Prior to Bethleham Jesus

[Nada]

I have read it and studied it thoroughly. But you're failing to understand the basic definition of "begotten".

As I said before, you are focusing on the symbolic meaning of the word "only-begotten", but are completely forgetting in the case of Isaac and Ishmael that it also has a literal meaning.

Yes, Isaac is called the firstborn son because he was the son of the promise. But we're not talking about Isaac, or his promise, or Sarah. We are talking about what the definition of "begotten" means, and we are talking about a time before Isaac existed.

Before Abraham/Abram begot Isaac, he begot Ishmael. Ishmael was, up until the conception of Isaac, the only son that Abraham begot. Therefore, Ishmael was Abraham's/Abram's only-begotten son.

Just because Scripture doesn't spell out every single little tiny detail for us doesn't mean that every single little tiny detail doesn't exist. By your logic, no one ever pooped or peed in the Bible, because the Bible never says that anyone did.

It's time to start learning to actually use your head and do basic logical deduction. Just because there isn't a verse in the Bible for it doesn't mean it's not true.

No.You are still incorrect.For some reason something is causing you not to learn and know the truth

 

[Nada]

I believe the Person of Jesus Christ always existed as the eternal Son of God prior to becoming human.

What you believe is correct.

 

[InChrist]

What you believe is correct.

And that the One Creator God has eternally existed in three Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

 

[Nada]

And that the One Creator God has eternally existed in three Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

With that I must respectfully disagree,according to what the holy scriptures says.
According to the HS,there is no Trinity.It never mentions one.What many have come to believe as the Trinity is actually a false doctrine spread by men, and does not originate with Gods Word.

John 14:11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.

When many read this,they assume that this means that God,Jesus and the holy spirit are one,because of what has been taught by those who do not know the truth.This is incorrect.
God is the Almighty.Jesus is His Son and first creation.The holy spirit is Gods active force.The same force that was used to create the universe and inspire the holy scriptures to be written by man.

If you notice in the scripture,it never mentions the holy spirit.It only mentions God and Jesus.
When Jesus says that he and the Father are in each other,this simply means that it is a spiritual union.It is symbolic and not to be taken literally.

If it were to be taken literally,then,this next scripture would mean that all the people ,along with God and Jesus are in the holy Trinity.
John 14:20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

It is speaking of a spiritual union.Thats all.......
Also this one.John 17:21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.


Notice also that the holy spirit is never mentioned in any of these scriptures I have shown you.
Think about that.If there is definitely a holy Trinity of three,then, why does it not mention three? It always mentions 2.

 

[allright]

You still do not understand.

Your right I dont Please explain how Jewish years count as 365 day years.

 

[Shiranui117]

No.You are still incorrect.For some reason something is causing you not to learn and know the truth

And for some reason you're unable to tell my why I'm incorrect.

 

[InChrist]

With that I must respectfully disagree,according to what the holy scriptures says.
According to the HS,there is no Trinity.It never mentions one.What many have come to believe as the Trinity is actually a false doctrine spread by men, and does not originate with Gods Word.

John 14:11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.

When many read this,they assume that this means that God,Jesus and the holy spirit are one,because of what has been taught by those who do not know the truth.This is incorrect.
God is the Almighty.Jesus is His Son and first creation.The holy spirit is Gods active force.The same force that was used to create the universe and inspire the holy scriptures to be written by man.

If you notice in the scripture,it never mentions the holy spirit.It only mentions God and Jesus.
When Jesus says that he and the Father are in each other,this simply means that it is a spiritual union.It is symbolic and not to be taken literally.

If it were to be taken literally,then,this next scripture would mean that all the people ,along with God and Jesus are in the holy Trinity.
John 14:20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

It is speaking of a spiritual union.Thats all.......
Also this one.John 17:21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.


Notice also that the holy spirit is never mentioned in any of these scriptures I have shown you.
Think about that.If there is definitely a holy Trinity of three,then, why does it not mention three? It always mentions 2.

I think it is easy to pull isolated scriptures apart from the entirety of the whole counsel of God, yet when the Bible is read and taken as a whole I find it impossible to miss the revelation of the three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as the One God starting in the very first chapter of the Bible.

I realize that many pseudo-Christian groups which deny the deity of Christ also hold to this aberrant view of denying the triune nature of God, along with instructing their members how to interpret such verses and the rest of the scriptures. Yet, the Bible presents a God with love as an integral aspect of His Being and states that God is LOVE. Not only that, but that the Creator God is eternally complete and Self-existent having no need to create any other beings for love, fellowship, and communion to have occurred from eternity. I believe such love and communion is only possible and has eternally existed within God because the God of the Bible is One of singularity and plurality, unity and diversity all within Himself.

If you think about it, this triune nature of God is stamped on His creation. The cosmos is divided into three: space, matter and time. Each of these is divided into three. Space, for instance, is composed of length, breadth and width, each separate and distinct in itself, yet the three are one. Length, breadth and width are not three spaces, but three dimensions comprising one space. Run enough lines lengthwise and you take in the whole. But so it is with the width and height. Each is separate and distinct, yet each is all of space—just as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is each God. Time also reflects God's triune nature: past, present and future—two invisible and one visible. Each is separate and distinct, yet each is the whole. Man himself is a triunity of spirit, soul and body, two of which are invisible, one visible. This can hardly be coincidence.


In the Hebrew scriptures the word elohim (gods) occurs about 2,500 times, while the singular form occurs only 250 times and most of those designate false gods. Genesis:1:1 reads, "In the beginning, elohim created the heaven and the earth"; i.e., literally, " gods created the heaven and the earth." Though a single noun is available, yet the plural form is consistently used for God. And in violation of grammatical rules, with few exceptions, singular verbs and pronouns are used with this plural noun . Why?


At the burning bush it was elohim ( gods ) who spoke to Moses. Yet elohim did not say, "We are that we are," but "I AM THAT I AM" (Ex 3:14). One cannot escape the fact that, all through the Bible, God is presented as a plurality and yet as One, as having both diversity and unity . This is unique among all the world's religions.


It is one thing not to fully understand the triune nature of God, but I believe to outright reject the Trinity is to reject the God of the Bible and the Creator of heaven and earth.


Jesus Himself told His followers to...Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit... Matthew 28:19

 

[Nada]

And for some reason you're unable to tell my why I'm incorrect.

I explained numerous times, but you cannot see what you do not understand.Just like when I asked you repeatedly to show me where it says in the holy scriptures that Ishmael is the only begotten son.You know it does not ,so you make up words, and tap dance around it, instead of admitting that it does not ever say that.

 

[Nada]

I think it is easy to pull isolated scriptures apart from the entirety of the whole counsel of God, yet when the Bible is read and taken as a whole I find it impossible to miss the revelation of the three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as the One God starting in the very first chapter of the Bible.

I realize that many pseudo-Christian groups which deny the deity of Christ also hold to this aberrant view of denying the triune nature of God, along with instructing their members how to interpret such verses and the rest of the scriptures. Yet, the Bible presents a God with love as an integral aspect of His Being and states that God is LOVE. Not only that, but that the Creator God is eternally complete and Self-existent having no need to create any other beings for love, fellowship, and communion to have occurred from eternity. I believe such love and communion is only possible and has eternally existed within God because the God of the Bible is One of singularity and plurality, unity and diversity all within Himself.

If you think about it, this triune nature of God is stamped on His creation. The cosmos is divided into three: space, matter and time. Each of these is divided into three. Space, for instance, is composed of length, breadth and width, each separate and distinct in itself, yet the three are one. Length, breadth and width are not three spaces, but three dimensions comprising one space. Run enough lines lengthwise and you take in the whole. But so it is with the width and height. Each is separate and distinct, yet each is all of space—just as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is each God. Time also reflects God's triune nature: past, present and future—two invisible and one visible. Each is separate and distinct, yet each is the whole. Man himself is a triunity of spirit, soul and body, two of which are invisible, one visible. This can hardly be coincidence.


In the Hebrew scriptures the word elohim (gods) occurs about 2,500 times, while the singular form occurs only 250 times and most of those designate false gods. Genesis:1:1 reads, "In the beginning, elohim created the heaven and the earth"; i.e., literally, " gods created the heaven and the earth." Though a single noun is available, yet the plural form is consistently used for God. And in violation of grammatical rules, with few exceptions, singular verbs and pronouns are used with this plural noun . Why?


At the burning bush it was elohim ( gods ) who spoke to Moses. Yet elohim did not say, "We are that we are," but "I AM THAT I AM" (Ex 3:14). One cannot escape the fact that, all through the Bible, God is presented as a plurality and yet as One, as having both diversity and unity . This is unique among all the world's religions.


It is one thing not to fully understand the triune nature of God, but I believe to outright reject the Trinity is to reject the God of the Bible and the Creator of heaven and earth.


Jesus Himself told His followers to...Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit... Matthew 28:19

There is no Trinity.Its a misconception based on man made beliefs that have no biblical backing whatsoever.I gave you examples using Gods own word.The holy sprit is never mentioned when Jesus says that he and the Father are one.There is never a third spoken of.

When it says,"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit... Matthew 28:19" This is not saying there are three in one.You just interpret it that way according to your teachings.


Matthew 28:19 is usually cited to prove the doctrine. The text from the King James Version quotes Jesus: “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” True, the Father, the Son, and the holy ghost (or spirit) are all mentioned in this text. However, nothing is said about their being one. Jesus was commissioning his Jewish followers to teach and baptize people in the name of the Father, the Son, and the holy spirit. As a nation, what did the Jews believe?

When the nation of Israel received the Law covenant, which forms part of the Bible, they were commanded: “You must never have any other gods against my face.” (Deuteronomy 5:7) How many persons were speaking here? Without any confusion, Deuteronomy 6:4 reads: “Listen, O*Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah”—not three in one. Israel had just been liberated from Egypt, where Osiris, Isis, and Horus (shown at left)—one of a number of triads of gods—were worshipped. Therefore, Israel was commanded to worship just one God. How important was it for people to understand this command? According to Dr.*J.*H.*Hertz, a rabbi: “This sublime pronouncement of absolute monotheism was a declaration of war against all polytheism .*.*. The Shema excludes the trinity of the Christian creed as a violation of the Unity of God.”

Since Jesus was a Jew by birth, he was instructed to follow this same command. After his baptism, when tempted by the Devil, he said: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” (Matthew 4:10; Deuteronomy 6:13) We can learn at least two things from this incident. First, Satan was trying to entice Jesus to worship someone other than Jehovah, an attempt that would have been absurd if Jesus were part of the same God. Second, Jesus made it clear that there is just one God who must be worshipped when he said “him alone,” not “us,” which he would have said if he were part of a Trinity.

When people come to an accurate knowledge of God and want to serve him, they are baptized “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit.” (Matthew 28:19) They understand and accept the authority of Jehovah and the role of Jesus Christ in the outworking of Jehovah’s purpose. (Psalm 83:18; Matthew 28:18) They also comprehend the function and activity of God’s holy spirit, which is his active force.—Genesis 1:2; Galatians 5:22, 23; 2*Peter 1:21.


The Trinity doctrine has confused people for centuries.

 

[Nada]

I think it is easy to pull isolated scriptures apart from the entirety of the whole counsel of God, yet when the Bible is read and taken as a whole I find it impossible to miss the revelation of the three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as the One God starting in the very first chapter of the Bible.

I realize that many pseudo-Christian groups which deny the deity of Christ also hold to this aberrant view of denying the triune nature of God, along with instructing their members how to interpret such verses and the rest of the scriptures. Yet, the Bible presents a God with love as an integral aspect of His Being and states that God is LOVE. Not only that, but that the Creator God is eternally complete and Self-existent having no need to create any other beings for love, fellowship, and communion to have occurred from eternity. I believe such love and communion is only possible and has eternally existed within God because the God of the Bible is One of singularity and plurality, unity and diversity all within Himself.

If you think about it, this triune nature of God is stamped on His creation. The cosmos is divided into three: space, matter and time. Each of these is divided into three. Space, for instance, is composed of length, breadth and width, each separate and distinct in itself, yet the three are one. Length, breadth and width are not three spaces, but three dimensions comprising one space. Run enough lines lengthwise and you take in the whole. But so it is with the width and height. Each is separate and distinct, yet each is all of space—just as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is each God. Time also reflects God's triune nature: past, present and future—two invisible and one visible. Each is separate and distinct, yet each is the whole. Man himself is a triunity of spirit, soul and body, two of which are invisible, one visible. This can hardly be coincidence.


In the Hebrew scriptures the word elohim (gods) occurs about 2,500 times, while the singular form occurs only 250 times and most of those designate false gods. Genesis:1:1 reads, "In the beginning, elohim created the heaven and the earth"; i.e., literally, " gods created the heaven and the earth." Though a single noun is available, yet the plural form is consistently used for God. And in violation of grammatical rules, with few exceptions, singular verbs and pronouns are used with this plural noun . Why?


At the burning bush it was elohim ( gods ) who spoke to Moses. Yet elohim did not say, "We are that we are," but "I AM THAT I AM" (Ex 3:14). One cannot escape the fact that, all through the Bible, God is presented as a plurality and yet as One, as having both diversity and unity . This is unique among all the world's religions.


It is one thing not to fully understand the triune nature of God, but I believe to outright reject the Trinity is to reject the God of the Bible and the Creator of heaven and earth.


Jesus Himself told His followers to...Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit... Matthew 28:19

Yeah I also use the Time ,Space and Matter to explain to Atheist about Gods wisdom.It is not "space, matter and time" It has to be in the correct order.First there has to be time.After time is created,then there is space.After time and space are created,then there can be matter.In that order.

THIS IS HOW I EXPLAIN IT.

If we read the very first sentence in the holy scriptures its Genesis 1:1 It says, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Ok...Lets dig DEEP beneath the verse.
In the beginning =TIME the heavens=SPACE Earth=MATTER
So,we end up with TIME,SPACE & MATTER. Scientist have barely come to agree that this is how they believe the universe was created. In this order. This was just found out in the latter part of the 20th century.God,our creator, let mankind know this over 3,000 years ago.

TIME,SPACE & MATTER is the formula God used to create the universe.This is just in the first sentence of the holy scriptures. Imagine the knowledge one can learn if we only apply ourselves and begin a relationship with the Grand creator.

 

[Shiranui117]

I explained numerous times, but you cannot see what you do not understand.Just like when I asked you repeatedly to show me where it says in the holy scriptures that Ishmael is the only begotten son.You know it does not ,so you make up words, and tap dance around it, instead of admitting that it does not ever say that.

Yes, there's not a verse in the Bible that states "Before Isaac was born, Ishmael was the only son begotten by Abram/Abraham". But if you are even slightly capable of taking the definition of one simple word and doing one basic exegetical exercise, then you can clearly and easily see what I have been saying all along.

Bible verses are not substitutes for logical reasoning. If you are unable or unwilling to apply basic etymology and logic, that's your problem, not mine.

Have fun confining yourself to the letters on the page and avoiding all logical reflection on the text. I'm done trying to explain basic reasoning to you.

 

[Nada]

Yes, there's not a verse in the Bible that states "Before Isaac was born, Ishmael was the only son begotten by Abram/Abraham". But if you are even slightly capable of taking the definition of one simple word and doing one basic exegetical exercise, then you can clearly and easily see what I have been saying all along.

Bible verses are not substitutes for logical reasoning. If you are unable or unwilling to apply basic etymology and logic, that's your problem, not mine.

Have fun confining yourself to the letters on the page and avoiding all logical reflection on the text. I'm done trying to explain basic reasoning to you.

You finally admitted it.Congratulations! You are still incorrect though

 

[InChrist]

There is no Trinity.Its a misconception based on man made beliefs

As I previously said, I see the triune nature of God expressed throughout the scriptures. I really don’t think it is a concept that is man-made or could be because it is so far beyond man’s ability to come up with such a concept and could only come through God’s revelation about Himself to humanity revealed by the power of the Holy Spirit.

When it says,"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit... Matthew 28:19" This is not saying there are three in one.You just interpret it that way according to your teachings.

I have no “teachings” except from the scriptures. It may be that that you are interpreting the scriptures through “your teachings” according to the Watchtower. Although, I am a part of the church or the Body of Christ I do not attend, nor am I a member of any denomination.


[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

Deuteronomy 6:4 reads: “Listen, O*Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah”—not three in one. Israel had just been liberated from Egypt, where Osiris, Isis, and Horus (shown at left)—one of a number of triads of gods—were worshipped. Therefore, Israel was commanded to worship just one God.

[/quote]

[FONT=&quot]Yes, it was important for the nation of Israel to worship ONE GOD and be set apart from the nations which worshiped multiple gods. Yet, you seem to be forgetting that the Trinity is just ONE GOD, not gods. Consider that the plural Hebrew noun elohim (literally "gods") used for God repeatedly? In fact, this plural noun is in the center of Israel's famous confession of the oneness of God! The Shema declares, "Hear, O Israel, The Lord our God is one Lord" (Deut 6:4; Mk 12:29). In the Hebrew it reads, "Jehovah our elohim [gods] is one [ echad ] Jehovah." The Hebrew word echad allows for a unity of more than one. For example, it is used in Genesis:2:24 where man and woman become one flesh; in Exodus:36:13 when the various parts "became one tabernacle"; in 2 Samuel:2:25 when many soldiers "became one troop"; and elsewhere.

This is getting too long, I'll have to finish responding in another post.

[/FONT]

 

[InChrist]

Since Jesus was a Jew by birth, he was instructed to follow this same command. After his baptism, when tempted by the Devil, he said: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” (Matthew 4:10; Deuteronomy 6:13) We can learn at least two things from this incident. First, Satan was trying to entice Jesus to worship someone other than Jehovah, an attempt that would have been absurd if Jesus were part of the same God. Second, Jesus made it clear that there is just one God who must be worshipped when he said “him alone,” not “us,” which he would have said if he were part of a Trinity.

According to the scriptures, Jesus was God manifested in the flesh (1 Tim. 3:16), He became fully human for the purpose of living the perfect human life, whereas Adam failed. He lowered Himself to the position of humanity, He did not come to be served, but to serve and to give His life as a ransom for many (Matt. 20:28l Mark 19:45) So would not it stand to reason that He would do nothing other than tell Satan or anyone that only the ONE TRUE GOD is to be worshiped?
[FONT=&quot].

[/FONT]

When people come to an accurate knowledge of God and want to serve him, they are baptized “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit.” (Matthew 28:19) They understand and accept the authority of Jehovah and the role of Jesus Christ in the outworking of Jehovah’s purpose. (Psalm 83:18; Matthew 28:18) They also comprehend the function and activity of God’s holy spirit, which is his active force.—Genesis 1:2; Galatians 5:22, 23; 2*Peter 1:21.

I think when people read the scriptures and seek the leading of God to reveal His truth to their minds He is faithful to do so. The scriptures state that a person only comes to accurate understanding by being taught by the Spirit of God because the things of God are spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2). This chapter, along with several other passages make it clear that the Holy Spirit is the one who does this teaching; a Person of the Godhead, not merely an active force as the Watchtower attempts to claim.


I appreciate reading your perspectives, so thank you, but I don't believe these interpretations from the Watchtower line up with the Biblical scriptures.

 

[Nada]

As I previously said, I see the triune nature of God expressed throughout the scriptures. I really don’t think it is a concept that is man-made or could be because it is so far beyond man’s ability to come up with such a concept and could only come through God’s revelation about Himself to humanity revealed by the power of the Holy Spirit.



I have no “teachings” except from the scriptures. It may be that that you are interpreting the scriptures through “your teachings” according to the Watchtower. Although, I am a part of the church or the Body of Christ I do not attend, nor am I a member of any denomination.


[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Yes, it was important for the nation of Israel to worship ONE GOD and be set apart from the nations which worshiped multiple gods. Yet, you seem to be forgetting that the Trinity is just ONE GOD, not gods. Consider that the plural Hebrew noun elohim (literally "gods") used for God repeatedly? In fact, this plural noun is in the center of Israel's famous confession of the oneness of God! The Shema declares, "Hear, O Israel, The Lord our God is one Lord" (Deut 6:4; Mk 12:29). In the Hebrew it reads, "Jehovah our elohim [gods] is one [ echad ] Jehovah." The Hebrew word echad allows for a unity of more than one. For example, it is used in Genesis:2:24 where man and woman become one flesh; in Exodus:36:13 when the various parts "became one tabernacle"; in 2 Samuel:2:25 when many soldiers "became one troop"; and elsewhere.

This is getting too long, I'll have to finish responding in another post.

[/FONT][/QUOTE]
No.

 

[Nada]

According to the scriptures, Jesus was God manifested in the flesh (1 Tim. 3:16), He became fully human for the purpose of living the perfect human life, whereas Adam failed. He lowered Himself to the position of humanity, He did not come to be served, but to serve and to give His life as a ransom for many (Matt. 20:28l Mark 19:45) So would not it stand to reason that He would do nothing other than tell Satan or anyone that only the ONE TRUE GOD is to be worshiped?
[FONT=&quot].

[/FONT] I think when people read the scriptures and seek the leading of God to reveal His truth to their minds He is faithful to do so. The scriptures state that a person only comes to accurate understanding by being taught by the Spirit of God because the things of God are spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2). This chapter, along with several other passages make it clear that the Holy Spirit is the one who does this teaching; a Person of the Godhead, not merely an active force as the Watchtower attempts to claim.


I appreciate reading your perspectives, so thank you, but I don't believe these interpretations from the Watchtower line up with the Biblical scriptures.

Your interpretations are not lining up with the holy scriptures.

 

[ZooGirl02]

I believe that Jesus was the Son of God from eternity to all eternity. The only thing that changed when He was born was that He became man as well as God. He is 100% man and 100% God.

 

[Desert Snake]

I believe that Jesus was the Son of God from eternity to all eternity. The only thing that changed when He was born was that He became man as well as God. He is 100% man and 100% God.

I agree, though I think when Jesus says "I and the Father are One", it is meaning the Godhead is One Deity...I think you agree..

 

[Nada]

When Jesus said "I and the Father are one",Jesus is speaking of a spiritual union.Jesus is saying that he is doing what the Father would do.They are both one and the same from a Characteristic stand point.Jesus is God's representative.What the Father does,so does the Son.Jesus displayed Gods attributes which are Love,Wisdom,Justice and Power.Jesus did not mean that he is literally God.

Notice too that the holy spirit is never mentioned in this union with either Jesus or God.Its always only Jesus and God.

 

[Word]

Think about that.If there is definitely a holy Trinity of three,then, why does it not mention three? It always mentions 2.

1 John 5:7

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."