo!

I said the trinity is a relationship between three things. Some people say jesus is god because jesus is gods son like your son is to you the father. In this case, they dont differientiate between father and son because of their 100 percent relationship with each other.

For example, you are the father to your son. Pretend your son's name is Joe. When you go away, you intrust your message to your son Joe. After you leave, anyone who wants to know what you (Rob) says goes through your son Joe. Unless joe lied, whatever Joe says, you say.

Your son Is you and you Are your son. (This is trinitarian view)

On the other hand,

Say you go away and Joe talks for you. The person listening knows you are the father and Joe your son. They know that you are older than Joe. They also know, unlike you, Joe is in front of them. They make the seperation from you, Robb, and Joe because by nature and title you two are different. Same blood. Different nature.

You are related to your son. Your son comes from you. You and your son share blood. These words: related, from, and share talks about more than one thing related to each other.

This is non-trinitarian view.

They are both biblical. It depends on how you want to relate to christ. When you think on your own, draw your own conclusions, you see validity in these different terms.

If you are going by other -peoples- definition and not the bible, you wont get it. The definition of the trinity is in scripture. Anything else you are running around catching something that doesnt exist scripturaly speaking.

Please read.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@rrobs

If you read the bible and draw your own conclusions from the definition of trinity, you will find the concept in there. If you listen to other people without drawing your own conclusion from scripture, you wont find it in there.

Dont depend on the trinity defined by others if you are really concerned over the definition of the word. Read the bible. The definition is there.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

No wonder you're confused. You don't even understand the basics of the Trinity concept. The Christian Trinity consists of three Persons - the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They are not the same Persons. Jesus would be God the Son, the second Person of the Trinity. The Father would be the first Person of the Trinity. It is the Father who is commonly referred to in the Hebrew Bible, although there are parts interpreted as referencing the Trinity. So, no - Trinitarianism doesn't teach that Jesus was his own father or that he prayed to himself or whatever.

One would wander why there is no such an explicit and clear teaching in old testament that, the Father God, has one Son God with the name of Jesus. Why God the Father did not introduce His son in old testament?