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Featured Problems with the Baha'i faith

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Kapalika, May 2, 2017.

  1. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member

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    Baha'u'llah wrote many tablets and letters as well as books. They are all authoritative sacred scripture for us as the Quran is for the Muslims. Just because a tablet or letter is not a book, does not make it any less authoritative.

    The quotation provided above as well as the other three are all from Baha'u'llah's or God's Revelation to humanity.

    Accessing Baha'u'llah's writings in English is as easy as accessing an English translation of the Quran. I have provided you with the relevant links.
     
  2. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member

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    Here are some points of agreement between us:

    We believe in an Omnipotent, All-Powerful God.
    God has created the universe and all that exists
    God has qualities of Love and Justice
    God is concerned for His creation
    Man is a special part of His creation and we have been created in His image
    God out of concern for His creation and humanity has guided us through Great Teachers and/or prophets
    One of those Great/Teachers or Prophets (Jesus) is exalted above all humans
    God expects us to make a great effort to live in accordance with His teachings and to have Faith in Jesus
    The OT prophets have provided God's guidance to the Jewish peoples
    The Bible has a record of Jesus, the apostles, and the OT prophets
    Jesus, the apostles, and the OT prophets we guided by God's unerring spirit
    The Bible should be considered authentic and authoritative
    We should love God with all our being and love our neighbours and enemies as Jesus taught
    We should forgive others
    We should be good as God is good
    We believe that we have a soul and that there is an afterlife
    We believe that evil is a real problem
    We believe that Christ promised He would return and spoke of the signs that would accompany His Return.
    The Returned Christ will bring in a new age or era in human history.
    Jesus is the 'Son of God'
    'Salvation' is intimately associated with Christ.
    Jesus was crucified
    His sacrifice enabled our salvation
    The resurrection is a concept/reality of profound significance and importance

    Not true. The bible concerns both things that change little over time and the exigencies of social/cultural circumstances.

    How many of the 613 Jewish laws or Mitzvah?

    In regards to the NT it is a male dominated world, slavery is the norm, and the world is run by empires. There is no global perspective.

    How about this gem from the apostle Paul?

    Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
    And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

    1 Corinthians 14:34-35

    Eternal law of transient?

    I recall we previously agreed the numbers arguments was problematic? Playing the devils advocate, the 67% of the worlds population that are not Christian's must mean that Christianity is not true. Right!?

    I do not know what part of the world you live in, but in my country (New Zealand) numbers of Christians are falling rapidly. It is anticipated that the number of those with no religion are set to overtake the numbers of Christians. Should we assume that having no religion is the best position?

    According to Pew research the world wide numbers of Muslims will overtake Christians by the end of the century. Does that mean Islam is right?

    That's reasonable.

    Allah is of course another word for God, and there is just one. The attributes of God in Islam seem remarkably similar to Christianity.

    Heard of selective abstraction?

    I've addressed the problem with this type of argument above.

    It could be a closer contest between Christianity and Islam than you think.

    So that makes genesis literally true?

    As such, young Earth creationism is dismissed by the academic and the scientific communities. One 1987 estimate found that "700 scientists ... (out of a total of 480,000 U.S. earth and life scientists) ... give credence to creation-science".

    Young Earth creationism - Wikipedia

    So who has the numbers now?

    95% of Germany considered themselves Christian when Hitler was elected.

    Heard of anti- Semitism?

    Antisemitism - Wikipedia

    How about the Hippocratic Oath:

    Hippocratic Oath - Wikipedia
     
  3. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Well, it's nice that you are trying to find common ground. However, how far past these statements do the two religions diverge?
     
  4. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member

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    • The Divinity of Jesus
    • The sinful nature of mankind and its origins with Adam's fall
    • Physical resurrection
    • The Triune nature of the Godhead
    • The manner in which Christ's sacrifice on the cross saves
    • The existence of a physical being called Satan
    • The exclusivity of Jesus's claims
    • The return of Jesus: when, its purpose and what it will accomplish
    • The nature of the afterlife
     
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  5. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    You reject my analogy, then go on to use it yourself. Remarkable.

    Whatever culture is, it does not compel absolute submissiveness to it. That is why you find many theological world views in just about every culture on earth. Heck, the members of my tiny church have serious dogmatic differences.

    Culture does not explain the resurrection, no resurrection had ever occurred in Hebrew culture before Christ. Christianity arose as a complete counter culture, Christ has been called the original revolutionary.


    Because that's exactly where you were heading. Any argument that mentions consciousness requires a definition of it.


    So before you even attempt to describe consciousness its self you introduce the "states" of what you failed to describe. No one knows much of anything about consciousness other than we apprehend it's existence.


    Mr. Tarts conclusion was that everyone's entire worldview is imposed on them by culture and is not actually true. If so then his theory was imposed on him by his culture and by his own criteria is therefore not true. It's a tautology.

    Regardless, I did not experience any cultural artifact. It was a spiritual experience, not a sensory experience. I had absolutely zero cultural expectations concerning what I experienced.


    Truth claims are exclusive claims. There is only one answer to 2 + 2 =. Not a different answer for each person. Christ died on that cross or not, he was resurrected or not, he paid for my sins or not. God is not a schizophrenia. If our interpretations of a verse contradict each other then either 1 or neither of us are right.


    Actually it appears that abstract concepts (like logic and mathematics) if they exist, are less limited than the universe. They appear to transcend nature.

    What particular "truth" are you talking about? All claims to knowledge have differing levels of reliability.

    Everything you say seems to be a premise for a conclusion you never make. Yes cultures exist, so what?

    There is no reason what so ever to claim that our brains cannot accurately account for much of external reality. In fact it is almost miraculous that our brains seemed to be specifically designed to apprehend facts external to its self. If you actually study consciousness this is called the "about-ness" issue. I have every warrant imaginable to trust my experience unless I also apprehend a defeater.

    I mentioned that two contradictory claims to truth cannot both be true in the same way at the same time, and the above is what you respond with? Nothing you said was relevant to what I said.


    God in theism is personal and both could and should reveal himself to us. Deism is irrelevant, pantheism is redundant, paganism is contingent, and atheism is incoherent. The only meaningful God would be a relational being.
     
  6. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist It's cranberry juice. Uh, cran-apple

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    Actually, reading I cant see how christianity has a common ground with bahai. On each of these, bahai sees differently.

    Okay.

    Carry on.
     
  7. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    I have only a finite amount of time and I seem to attract the most prolific posters so I must be brunt and brief by necessity.

    Biblical criticism may be the most scrutinized subject in human history. Even the bible's critics like Bart Ehrman consider the modern bible (95%) and theologians (about 99.5%) accurate compared with the original documents. That is why every modern bible you open has every suspicious verse, translation, or word pointed out along with the history and nature of the uncertainty.


    For Pity's sake, are you actually claiming that Nebuchadnezzar and then Alexander the Great wiped Tyre (an island super fortress) off the map to make Ezekiel look like a prophet? And that Britain wanted to make Daniel come true so bad they created the nation of Israel on the exact day necessary to do so? What about Satan, is he so obedient to God that he will volunteer to swan dive into the lake of fire and be consumed?

    Your hemorrhaging credibility.

    Magic doesn't exist but Jesus did claim to have supernatural power, thousands witnessed that power, and Christ quoted from those scriptures you dismiss. If you believe in a God which lacks the power to resurrect you of what relevance is he?


    I do not know if it is supportable or not, but I do know you didn't support it.


    From the above you apparently believe in an inert God.


    The bible, by far, is the most accepted guide concerning finding God. Heck, even other faith's try to gain credibility by proxy by association with it. The bible's sovereignty over any other claim to faith is total. Do you adhere to any text, or just make it up as you go?

    Those authors said they wrote as the Holy Spirit spoke. Now either they were liars or the bible is the word of God. It's been 2000 years, point out a single lie. God is not beyond belief, that does not even make sense, and your contradicting yourself. Your doing more damage to your position than I can.


    It is not because a dog is complex, it is because a dog's will has no known laws to predict it.

    They apply math to the mind all the time. However math alone does not explain the mind. Math is an explanation but not a sufficient explanation for the mind.

    You sure do spend a lot of time spinning your wheels. I have to break this into two post. Continued below.
     
  8. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    A disembodied mind is literally the simplest thing imaginable. What it can do is complex.

    As I said a disembodied mind is the simplest concept possible, but it can do the most complex things imaginable.


    Sounds like a conversation held by a bunch of 15 year olds smoking pot. I have a degree in math which requires quite a bit of calculus based physics, however I can't use any of it on your claims because your not really saying anything. How on earth you got being, matter, body, mind, soul, spirit, atoms, molecules, cells, bodies, mind, hermeneutics, states of awareness into a single paragraph without actually making a point about a single one of them is quite appalling.


    Your God is too impotent and negligent to even matter. If a God would create beings without explaining what was good or bad for them he would be more evil that parents who neglect their children. Morality is not our projecting anything on God. Most moral values and duties are inconvenient and go against what we actually want to do.

    That isn't what I said. No one ever wrote an equation because of what he thought about God. I said that modern science only appeared in Christian Europe because Christians assumed a rational God would create a rational universe. It turned out they were right. The universe is lawful. Their faith didn't create calculus, it made them look for it.

    Of course scientists made mistakes, does not change the fact that modern science exploded only in Christian Europe. 78% of Nobel Laureates have been Christians and many of the rest are Jews.

    What the heck are you talking about? I work in a DOD avionics lab, with a PhD, a guy with two masters degrees, a guy with a masters and a bachelors, one cousin has a doctorate, another a masters, my sister has a masters, and my younger brother is a national merit scholarship winner. That is just my job and my family and they are 100% Christians. Look at any list of science's greatest scholars and it will be a who's who of Christians. I used to paste a list of them but it takes almost the whole post to do so.


    First of all I have two degrees in math and am a senior in a third in engineering. Second no effect has ever been known to precede it's cause.


    I know I am just too dumb to see how smart you are.

    I think I am going to call a halt here. You are requiring more time than I can justify. BTW if you want to see someone who actually knows how to debate about science and is on your side of things read some of Polymath257's posts to me. I disagree with him/her but they are competent and rational. What your doing is metaphysical speculation, normally referred to as Gnosticism and IMO it is extremely unwise. No hard feelings but theological debates take place on derivation, revelation, or inferences to the best conclusions, not on mere speculation.
     
    #148 1robin, May 15, 2017
    Last edited: May 15, 2017
  9. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    To add further.
    The argument has already been given in Quran:
    [​IMG]
    [14:25] Dost thou not see how Allah sets forth the similitude of a good word? It is like a good tree, whose root is firm and whose branches reach into heaven.
    [​IMG]
    [14:26] It brings forth its fruit at all times by the command of its Lord. And Allah sets forth similitudes for men that they may reflect.
    [​IMG]
    [14:27] And the case of an evil word is like that of an evil tree, which is uprooted from above the earth and has no stability.
    [​IMG]
    [14:28] Allah strengthens the believers with the word that is firmly established, both in the present life and in the Hereafter; and Allah lets the wrongdoers go astray. And Allah does what He wills.

    The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online

    So, as per these verses of Quran, Quran is for every age to come and there could no Revelation come to replace Quran. And if one claims to have Revelation that is to replace Quran, that would be only an evil tree, nothing to do with Quran. Please
    Regards
     
  10. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    Why an evil tree, @paarsurrey ?

    Is it so difficult to accept that people may advance on their knowledge - even their religious knowledge - after around 1400 years?
     
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  11. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Abdulbaha Answers:


    "From the days of Adam until today, the religions of God have been made manifest, one following the other, and each one of them fulfilled its due function, revived mankind, and provided education and enlightenment. They freed the people from the darkness of the world of nature and ushered them into the brightness of the Kingdom. As each succeeding Faith and Law became revealed it remained for some centuries a richly fruitful tree and to it was committed the happiness of humankind. However, as the centuries rolled by, it aged, it flourished no more and put forth no fruit, wherefore was it then made young again.
    The religion of God is one religion, but it must ever be renewed. Moses, for example, was sent forth to man and He established a Law, and the Children of Israel, through that Mosaic Law, were delivered out of their ignorance and came into the light; they were lifted up from their abjectness and attained to a glory that fadeth not. Still, as the long years wore on, that radiance passed by, that splendour set, that bright day turned to night; and once that night grew triply dark, the star of the Messiah dawned, so that again a glory lit the world.
    Our meaning is this: the religion of God is one, and it is the educator of humankind, but still, it needs must be made new. When thou dost plant a tree, its height increaseth day by day. It putteth forth blossoms and leaves and luscious fruits. But after a long time, it doth grow old, yielding no fruitage any more. Then doth the Husbandman of Truth take up the seed from that same tree, and plant it in a pure soil; and lo, there standeth the first tree, even as it was before."

    You can read farther:

    Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Pages 51-53
     
  12. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
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    I have to limit what I respond to simply for time constraints. This is BS. We talk about the various forms of life with one another all the time, yet are we feeling it necessary to tackle the "hard question" of "what is life" before we have any sort of intelligent discussion about the obvious? Why are you making this deliberately, and unnecessarily difficult, except to deflect?

    That is absolutely not "exactly where" I was heading. It was exactly not there. Stick with the obvious, unless you're deliberately trying to be obtuse here.

    I did explain states to you. "Waking, dreaming, deep sleep, altered states: subtle, causal nondual...". You need to apply yourself a little here. It was there.

    No one really knows much of what "life" exactly means, yet we all have a common understanding of it. Work with that, for goodness sake. This is the deep "hard question" we're dealing with here. "Awareness", what we perceive, let's go with that for a working definition for you. Alright?

    Oh for god's sake. I'm not going to bother with this. You're just being deliberately obtuse. Developmental theory sounds like 15 years olds smoking pot? That comment sounds pretty silly from all I know about these topics; like something I'd hear from my son when he was 18.

    You know, I'm happy you have these degrees. That doesn't translate into you understanding any of this material, and your out-of-hand dismissive responses , such as here and in all the other areas presented, betray something less than an educated mind I could respect. I could add that your responses laced with personal insults from the beginning also betrays something about the nature of your Christian faith as well, but I'll allow that we all have our things that trigger our shadow selves. God knows I do as well. It's obvious this is going to go nowhere so I won't waste either my or your time in trying to present the material others have researched extensively, or points of view which challenge your ideas you've locked into place.
     
    #152 Windwalker, May 15, 2017
    Last edited: May 16, 2017
  13. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
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  14. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    Yes we probably would agree on most of those things, but they compose maybe a hundred words out of the bible's 750,000. So my original claim:

    Is still holding firm.

    I said that of it's primary doctrines. It's secondary details of course deal with things that change over time.

    How many have changed? Well before I give my response those are Levitical laws and a huge percentage apply to things that either can't be done, or that no longer have any relevance. For example dozens of them have to do with the actual temple, but it was destroyed in 70AD. For the laws that remain relevant it is not that they no longer are true (murder is still wrong) they assume a new roll in the covenant of grace. Jesus perfectly fulfilled the law, so when I accept him through substitutionary atonement, his righteousness is credited to me wholly apart from work of the law.

    New International Version
    For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

    English Standard Version
    by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

    1. God made the world to be male dominated. He set the husband over the wife.
    2. The entire covenant of marriage between one man and one woman was to reflect the covenant between Christ (the bridegroom) and the church (the bride). It is obvious to see from that who is submissive to who. But this in no way is meant a man should abuse that sovereignty.
    3. Slavery was far more the norm in OT Judaism than NT Christianity. When Christ lived Rome dominated Israel, the Hebrews were more likely to be slaves than to have them.
    4. The past 5000 years have been ruled by empires.
    5. There is more global perspective today than at any time in the past but I have no idea what your talking about.

    Ok, how about it?

    Did you mean to say "or" instead of "of".

    Popularity is persuasive based on probability, but it does not guarantee truth.

    I told you that the global number of Christians increases by the equivalent of the population of Nevada every year, despite its not counting a new born as a Christian and making leaving the faith a capitol crime as Islam does. I though New Zealand was a Muslim nation, but maybe I al thinking of Indonesia. Regardless on the whole Christianity is thriving.

    No, for 2 reasons.

    1. As stated Islam grows by compulsion. A baby is considered a Muslim at birth if it has Muslim parent, and leaving the faith is punishable by death in many nations.
    2. Popularity never makes anything true. It is just a factor that makes some things more probable.

    I did not say that Christianity's popularity makes it true, I said it shouldn't be so popular if your claim were true.



    It is reasonable, but it is also inconvenient.



    If you want to discuss Islam lets start at the beginning.

    1. It is the supposed revelation of one man.
    2. A man who had no supernatural miracles or prophecies to back up his claims.
    3. Who plagiarized heretical texts, who had fits which detail for detail match the bible's description of Demonic possession, who led a blood soaked tyranny.
    4. The Quran contains medical errors, mathematical errors, historical errors, and it's violent verse abrogate it's peaceful verses.
    5. Muhammad's first description of an angel was exactly contradictory to every biblical description of an angel, which terrified and confused him to the point he considered suicide.



    Did you mean heard, if so no, probably because it sounds logically incoherent.



    No, you make arguments which if true would result in a massive decline in Christianity's numbers. I respond that your argument must be wrong because no such decline exists. You try to misdirect the discussion from the failure of your argument by pointing out that popularity doesn't make something true. Which I never claimed in the first place.

    I wasn't referring to either. Compared to Baha'ism, Islam is a featherweight when it comes to distorting the scriptures of others.



    No it makes you argument that science and the bible are in conflict utterly wrong.

    I am not a young Earth creationist. Your just misdirecting the discussion away from your failed argument again.



    Why are you spitting out random concepts?

    1. It is very easy to see how Hitler got elected. In fact it would be hard to show that he shouldn't have been elected. But 95% of the people who elected him (and by the way much of his rise was not due to elections) knew nothing about who he really was.
    2. Yes, but irrelevant.
    3. Yes, but irrelevant.
     
  15. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Please quote from Bahaullah in this connection.
    Regards
     
  16. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    "O dwellers of the earth! Would ye contend that if We raise up a soul unto the Sadratu’l Muntahá, 8 it shall then cease to be subject to the power of Our sovereignty and dominion? Nay, by Mine own Self! Should it be Our wish, We would return it to the dust in less than the twinkling of an eye. Consider a tree: Behold how We plant it in a garden, and nourish it with the waters of Our loving care; and how, when it hath grown tall and mature, and brought forth verdant leaves and goodly fruits, We send forth the tempestuous gales of Our decree, tear it up by its roots, and lay it prostrate upon the face of the earth. So hath it been Our way with all things, and so shall it be in this day. Such, in truth, are the matchless wonders of Our immutable method—a method which hath ever governed, and shall continue to govern, all things, if ye be of them that perceive. None, however, knoweth the wisdom thereof save God, the All-Powerful, the Almighty, the All-Wise."

    Bahá'í Reference Library - The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, Pages 3-54


    "O servant of God! The Tree which We had planted with the Hand of Providence hath borne its destined fruit, and the glad-tidings We had imparted in the Book have appeared in full effect."

    Bahá'í Reference Library - The Tabernacle of Unity, Pages 71-77
     
    #156 InvestigateTruth, May 16, 2017
    Last edited: May 16, 2017
  17. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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  18. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
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    Yet you respond. Disappointment, on multiple levels.
     
  19. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member

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    We have agreement about twenty four principles Christianity and the Baha'i Faith have in common. These principles cover much of what the bible teaches.

    Did you mean 100 words or 100%? If 100 words, substantiate the claim.

    How about defining Christianity? The problem you have is selective bias. You refer to the conservative Christians when is suits you and to all those who would consider themselves Christian in the same post. Christians are a theologically diverse group, with a long history of schism and division. Many Christian groups want to consider themselves as being the true Christians and seem ready to criticise other Christians. You are no different.

    There is no universal agreement amongst all Christians about primary doctrines. Perhaps you could spell out the primary doctrines you believe in, rather than purporting to speak for all Christians.

    You have just provided an example of how Christians have distorted their own religion. The justification of Grace by Faith alone is theologically problematic and has resulted in moral laxity and bigotry amongst Christians. Baha'is believe that it is both faith and deeds that are required for salvation, not faith alone.

    I'm certain you believe that, but it exemplifies the problem with a religion whose sacred writings are nearly two thousand years old.

    Of course that sovereignty has been abused. The Christian view of men dominating women is an example of Christianity's struggle to adapt to the modern world.

    Yet there are no laws in the bible abolishing slavery. This contributed to Christian countries and empires promoting slavery for centuries and their reluctance to abolish such practices.

    That is true and now democracy is becoming the established means for governing human affairs. The Bible has close to nothing to say about it.

    I'm highlighting some of the problems that have accounted for Christianity's crisis and decline in the West.

    As people living the modern age we do not merely occupy a private sphere, but are active participants in a social order. Although many of the revealed truths of Christianity remain valid, the daily experience of an individual in the twenty first century is unimaginably removed from the two thousand years ago when Christ came. Democratic decision making has fundamentally altered the relationship of the individual to authority. With growing confidence and growing success, women justly insist on their right to full equality with men. Revolutions in science and technology change not only the functioning but the conception of society and existence itself. Universal education and an explosion of new fields of knowledge open the way to insights that stimulate social mobility and integration, and create new opportunities. Nuclear energy, sexual identity, ecological stress and the use of wealth raise, at the very least, social questions that have no precedent. These, and the countless other changes affecting every aspect of human life, have brought into being a new world of daily choices for both society and its members. What has not changed is the inescapable requirement of making such choices, whether for better or worse. It is here that the spiritual nature of the contemporary crisis comes into focus because most of the decisions are not merely practical but moral. In large part, therefore, loss of faith in traditional religion has been an inevitable consequence of failure to discover in it the guidance required to live with modernity, successfully and with assurance.

    Throughout the world, people raised in a Christian frame of reference find themselves abruptly thrown into close association with others whose beliefs and practices appear at first glance irreconcilably different from their own. The differences can and often do give rise to defensiveness and conflict. In many cases, however, the effect is to prompt a reconsideration of doctrine and to encourage efforts at discovering values held in common. The support enjoyed by various interfaith activities doubtless owes a great deal to response of this kind among the general public. Inevitably, with such approaches comes a questioning of religious doctrines that inhibit association and understanding. If people whose beliefs appear to be fundamentally different from one’s own nevertheless live moral lives that deserve admiration, what is it that makes one’s own faith superior to theirs? Alternatively, if all of the great religions share certain basic values in common, do not conservative Christian's attachments run the risk of merely reinforcing unwanted barriers between an individual and his neighbours?

    Each one of the world's independent religions is set in the mould created by its authoritative scripture and its history. As it cannot refashion its system of belief in a manner to derive legitimacy from the authoritative words of its Founder, it likewise cannot adequately answer the multitude of questions posed by social and intellectual evolution.

    Jesus had next to no followers at the time of His crucifixion (even Peter had denied Him thrice), yet it has become the religion with the most adherents today. Most Jews rejected Jesus. We need to understand the meaning behind the numbers and the trends.

    Not in West. Do you really want to look at the break down in numbers. One hundred years ago most (90+ %) of New Zealanders would have considered them selves Christian. The numbers are now less than 50% and falling rapidly. This is a trend in many Western countries.

    Christianity has never compelled anyone to become Christians!?

    You were the one who brought up Islam by highlighting the sura in regards to Christ. Neither of us are Muslims. Let's stick to considering the Baha'i Faith and Christianity.

    Not true. Many Muslims regard the gospels as corrupted whereas Baha'is considered them to be relatively authentic and authoritative.

    I'm pleased you are not a YEC but you have to admit Christians and Scientists have a long history of conflict.

    I'm highlighting Christianity's extensive history of bigotry, violence, and harm to others. It may be irrelevant to you but its part of why masses are leaving Christianity in the West.
     
    #159 adrian009, May 16, 2017
    Last edited: May 17, 2017
  20. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Which book Bahaullah means here? Kindly give name of the book and the verse with the context verses. Please
    Regards
     
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