Problems with the Baha'i faith

[paarsurrey]

The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and centre your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.

Please provide the reference.
Regards

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I wanted to share a couple of things... You can take a given topic... such as "Peace" and find similarities in all the past dispensations... Here's a few examples..

Krishna rose amidst the monarchs, strove the tumult to appease,
And unto the angry suitors spake in words of righteous peace,
Monarchs bowed to Krishna's mandate, left Panchala's festive land,
Arjun took the beauteous princess, gently led her by the hand.

(Hindu, Mababharata (R. Dutt, abridged tr))

We worship the (sacrificial) words correctly uttered, and Sraosha (Obedience) the blessed, and
the good Ashi, (the blest order of our rites), and Nairya-sangha. And we worship the
victorious Peace as the unprostrated and unmoved.

(The Zend-Avesta, Avesta - Visperad)

In the same way that the jasmine drops its withered flowers, you too should discard desire and aversion, bhikkhus.
Peaceful of body, peaceful of speech and with his mind thoroughly stilled, the bhikkhu who has rid himself of attachment
to the world - is called "at peace".

(Buddhist, Dhammapada - Sayings of the Buddha 1 (tr. J. Richards))



And David sent ten young men, and David said unto the young men: 'Get you up to Carmel, and go to Nabal, and greet him in my name; 1 25,6 and thus ye shall say: All hail! and peace be both unto thee, and peace be to thy house, and peace be unto all that thou hast.

(Nev'im (Prophets), Shmuel (Samuel))

14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

(King James Bible, John)

And if the two parties of the believers quarrel, then make peace between them; and if one of the twain outrages the other, then fight the party that has committed the outrage until it return to God's bidding; and if it do return then make peace between them with equity, and be just; verily, God loves the just. The believers are but brothers, so make peace between your two brethren and fear God, haply ye may obtain mercy!

(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 49 - The Inner Chambers)

Peace in this world, peace in the next world and peace forever, remembering Him in meditation. Chant forever the Name of the Lord of the Universe.

(Shri Guru Granth Sahib, Section 14 - Raag Dhanaasaree)

I charge you all that each one of you concentrate all the thoughts of your heart on love and unity. When a thought of war comes, oppose it by a stronger thought of peace. A thought of hatred must be destroyed by a more powerful thought of love. Thoughts of war bring destruction to all harmony, well-being, restfulness and content.
Thoughts of love are constructive of brotherhood, peace, friendship, and happiness.
When soldiers of the world draw their swords to kill, soldiers of God clasp each other's hands! So may all the savagery of man disappear by the Mercy of God, working through the pure in heart and the sincere of soul. Do not think the peace of the world an ideal impossible to attain!
Nothing is impossible to the Divine Benevolence of God.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 28)

It's best I think to focus on what we have in common and what is in our best interest is peace...

The vision of the Parliament of the World's Religions is of a just, peaceful and sustainable world in which:

• Religious and spiritual communities live in harmony and contribute to a better world from their riches of wisdom and compassion.
• Religious and cultural fears and hatreds are replaced with understanding and respect.
• People everywhere come to know and care for their neighbors.
• The richness of human and religious diversity is woven into the fabric of communal, civil, societal and global life.
• The world's most powerful and influential institutions move beyond narrow self-interest to realize common good.
• The Earth and all life are cherished, protected, healed and restored.
• All people commit to living out their highest values and aspirations.

and

Search Results For: peace | Parliament of the World's Religions

All of this is beautiful. This isn't meant to belittle you, though I feel the context of what these verses mean can better be expressed by the practitioners (and those who identify as such) who practice the faith beyond theology.

For example, I wouldn't ask @Vinayaka about Bahai scripture. He (for example) may know a lot of it, but because of his lack of intimacy within the faith, what he says is the same thing I can look up on my own. On the other hand, when an actual Bahai expresses his own faith, likewise a Catholic, Buddhist, so forth then you get more meaning of what peace actually means.

Likewise, you understand peace is different for everyone. It's not the same peace by a different name. I don't see how that could be.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

All of this is beautiful. This isn't meant to belittle you, though I feel the context of what these verses mean can better be expressed by the practitioners (and those who identify as such) who practice the faith beyond theology.

For example, I wouldn't ask @Vinayaka about Bahai scripture. He (for example) may know a lot of it, but because of his lack of intimacy within the faith, what he says is the same thing I can look up on my own. On the other hand, when an actual Bahai expresses his own faith, likewise a Catholic, Buddhist, so forth then you get more meaning of what peace actually means.

Likewise, you understand peace is different for everyone. It's not the same peace by a different name. I don't see how that could be.

Here is another example showing Religions are essentially One:


"And if thine eyes be turned towards justice, choose thou for thy neighbour that which thou choosest for thyself."

— Bahá'u'lláh[43][44]

"Ascribe not to any soul that which thou wouldst not have ascribed to thee, and say not that which thou doest not."

— Bahá'u'lláh[45][46][47]



"No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother that which he desires for himself."
Islam (Sunnah)

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
Christianity (Matthew 7:12)

"Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful. "
Buddhism (Udana- Varga, 5:18)

"Never do to others what would pain thyself."
Hinduism (Mahabharata 5:1517)

"What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow.
That is the entire law; the rest is commentary."
Judaism (Talmud, showboat Shabbat)

"That nature only is good when it shall not do unto another whatever is not good for its own self."
Zoroastrianism (Dadistan-i-Dinik, 94:5)


* * *


This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it - verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.

~~Bahá'u'lláh


Progressive Revelation - Welcome to the Bahá’í Community of Medicine Hat

Golden Rule - Wikipedia

 

[Vinayaka]

Here is another example showing Religions are essentially One:

A brief reading of several religious summaries will definitively show vast and irreconcilable differences. They are incredibly different, because humans and cultures are wonderfully different.

One cannot reconcile heaven/hell one life with reincarnation.
One cannot reconcile the need for a prophet with no need for a prophet.
There is no valid comparison between ahimsa and himsa.
There is no compromise between a God being totally formless, one with form, and simultaneously both.

Looking at the way Baha'i's interpret religion in such simplistic platitudes makes me wonder if some have read anything at all about other faiths, besides these same very simplistic platitudes.

Yawn.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Here is another example showing Religions are essentially One:


"And if thine eyes be turned towards justice, choose thou for thy neighbour that which thou choosest for thyself."

— Bahá'u'lláh[43][44]

"Ascribe not to any soul that which thou wouldst not have ascribed to thee, and say not that which thou doest not."

— Bahá'u'lláh[45][46][47]



"No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother that which he desires for himself."
Islam (Sunnah)

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
Christianity (Matthew 7:12)

"Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful. "
Buddhism (Udana- Varga, 5:18)

"Never do to others what would pain thyself."
Hinduism (Mahabharata 5:1517)

"What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow.
That is the entire law; the rest is commentary."
Judaism (Talmud, showboat Shabbat)

"That nature only is good when it shall not do unto another whatever is not good for its own self."
Zoroastrianism (Dadistan-i-Dinik, 94:5)


* * *


This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it - verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.

~~Bahá'u'lláh


Progressive Revelation - Welcome to the Bahá’í Community of Medicine Hat

Golden Rule - Wikipedia

I know what you believe. Quoting (as mentioned before) does not make a light bulb pop in my head to spiritual understanding. Also, I am not Hindu, Christian, nor Bahai so I don't have insight to interpret what you're saying (nor because you are not Christian or Hindu) in a light of insight rather than knowledge.

Instead, do you understand what I'm saying? (@Vinayaka )

There are many trees and each tree has many leaves. I don't agree with humanity being one unit. That's squeezing an rainbow into one color.

Many metaphors of what I am saying but I can't explain it anymore. I don't have scriptures to back up my points. The insight and spirit comes from me.

 

[Vinayaka]

I know what you believe.

Baha'i's are forbidden to proselytize. The river of hypocrisy flows like a Baha'i' angel dancing in the Unity forest of love.

 

[Dawnofhope]

That may be the official stance, but it's not the reality. There would be no need for Pioneers, no need for pamphlet distribution, no need for door to door, if that were the case. Yes I've had Christians at my door saying they were 'just sharing'.

Many Baha'is actively teach their faith to others, but there is reasonably clear line which distinguishes proselytising and teaching.

Baha'u'llah has said:

"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who hear it.”

Abdu'l-Baha has said:

"say not that which the ears cannot bear to hear"

If it had it not been for the willingness of others to share the Baha'i teachings I would never of heard of it, and not sure where I would have been. I'm enormously grateful for those that have sacrificed even their lives, so I may hear the message. The Baha'i Faith has enriched my life immeasurably.

I realise that different people do interpret that teaching differently. I have never seen you proselytising on this forum, but I have personally reported other Baha'i' adherents for it on these forums. Here it's been mostly when an unsolicited response is 'Here, read this stuff by Baha'u'llah, it'll explain it all." kind of stuff. There was a time that a debate was held on these forums over it, and if I remember correctly the mods sided with the victims.

I'm reasonably new here. Although I signed up a couple of years ago, I didn't start posting until five months ago. I'm here to learn about different faiths and talk to new people. I'm happy to share my faith and on occasion have advocated strongly for the Baha'i faith including this thread. This is an unusual circumstance of defending the Baha'i Faith though.

It has clearly happened in India, and been reported to the authorities. many locals are very cautious, and lump the Baha'i' right up there with evangelical Christians in that regard. I'm not sure what would happen if a fellow Baha'i' reported it to the Baha'i' authorities.

Pioneering (Bahá'í) - Wikipedia

Pioneering is a perfect example of differing. Baha'i's claim it isn't proselytising. I and many others would think it is. As you know, I stand against it because I think it is himsa.

Sometimes our biggest failures in life are what we fail to do, rather than what we do. We live in a time where inertia and apathy are all pervasive. There is a dire need for genuine spirituality, especially for our young people. I believe we need to step out of our cultural norms and comfort zones and be prepared to engage in meaningful conversations with peoples of all faiths and backgrounds without fear or apprehension. However that is all very different from proselytising.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Hi Adrian. Before I give my formal response to your post to me today, I wanted to briefly ask you this question. In another thread recently I had brought up James Fowler's Stages of Faith with you and touched on some of that because you were showing a more mature or developed understanding of these matters of faith than some others. That's of course not a value judgement of their stage of faith, just simply an understanding of where others are at. As the saying goes, "Each stage is adequate; each succeeding stage is more adequate."

So what I am wondering here you seem to have a different, "lighter" understanding of what "infallible" means to you, as well as the person you cite. Yet others of the Baha'i faith I've encountered, in this thread and elsewhere have a stricter, more literal understanding of these symbols, "infallibility" being the one in question here. You say if science shows that something the religion says is wrong, then science is right. I've had others say exactly the opposite to that. I spoke about what I see you're doing as reflective of Fowler's Stage 4, Individuative-Reflective faith. For those who cannot hold the meaning apart from the symbol, that the prophet in this case MUST be right or the meaning is gone, that reflects a Stage 3 faith, the Mythic-Literal, or possibly earlier.

So my question to you is do you see some truth in this? Do you see yourself as holding the truths of the Baha'i faith a little "lighter" than others? Do you recognize a spectrum of different truths held about the same things within your own faith, that the "infallible prophet" means one thing to some that if not absolutely true threatens their faith, while it means something less strictly held to others, such as yourself? This line of discussion is of great interest to me, and I'm interested in hearing your thoughts in particular about this.

I'll reply to the other material later as time permits.

Thanks for sharing those stages of Faith. It was interesting to read, and caused me to reflect though I became side tracked with life, so missed the opportunity to respond.

Each day is a new day. One day I may be blessed with wisdom and eloquence and on another be accounted amongst the foolish and egotistical. No sooner do I feel I have reached an elevated plane, than I plummet to the depths of ignorance. On occasion the mystic realm seems closer than my own life vein, on another I am coarser than the clay.

I love these conversations, don't you?

 

[Dawnofhope]

@adrian009

A better word than proselytism is evangalizing.s Not all evangalist seek to convert like proselytism. The definitions focus on christianity (of course) but the general meaning is preaching a doctrine in intent of being a missionary to hat doctrine.

So when all bahai here quote Bahaullah in one full paraphragh without separating text with commentary, it reads as if you are trying to "drill in" bahaullahs words as if reading them will give a light bulb to bahai understanding.

Its usually mixed up on RF as trying to convert (proselytism) not everyone knows the difference Ive seen, so a lot of comments and open ended questions helps relieve the impression of sharing your faith.

The reason I quote from Baha'u'llah is to clarify what the Baha'i faith is. Same deal with Christianity. The discussions here are great, and its so fascinating to consider different perspectives.

I'm here to learn, and to a lesser extent teach.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Please provide the reference.
Regards

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Page 213

 

[Windwalker]

Thanks for sharing those stages of Faith. It was interesting to read, and caused me to reflect though I became side tracked with life, so missed the opportunity to respond.

Each day is a new day. One day I may be blessed with wisdom and eloquence and on another be accounted amongst the foolish and egotistical. No sooner do I feel I have reached an elevated plane, than I plummet to the depths of ignorance. On occasion the mystic realm seems closer than my own life vein, on another I am coarser than the clay.

I love these conversations, don't you?

I love that response. That does to me show wisdom. There's a saying I've said for years that rings truer each day. The more we know, the more we know we don't know. Finally when you give up the goal of knowing, is when you begin to know. You realize it's not an elevated place, but a place of responsibility.

I'll work on my response to your other post from yesterday.

 

[Vinayaka]

Many Baha'is actively teach their faith to others, but there is reasonably clear line which distinguishes proselytising and teaching.

Sometimes our biggest failures in life are what we fail to do, rather than what we do. We live in a time where inertia and apathy are all pervasive. There is a dire need for genuine spirituality, especially for our young people. I believe we need to step out of our cultural norms and comfort zones and be prepared to engage in meaningful conversations with peoples of all faiths and backgrounds without fear or apprehension. However that is all very different from proselytising.

I don't see any clear lines hear at all. It's almost all proselytising to me. In fact, the very minute you feel you want to teach others about your faith indicates you think your faith is superiour to theirs. If not, then there would be no need to 'share'. For me, there is only one condition to be met before sharing, and that's if a person genuinely asks for information.

This is just another example of the hypocrisy. You say that all faiths are wonderful, in unity, you have respect for them, and then immediately go out and prove you don't by trying to change them to yours.

A mutual dialogue, like what is happening here is different, although to me simply quoting your prophet with no other commentary is also proselytising.

As for crediting Baha'i' with changing your life, you don't actually know that. It may well have been your own natural maturing, getting married, getting a decent job, etc. It is impossible to live the two lives simultaneously, with Baha'i' and without Baha'i', for a fair comparison. Maybe you would have been even happier. From your intelligence shown here, I suspect your life would have been similar.

I recall a lesson from my father when I mentioned my new religion had gotten me to quit smoking. He stared me down and said, 'No, it was YOU who quit smoking."

 

[Windwalker]

The relationship between the believer and the prophet changes when he decides to become a follower. It is an evolving relationship. There is always questioning and striving to live better and achieve a better understanding. It is a dynamic, fluid relationship, ever changing. It is not static and rigid though there is a framework. When friends become lovers and/or married the relationship changes too.

Would you say that when you began this that you had in mind that they had the answers, and that if you could find those then you would find peace? But then as time went on the nature of that changed for you, that you no longer saw answers at the end, that the prophet held the answers if you could just rise to that level, and discovered instead that answers are not a fixed point but unfolding truth?

If so, which I suspect is your answer at this stage, how does the model of a prophet in that framework, the one who holds the answers, fit into a dynamic reality for you? It seems a prophet is model of reality with fixed points of truth. Rather than an injunction to look within to discover truth, it is an injunction to look to the prophet to be told truth. Those are very different frameworks.

When I was a Christian and examined the Baha'i Faith I was trying find fault with it so I could reject it and assist Baha'is see the error of their ways. Now I am a Baha'i I allow it to inspire me and to influence my living for the better.

So you were part of an evangelical church trying to find fault with them as an apologist trying to win souls, but instead found fault with your own beliefs and converted to them?

For my first university science degree I majored in zoology, I see no conflict between what is known of biological and the physical sciences and the Baha'i writings. We need to distinguish between known facts and the theories that explain them.

My very long discussion with Loverofhumanity in that other thread had him quoting from Baha'i teachings things which were in direct conflict with accepted biological evolution. I could go and dig those all up if necessary. We discussed those at length, namely that when man was created it was a "man" species from the beginning, and did not evolve from an earlier 'non-man' species such as a fish, or a rodent. That is completely not in harmony with accepted science, and lacks any sort of scientific proof.

Also, I do assume you understand that a scientific theory is not just some hypothetical speculation about things? A scientific theory is not an opinion or a guess. A theory in scientific terms is a highly tested and verified model of how things work. It is anything but "just a theory", that comes and goes. Rather it takes a considerable amount of moving heaven and earth to unseat a standing theory. You do understand this, I assume?

Once its appreciated that we can not prove or disprove the existence of the human soul through scientific means, and humans may have taken a myriad of forms prior to our current one, the problem is resolved.

But saying humans evolved from lower, non-human, non-primate life forms has nothing to do with whether or not we have souls. I tried to explain that in the other thread to him. Science is not making any judgments in an area where its tools of knowledge do not go. This has only to do with biology, not theology. It deals only with the physical world, not a metaphysical one.

Now what I find telling, is this assumption by Baha'u'llah, or others, that for science to say we evolved from non-human species, and that humans are part of the animal kingdom (something I've been told Baha'is reject as true), that this means, or suggests we are not unique or have a soul? Why? Why does saying all life on this planet, included our own, evolved from a single source, "Eve" if you will, the great ancient sea sponge, mean we are not 'made in the image of God', or a have a soul? Why does this devalue humanity and their soul in the eyes of the prophet, to where he, or others would reject science?

I can tell you quite clearly that I have no issue embracing our biological evolution, while at the same time exploring the depths of my own human soul! In fact, understanding the truth of our biological evolution, is a glorious celebration of my humanity and my human soul! To deny the facts, and facts they are, is to ignore the reality of God's creation and ourselves, the glorious nature of our own being on this planet. That's why I said, science-denial is a tragedy and harms spiritual growth.

If science absolutely proves or disproves that which religion teaches, then accept science.

And if you held that your prophet is infallible and he was wrong in what he said about evolution, you end up having no prophet? Or have you found a way to reject what the prophet said, and yet still embrace the faith? (Hence why talking about the Stages of Faith, as I did. Some can, others can't.)

The Baha'i Faith doesn't have a theory of evolution.

But I've be told the prophet is right, despite the contradictions of what he says with accepted science. I've been told one day science will confirm what the prophet said and realize that today they are wrong. I say 'hogwash' to that, to be fair.

We believe in science, and science clearly makes a mockery of literal interpretations of the book of genesis.

You see, I don't see it making a mockery of it. I see that the scientific facts don't support a mythic-literal reality. As the saying goes, "Each stage is adequate. Each higher stage is more adequate." For the mythic world, the reading of it literally carries meaning. But when crossing over into a scientific, rationality based reality, the literal reading does not translate meaning properly. It much be held instead metaphorically.

The story still holds meaning, a great deal of meaning in fact. It's not just some stupid child's story. There's a great deal of human truth in it, even if its stories and characters are mythological in nature. “Myth is my tongue, which means not that I cheat, but stagger in a light too great to bear.”

The one stumbling block is that Abdu'l-Baha said that man was never an animal, meaning he has always had a human soul whether as a single celled organism, something that resembles a chimpanzee, or the diverse forms we now have.

I could have sworn he was quoting from the prophet as well on this. But in either case, to say that man was always distinct from other species, is scientifically false. There was at first a single life, and that life is all life on this planet today. We were not a separate life, a separate "single celled" human. That single celled "us", is also your cat today.

I see the problem you have with it. To you it appears a huge contradiction, whereas I see none whatsoever. I've studied science many years and have three science degrees. Study it for long enough and we are all confronted with the limits of human knowledge and our finite minds.

I certainly have no problem understanding science is not the end all be all for human knowledge. I just posted this last night that demonstrates this: Subjective/Objective reallity

But you cannot say that because science has it's limits, that we are free to ignore what it does very clearly demonstrate. I can't tell you how many times I hear, "science has been wrong before", to open the door to pure fictions being possible. In that other thread that was brought out as well to defend this error about us not evolving from other animals and that we've always been the "human species", which is completely scientifically false. Knowing it's limits, understanding the open-ended truth of it, does not give licence to ignore it, or wait until one day when they learn the prophet was right all along. That is a prescience, premodern, prerational modality, that is mythic-literal thinking. There is no such thing as magically knowing science.

And so while that thinking may work for Stage 3 faith, it does not very well for Stage 4, or Stage 5, or Stage 6 faith. So it's not exactly set up to work well for supporting all stages of faith, and be a universal religion, the source of Light for all.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

True.

The reason I quote from Baha'u'llah is to clarify what the Baha'i faith is. Same deal with Christianity. The discussions here are great, and its so fascinating to consider different perspectives.

Remember, we know what you believe. I could write a book on it by now. I learn more from conversation. I mean, I can quote from what my grandmothers say, stories from my family, little inspirational quotes, and share my journal which are all sacred to me.

But if you asked me in a conversational sense, then I wouldn't need to bring out my whole sacred kit. It is a part of me.

 

[Vinayaka]

True.

Remember, we know what you believe.

Apparently our friends don't think we do. How much do you want to bet the quoting doesn't stop?

 

[1robin]

I wouldn't use the word "mangle" so much as "redefining". Things that contradict are either "symbolic"... Like Creation, the Flood and the Resurrection of Jesus, which are topics in other threads by Adrian... or they were man-made "traditions" added to the original teachings. Which in many cases makes sense and could be true. However, for you as a Christian, it takes your religion and mangles it. Oh okay, I guess mangle does fit, never mind.

Correct, when a Baha'i takes each biblical verse out of it's original context, re-interprets it from the radical fringe, then they can no longer be reassembled into a consistent biblical narrative. I have heard believers from several other faiths say that exact same thing about what Baha'i's do to their own religious texts.

 

[1robin]

They do more than just follow culture. They are created by it. It constitutes the boundaries of their reality. It provides the language, the modes of thought, the values, and all other notions of truth they use to see the world through. It provides their eyes. It's vastly more than a matter of following. It conditions our perspectives on everything.

Humans are not some monolithic block which all stand of fall together. Few people are completely dominated by their culture but most are influenced. However I still do not see the relevance.

No I'm not. I'm saying the nature of what things "actually" are is conditioned by our programming. You can't know how things "really are" except through those filters which subsequently colorize it as a reflection of that culture. Unless you can claim to have transcended those, but I sincerely doubt you legitimately can, since you are using them to make your case for what you think that truth is.

The sun is spherical in shape and its actual shape is completely independent of what shape I, you, or anyone thinks. Facts don't care about our perceptions, preferences, or feelings. Deny gravity, jump off a cliff, and then we can see whether your assumptions can change the nature of gravity. Are you an anti-realist?

It absolutely is related. Humans create God in their own image. Why do you think there are so many images of God out there, including yours? You assume yours is not a projection, and only theirs are? You might wish to think about that very special position that just happens to be the one you happened upon. It's really hard to defend that.

How do you know the nature of all the thousands of God's men have believed in? You would literally have to go to every place in the universe and run a God detection test to know what you claimed.

My God has no physical attributes, is independent of time, and is omnipresent, etc..... so he obviously is not made in my image.

First of all, all religions are "God based" in one fashion or another. Secondly however, that a religion should hold "complete sovereignty" over it's followers sounds like a recipe for a dangerous cult, not a "true religion". A true religion allows the exploration of truth and meaning. It's not a dictatorship. That is the opposite of a religion of the heart. Is your religion a dictatorship?

I am not sure that all religions are God based, depends on how you define religion. Regardless if there is a God similar to mine then his revelations should have completely sovereignty over creation.

Oh dear, that's a problem. Again, that sounds like a cult. I have faith in God, not a religion. Religions are created by humans. Faith is created by God.

Following your logic to it's inevitable conclusion would mean that even if God exists, even if he communicated to us, he and what he has said should be ignored.

The bible says that theopneustos is GOD breathed and that the Holy Spirit was sent to the apostles and others to instruct them on how to communicate God's will. You must demonstrate that those two things are false before your conclusions are relevant.

Not in my experience. I find the sort you're talking about the most in denial of truth, not facing change, but making every excuse in the world to not face it, and calling that "faith". I find it tragic on the deepest levels. Not praiseworthy at all.

I have been a prayer councilor for years and spend hours almost daily reading theological scholars. You have not provided anything to disbelieve what I have observed.

If you ignore the Grand Inquisition, you might have an argument. Also, if you ignore "disfellowshipping", and if you ignore shunning, disowning, excommunication, and all the other things that goes along with Christians who don't toe the line.

I was just talking about modern times, Christianity certainly has it's blemishes but if you want to identify the real horror stories look at the modern atheist utopias like Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot. They have killed tens of millions of their own people.

In the words of an atheist:

Nietzsche predicted that the twentieth century man would come of age. By this he meant that the atheist of the twentieth century would realize the consequences of living in a world without God, for without God there are no absolute moral values. Man is free to play God and create his own morality. Because of this, prophesied Nietzsche, the twentieth century would be the bloodiest century in human history.
Approaching the 21st Century: The Death of God, Truth, Morality, and Man

Only he wasn't pessimistic enough, the 20th century was bloodier than all previous centuries combined.

Another?
If god does not exist everything is permitted – Dostoevsky

Oh goodness, Christianity is totally morphed and shaped by culture throughout the ages!

I did not say it was free of outside influence, I said it was resistant to it more than most faiths.

 

[1robin]

I have been a fundamentalist Christian and keep close contact with such Christians through my work. Therefore I feel I have some insight about how Christians think. They generally compare beliefs of other faiths to their own, and when differences arise, as they always do, they reject that religion as being false.

That is exactly what the bible tells us to do.

1 John 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God. For many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this …

You are the one criticizing the Baha'i Faith. Prove that it is untrue so we can consider your arguments.

1. Jesus was killed by crucifixion, but rose on the third day.
2. They neither crucified nor killed him.

Baha'i claims that both are true. I do not even need to show which (if either) is true to deny Baha'i's conclusion. It is called the law of non-contradiction and it has no known exception.

As Christians rely on the words of Jesus and the apostles as recorded in the NT, Baha'is rely on the words of Baha'u'llah and His authorised interpreters Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi.

I do what the bible says I should do, compare all revelations to the bible. If they contradict the bible they are to be rejected. I have seen much in Baha'ism that contradicts the bible.

The problem with that argument is you are unable to verify directly whether or not someone has achieved 'eternal unity with God'.

I am not talking about any specific person having any specific experience with God. I am talking about doctrines, there are no guarantees to supernatural experiences promised to every believer in any religion outside Christianity.

All true religions promote love, unity, and virtue.

Look up divine command theory. I do not think one exists but there is no reason a perfectly evil God could not exist.

I would appreciate some clarity. You could be arguing that your car is exclusive because truth is exclusive.

My car is exclusive, there is one and only one car that is mine. Saying get in my car excludes all other cars as the object of that statement. Almost all truth statements are exclusive, they rule out everything except themselves. How many answers does 2 + 2 have? It excludes every other number except 4.

Thats not necessarily a bad thing.

When basically the vast majority of believers deny the interpretations made by Baha'i's concerning their own texts, your position is vanishingly improbable.

Just because others say it, doesn't mean its true.

It makes it more likely to be true than its negation.

 

[1robin]

Good point.

One of thousands just concerning contradictions alone.

Of course Muhammad could easily have been saying they didn't kill His spirit so really no contradiction at all. It is a good example about how literalist interpretations can cause confusion and divisions when none were intended.

See, your doing exactly what I said here only in reverse. It is Islam's teachings that your distorting here.

1. It wasn't talking about his spirit because the verse says that it appeared to them that they had killed him.
2. The death of a soul or spirit is not something that we can view so it could not have appeared to anyone.
3. Spiritual death is separation from God (the father), this is what Christ actually saved us from. He was separated from the father so we will not have to be. He wasn't saving us from physical death, we still physically die. Spiritual death (the bible calls it the second death) is what Christ suffered so we will not have to.
4. However Christ could rejoin his father (God) on the third day because he had no sins of his own which prevented re-union with the father.
5. Muhammad wasn't there and therefore contradicts the bible quite often.

I would argue that the more important contradictions are with science. A literal resurrection is the example already raised (excuse the pun). Interpreting stories in genesis as historic events such as the creation of the world in six days and squeezing all the worlds animals onto Noah's ark are further examples.

Natural laws are descriptive not prescriptive. Natural laws necessarily do not bind supernatural events. How can the natural govern the trans-natural?

 

[Dawnofhope]

I don't see any clear lines hear at all. It's almost all proselytising to me.

Fair enough. I think we see different lines here. I do believe the Baha'i faith has something to offer and I want to share it with those who are interested. On the other hand if people don't want to hear about it then I don't want to speak of it.

In fact, the very minute you feel you want to teach others about your faith indicates you think your faith is superiour to theirs. If not, then there would be no need to 'share'.

I agree.

For me, there is only one condition to be met before sharing, and that's if a person genuinely asks for information.

Possibly. I don't see teaching as one who is learned saying something to one who is ignorant. Rather two friends or acquaintances sharing what they care about. Then it is mutual and we learn from each other.

This is just another example of the hypocrisy. You say that all faiths are wonderful, in unity, you have respect for them, and then immediately go out and prove you don't by trying to change them to yours.

I don't think all faiths are wonderful though. For example Christianity has become divided and corrupted. Its too far gone. Islam hardly inspires me either. Atheism is a natural outcome because of how bad these religions have become. But then there is no God so that's not the future.

A mutual dialogue, like what is happening here is different, although to me simply quoting your prophet with no other commentary is also proselytising.

There's some truth in that.

As for crediting Baha'i' with changing your life, you don't actually know that. It may well have been your own natural maturing, getting married, getting a decent job, etc. It is impossible to live the two lives simultaneously, with Baha'i' and without Baha'i', for a fair comparison. Maybe you would have been even happier. From your intelligence shown here, I suspect your life would have been similar.

I recall a lesson from my father when I mentioned my new religion had gotten me to quit smoking. He stared me down and said, 'No, it was YOU who quit smoking."

Sounds like you have some of the qualities of your father... very direct.

I did have a period in life where I decided there was probably no God. It was the worst nine months of my life. But when I turned my heart towards God again that my spirits lifted.

Sometimes people end up with the religion they deserve.