Prior to Bethleham Jesus

[Nada]

1 John 5:7

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

That does not mean they are a "Trinity" or literally one.What that means is that God is being acknowledged as the Almighty and Jesus Christ is being acknowledged as His Word.All of this is by way of the holy spirit.Thats what it really is saying.You will never find any scriptures that say God is three in one.That scripture is actually taken out of context.What it is really saying is that these three are in agreement.

This can be confirmed by paying close attention to other scriptures such as:
John 14:11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.

John 10:38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."


John 14:10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.


John 10:30 I and the Father are one."

So,if we look at all of these scriptures notice that it never once mentions the holy spirit.

Thats because there are not really three in one.When Jesus says he and the Father are one,he is speaking of a spiritual union,not a literal one.


If we go back to the original scripture you used to prove your point,1 John 5:7,you can clearly see by going on scripture before it that it is speaking of baptism.It verifies what I just explained to you.

6 This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.



Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,


If you truly believe that it literally means that Jesus and God are one then this scripture says that all are one with the Father and Jesus.This would mean by your logic that all are then part of the holy Trinity right? No.....

John 17:21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

Do you see what i mean now?

 

[Word]

That does not mean they are a "Trinity" or literally one.What that means is that God is being acknowledged as the Almighty and Jesus Christ is being acknowledged as His Word.All of this is by way of the holy spirit.Thats what it really is saying.You will never find any scriptures that say God is three in one.That scripture is actually taken out of context.What it is really saying is that these three are in agreement.

This can be confirmed by paying close attention to other scriptures such as:
John 14:11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.

John 10:38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."


John 14:10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.


John 10:30 I and the Father are one."

So,if we look at all of these scriptures notice that it never once mentions the holy spirit.

Thats because there are not really three in one.When Jesus says he and the Father are one,he is speaking of a spiritual union,not a literal one.


If we go back to the original scripture you used to prove your point,1 John 5:7,you can clearly see by going on scripture before it that it is speaking of baptism.It verifies what I just explained to you.

6 This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.



Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,



Do you see what i mean now?

I do see what you mean. You said:


"If you truly believe that it literally means that Jesus and God are one then this scripture says that all are one with the Father and Jesus.This would mean by your logic that all are then part of the holy Trinity right? No.....

John 17:21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me."

Right, no. I never stated an opinion, or any logic. I just posted a Scripture that proved the Word mentions three, since you happened to be incorrect in that it 'never' does.

I'm not interested in being right, just so you know. I just like truth and getting to it. Steel sharpens steel, if you will. You're serving the Lord. We thank you.

 

[Desert Snake]

That does not mean they are a "Trinity" or literally one.What that means is that God is being acknowledged as the Almighty and Jesus Christ is being acknowledged as His Word.All of this is by way of the holy spirit.Thats what it really is saying.You will never find any scriptures that say God is three in one.That scripture is actually taken out of context.What it is really saying is that these three are in agreement.
This can be confirmed by paying close attention to other scriptures such as:
John 14:11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.

John 10:38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."


John 14:10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.


John 10:30 I and the Father are one."

So,if we look at all of these scriptures notice that it never once mentions the holy spirit.

God isn't 'three in one', that's the whole point. If we interpret the verses the way you do, we actually wind up with 'three in one', it's pretty much unavoidable as Jesus clearly relates Himself to the Father.

That verse implies unity, sameness, not separateness.

Same.

This is where you are getting mixed up imo. The nature of Jesus as man is that He has a 'Father' (God), however Jesus in Spirit is the same as God. All manifestations of the same God.

Very clear verse. It's meant to be plain so there is no ambiguation. "ONE" is not separate, there is no mental gymnastics that can twist that to mean multiple characters.

The Holy Spirit is always present, that was how God manifested through Mary, it's semantics at some level possibly, I don't call myself a 'trinitarian'.

 

[Katzpur]

That verse implies unity, sameness, not separateness.

Very clear verse. It's meant to be plain so there is no ambiguation. "ONE" is not separate, there is no mental gymnastics that can twist that to mean multiple characters.

Just a quick comment here from another non-trinitarian...

I believe that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are physically distinct from one another, and yet they are also “one.” There are numerous instances where the word "one" is found in the scriptures denoting a unity which is not physical:

Exodus 24:3 "And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do."

2 Corinthians 13:11 "Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you."

Acts 4:32 "And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common."

In each of these examples, the word "one" is used to describe a unity that has nothing to do with the numeral "1" or, in fact, to physical unity. We believe that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are "one in will, purpose, mind, heart, power and glory." It would be impossible to explain, or even to understand, the degree of their unity. It is perfect; it is absolute. They think, feel and act as "one God." Because of this perfect unity, and because they share the title of "God," we can think of them together in this way. It would be impossible for us to worship one of them without also worshipping the other.

 

[Nada]

I do see what you mean. You said:


"If you truly believe that it literally means that Jesus and God are one then this scripture says that all are one with the Father and Jesus.This would mean by your logic that all are then part of the holy Trinity right? No.....

John 17:21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me."

Right, no. I never stated an opinion, or any logic. I just posted a Scripture that proved the Word mentions three, since you happened to be incorrect in that it 'never' does.

I'm not interested in being right, just so you know. I just like truth and getting to it. Steel sharpens steel, if you will. You're serving the Lord. We thank you.

You are very welcome

Ps.I'm not sure if you are still not understanding John 5:7 scripture.It does not mean that God,Jesus and the holy spirit are literally three in one.It means that that they are in agreement.God and Jesus are one spiritually.God is the Almighty.Jesus is the Word of God.The holy spirit is the means by which all of this is taking place.Thats why I pointed out all of those scriptures where it shows only God and Jesus mentioned as in each other.Its is they that are in a spiritual union together.Jesus does as the Father does.Then,it mentions the people in Jesus and God in a spiritual union.Because the people are doing as Jesus does,they are Christians.They are following Jesus' example and Jesus is doing what God does.

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as the Christ is head of the congregation {Gr. ekklesia – called out ones}, and it is he who gives saving health to the body.


Yes the Word of God does sharpen.... Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

 

[Nada]

God isn't 'three in one', that's the whole point. If we interpret the verses the way you do, we actually wind up with 'three in one', it's pretty much unavoidable as Jesus clearly relates Himself to the Father.

That verse implies unity, sameness, not separateness.

Same.

This is where you are getting mixed up imo. The nature of Jesus as man is that He has a 'Father' (God), however Jesus in Spirit is the same as God. All manifestations of the same God.

Very clear verse. It's meant to be plain so there is no ambiguation. "ONE" is not separate, there is no mental gymnastics that can twist that to mean multiple characters.

The Holy Spirit is always present, that was how God manifested through Mary, it's semantics at some level possibly, I don't call myself a 'trinitarian'.

I know God is not three in one.I do not teach or believe in the Trinity.You must have me confused with someone else or you read my comment wrong.

 

[Word]

I know God is not three in one.I do not teach or believe in the Trinity.You must have me confused with someone else or you read my comment wrong.

God is One.

1 Timothy 2:5 - For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

Mark 12:29 - And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is One Lord...

Yeshua Ha Mashyach is the Son of God, the Living Word

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Word is God, not separate from Him, for God is One.

 

[Nada]

God is One.

1 Timothy 2:5 - For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

Mark 12:29 - And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is One Lord...

Yeshua Ha Mashyach is the Son of God, the Living Word

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Word is God, not separate from Him, for God is One.

I know God is one.That means there is no other but God the Almighty by Himself.

A Text That Teaches the Trinity?

One example of a Bible verse that is often misused is John 1:1. In the King James Version, that verse reads: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God [Greek, ton the·on′], and the Word was God [the·os′].” This verse contains two forms of the Greek noun the·os′ (god). The first is preceded by ton (the), a form of the Greek definite article, and in this case the word the·on′ refers to Almighty God. In the second instance, however, the·os′ has no definite article. Was the article mistakenly left out?
The Gospel of John was written in Koine, or common Greek, which has specific rules regarding the use of the definite article. Bible scholar A.*T.*Robertson recognizes that if both subject and predicate have articles, “both are definite, treated as identical, one and the same, and interchangeable.” Robertson considers as an example Matthew 13:38, which reads: “The field [Greek, ho a·gros′] is the world [Greek, ho ko′smos].” The grammar enables us to understand that the world is also the field.

What, though, if the subject has a definite article but the predicate does not, as in John 1:1?

Citing that verse as an example, scholar James Allen Hewett emphasizes: “In such a construction the subject and predicate are not the same, equal, identical, or anything of the sort.”
To illustrate, Hewett uses 1*John 1:5, which says: “God is light.” In Greek, “God” is ho the·os′ and therefore has a definite article. But phos for “light” is not preceded by any article. Hewett points out: “One can always .*.*. say of God He is characterized by light; one cannot always say of light that it is God.” Similar examples are found at John 4:24, “God is a Spirit,” and at 1*John 4:16, “God is love.” In both of these verses, the subjects have definite articles but the predicates, “Spirit” and “love,” do not. So the subjects and predicates are not interchangeable. These verses cannot mean that “Spirit is God” or “love is God.”

Identity of “the Word”?

Many Greek scholars and Bible translators acknowledge that John 1:1 highlights, not the identity, but a quality of “the Word.” Says Bible translator William Barclay: “Because [the apostle John] has no definite article in front of theos it becomes a description .*.*. John is not here identifying the Word with God. To put it very simply, he does not say that Jesus was God.” Scholar Jason David BeDuhn likewise says: “In Greek, if you leave off the article from theos in a sentence like the one in John 1:1c, then your readers will assume you mean ‘a god.’ .*.*. Its absence makes theos quite different than the definite ho theos, as different as ‘a god’ is from ‘God’ in English.” BeDuhn adds: “In John 1:1, the Word is not the one-and-only God, but is a god, or divine being.” Or to put it in the words of Joseph Henry Thayer, a scholar who worked on the American Standard Version: “The Logos [or, Word] was divine, not the divine Being himself.”


Is Jesus God? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

 

[Word]

So we agree then

 

[Nada]

So we agree then

I would assume so if you do not believe in the Trinity

 

[Word]

I believe that God is One.

 

[Nada]

I believe that God is One.

Do you believe in the Trinity Doctrine?

 

[Word]

I actually must be honest, I have never known exactly what that doctrine dictates.

 

[Shiranui117]

I actually must be honest, I have never known exactly what that doctrine dictates.

It means that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are three distinct Persons, yet one God. It does not mean that God switches between three masks, nor does it mean that there are three separate Gods. Rather, each Person of the Trinity is a distinct manifestation of the Divine Essence. We say in the Orthodox Divine Liturgy that God is "the Trinity, one in essence and undivided".

This teaching comes from the Scriptures and the teachings of the Apostles and those who they personally instructed and appointed as their successors in Christ's Church.

 

[Desert Snake]

It means that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are three distinct Persons, yet one God.

I think only partly distinct, and when Jesus reverted to Deity form, He was simply reverting to 'God', (in totality, He was part human before), hence the verses declaring Oneness with God.

I believe the verses where you have a 'separate' Spirit form Jesus is either poetic, metaphoric, or description (without an explanation) of the Oneness of Deity.

 

[Desert Snake]

I actually must be honest, I have never known exactly what that doctrine dictates.

I believe that what he is actually asking is if you believe Jesus to be God.

 

[Shiranui117]

I think only partly distinct, and when Jesus reverted to Deity form, He was simply reverting to 'God', (in totality, He was part human before), hence the verses declaring Oneness with God.

Can you explain what you mean by "partly distinct"?

In your view, did Jesus cease to be God when He became human, or did He give up some of Who He is as God?

And do you believe that Jesus was fully and truly human, or only partially? Is He no longer human now?

 

[Desert Snake]

Can you explain what you mean by "partly distinct"?

In your view, did Jesus cease to be God when He became human, or did He give up some of Who He is as God?

I think that when Jesus walked among us, as 'man;, or part man, (His Spirit was different), He was partly separated, hence why He says "Father" when referring to God. At the same time He seems to make clear that He is God in Spirit, "I and the Father are One". I think that in Spirit form, since Jesus says that He is One with God, That indicates He IS God, not a separate Deity.

 

[Nada]

I actually must be honest, I have never known exactly what that doctrine dictates.

I appreciate your honesty but how could you even speak about any of this if you have no knowledge about the subject?

 

[Shuttlecraft]

Just wondering, but when people said to Jesus "You're the Son of God", why didn't he reply with- "Wrong, I AM God"?