Prior to Bethleham Jesus

[Nada]

Isaac and Ishmael were both begotten of Abraham. Begotten means "born".

You need to understand what the word only begotten son means.I already explained it to you brother. READ THIS......
King James Bible
Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Now,try to find a scripture where it calls Ishmael the only begotten son.

 

[Nada]

Isaac and Ishmael were both begotten of Abraham. Begotten means "born".

Same with the angles and mankind.They are called sons,but never only begotten sons.Jesus alone holds that title in a literal sense.He is the only begotten Son of God.Just as Abraham's son Isaac is also his only begotten son in a literal sense,even though there is also Ishmael.Do you understand now brother?

 

[Sleeppy]

You need to understand what the word only begotten son means.I already explained it to you brother. READ THIS......
King James Bible
Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Now,try to find a scripture where it calls Ishmael the only begotten son.

One clue is in the way that the term "only"(yahid) is used in the Hebrew Scriptures. Normally yahid meant "only" and referred to an only child (Gen. 22:2, 12, 16; Judg. 11:34; Jer. 6:26; etc.). It also sometimes meant "lonely" or "solitary" (Ps. 25:16; 68:6), or "precious" (Ps. 22:20; 35:17). It is perhaps in this last sense that the Septuagint (the second-century B.C. Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures) rendered yahid as agapetos (beloved), instead of the usual monogenes (only begotten) as in Genesis 22:2, 12, 16. The Septuagint's rendering is significant because this is the word used by God for Jesus at the Mount of Transfiguration according to Matthew 17:5: "This is my beloved [agapetos] Son" (NKJV). In these examples we see that "only [one]" is the one who is unique and especially loved.

The "Only Begotten" Son | The Center for Judaic-Christian Studies


Was Ishmael Abraham's son? Of course. Ishmael was Abraham's only begotten, before Isaac was begotten. "Only begotten" is not literal in Isaac's situation, it is symbolic. Jesus is not literally the only begotten of the Most High, as I've proven through the Tanakh- Jesus was set apart; precious; beloved, in the same manner as Isaac.

 

[Nada]

The "Only Begotten" Son | The Center for Judaic-Christian Studies


Was Ishmael Abraham's son? Of course. Ishmael was Abraham's only begotten, before Isaac was begotten. "Only begotten" is not literal in Isaac's situation, it is symbolic. Jesus is not literally the only begotten of the Most High, as I've proven through the Tanakh- Jesus was set apart; precious; beloved, in the same manner as Isaac.

You are still incorrect brother.No one else is EVER called only begotten son.Jesus is called only begotten Son for a reason.So is Isaac.You are wrong to say that Ishmael was Abrahams only begotten son.Thats goes against what Gods Word teaches.

Try to find a scripture where it calls Ishmael the only begotten son of Abraham.
You will never find such a scripture anywhere in the bible.You are incorrect.

 

[Nada]

The "Only Begotten" Son | The Center for Judaic-Christian Studies


Was Ishmael Abraham's son? Of course. Ishmael was Abraham's only begotten, before Isaac was begotten. "Only begotten" is not literal in Isaac's situation, it is symbolic. Jesus is not literally the only begotten of the Most High, as I've proven through the Tanakh- Jesus was set apart; precious; beloved, in the same manner as Isaac.

Again,you fail to realize truth.Jesus is literally the only begotten Son of the Most high.The reason is that God alone created Jesus, as a spirit, first.It was God, and Jesus, in sprit form.They were together.Then,everything else was created.So,everything that was created after Jesus,in spirit form,was ,in fact,created through Jesus and for him.
Hence,the only begotten Son.

Hebrews 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father"? Or again, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son"?

Thats what this verse is speaking of.You said that God has other sons right?.So we know that already.But,this passage is specifically pointing out the difference between Jesus and the others.Jesus is the only one that holds the special position over all others.
The only begotten Son.

 

[Sleeppy]

You are still incorrect brother.No one else is EVER called only begotten son.Jesus is called only begotten Son for a reason.So is Isaac.You are wrong to say that Ishmael was Abrahams only begotten son.Thats goes against what Gods Word teaches.

Try to find a scripture where it calls Ishmael the only begotten son of Abraham.
You will never find such a scripture anywhere in the bible.You are incorrect.

Genesis 16

And Sarai, Abram's wife, hath not borne to him, and she hath an handmaid, an Egyptian, and her name [is] Hagar; and Sarai saith unto Abram, `Lo, I pray thee, Jehovah hath restrained me from bearing, go in, I pray thee, unto my handmaid; perhaps I am built up from her;' and Abram hearkeneth to the voice of Sarai. And Sarai, Abram's wife, taketh Hagar the Egyptian, her handmaid, at the end of the tenth year of Abram's dwelling in the land of Canaan, and giveth her to Abram her husband, to him for a wife, and he goeth in unto Hagar, and she conceiveth...

Was Ishmael Abraham's only begotten son, at this point?

 

[Nada]

Genesis 16



Was Ishmael Abraham's only begotten son, at this point?

No.he was not.You are still not getting it brother.All that passage is telling us is that Ismael was conceived as the son of Abraham and Hagar.The holy scriptures never calls Ishmael the only begotten son as it does Isaac.I explained to you already that Isaac was born of Sarah,which is Abrahams real wife.Hagar was Abrahams concubine.That is why Isaac is called the only begotten Son.
And ,that is why the promise came through Isaacs seed and not Ishmael's.

 

[Katzpur]

No.We are not divine.When God said,"Let us make mankind in our image,in our likeness",He was speaking of His qualities.His attributes.Those attributes are: Love,Wisdom,Justice and Power.

Oh, I see. So we are like God in our love, wisdom, justice and power. Yeah, I look around me and that's really evident -- people acting with godly love, wisdom, justice and power. If that really were the case -- if our love, wisdom, justice and power were godly -- what would that make us? Divine maybe?

And for the record, you have no more authority to interpret God's words than anyone else. You think He meant one thing; I think He made another. Have you ever tried using the phrase, "In my opinion..." or "I believe that..."? Try it sometime instead of acting as if you're God's right hand man.

 

[Nada]

Oh, I see. So we are like God in our love, wisdom, justice and power. Yeah, I look around me and that's really evident -- people acting with godly love, wisdom, justice and power. If that really were the case -- if our love, wisdom, justice and power were godly -- what would that make us? Divine maybe?

And for the record, you have no more authority to interpret God's words than anyone else. You think He meant one thing; I think He made another. Have you ever tried using the phrase, "In my opinion..." or "I believe that..."? Try it sometime instead of acting as if you're God's right hand man.

No brother,you misunderstand yet again.First,when man was created,man was made perfect.You cannot compare man in the garden of Eden to man of today.When Adam and Eve sinned,they then caused mankind to inherit sin and death.

Second,even though we were created with Gods attributes being: love, wisdom, justice and power,that does not make us divine.We just possess Gods qualities to an extent.Yes we have power but not like God.We can create but it is God who created us.Yes we can love but not like God.God gave His only begotten Son to die for us.Do you think you could do that? We are wise but only God is the wisest.We will never understand what God knows.We have a sense of justice but only God is the most righteous.

Third,for the record,there is only one interpretation,and God is the only interpreter.

Genesis 40:8"We both had dreams," they answered, "but there is no one to interpret them." Then Joseph said to them, "Do not interpretations belong to God? Tell me your dreams."

When you pray,read and study,that is when you come to understand what God is really saying in His Word.It is by grace alone that one comes to acquire an accurate knowledge of the truth.

I am not Gods right hand man.That would be Jesus Christ.I just understand Gods Word.

 

[Katzpur]

No brother,you misunderstand yet again.

First off (but for the second time), I'm not your brother. I'm a woman. Secondly, I'm not misunderstanding; I'm disagreeing. There's a difference.

First,when man was created,man was made perfect.You cannot compare man in the garden of Eden to man of today.When Adam and Eve sinned,they then caused mankind to inherit sin and death.

I've never disputed this. Why do you keep accusing me of saying things I've never said?

Second,even though we were created with Gods attributes being: love, wisdom, justice and power,that does not make us divine.We just possess Gods qualities to an extent.Yes we have power but not like God.We can create but it is God who created us.Yes we can love but not like God.God gave His only begotten Son to die for us.Do you think you could do that? We are wise but only God is the wisest.We will never understand what God knows.We have a sense of justice but only God is the most righteous.

And if we were perfectly loving, wise, just and powerful, we would be like God. Jesus Christ commanded us to be "perfect" as our Father in Heaven is "perfect." Do you believe He would have given us a commandment that we are incapable of obeying? I don't. I'm not saying we can attain perfection in this life, but that we have been given the potential to eventually do so. I understand that you disagree. I realize that C.S. Lewis was probably not anywhere near the "Bible student" you are, but given his academic limitations, I think he did a pretty good job of explaining what God has given us the potential to become.

“The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were “gods” and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him – for we can prevent Him, if we choose – He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said."

Third,for the record,there is only one interpretation,and God is the only interpreter.

Then let Him tell me I'm wrong. It's not your job.

When you pray,read and study,that is when you come to understand what God is really saying in His Word.

What makes you think I don't? Jehovah's Witnesses aren't the only people who ray, read and study, you know.

It is by grace alone that one comes to acquire an accurate knowledge of the truth.

No it's not. Nothing is by grace alone. We are to do our part.

I am not Gods right hand man.That would be Jesus Christ.I just understand Gods Word.

So do I. So that puts us right back at Square One where we started. Actually, we're behind where we started, since you've taken the thread off-topic. We're supposed to be taking about Jesus Christ and His status prior to His birth in Bethlehem, not about our relationship to God.

 

[Nada]

First off (but for the second time), I'm not your brother. I'm a woman. Secondly, I'm not misunderstanding; I'm disagreeing. There's a difference.

I've never disputed this. Why do you keep accusing me of saying things I've never said?

And if we were perfectly loving, wise, just and powerful, we would be like God. Jesus Christ commanded us to be "perfect" as our Father in Heaven is "perfect." Do you believe He would have given us a commandment that we are incapable of obeying? I don't. I'm not saying we can attain perfection in this life, but that we have been given the potential to eventually do so. I understand that you disagree. I realize that C.S. Lewis was probably not anywhere near the "Bible student" you are, but given his academic limitations, I think he did a pretty good job of explaining what God has given us the potential to become.

“The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were “gods” and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him – for we can prevent Him, if we choose – He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said."

Then let Him tell me I'm wrong. It's not your job.

What makes you think I don't? Jehovah's Witnesses aren't the only people who ray, read and study, you know.

No it's not. Nothing is by grace alone. We are to do our part.

So do I. So that puts us right back at Square One where we started. Actually, we're behind where we started, since you've taken the thread off-topic. We're supposed to be taking about Jesus Christ and His status prior to His birth in Bethlehem, not about our relationship to God.

Calm down sister I never accused you of anything.You are misunderstanding everything.


You fail to truly understand what it was Jesus Christ was really saying.You see words and take them at face value but do not really see what lay underneath the meaning of the word itself.

Nevertheless, certain relative perfections are set forth as attainable by sinful humans. Jesus told his followers: “You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” (Mt 5:48) Here his reference was to the matter of love and generosity. He showed that merely to “love those loving you” constituted an incomplete, defective love; hence his followers should perfect their love or bring it to full measure by loving their enemies also, thereby following God’s example. (Mt 5:43-47) Similarly, the young man who questioned Jesus on the way to gain everlasting life was shown that his worship, which already included obedience to the Law’s commandments, was still lacking in vital points. If he ‘wanted to be perfect’ he must bring his worship to full development (compare Lu 8:14; Isa 18:5) by fulfilling these aspects.—Mt 19:21; compare Ro 12:2.



I am not confused like C.S.Lewis



"Then let Him tell me I'm wrong. It's not your job."
Your lack of understanding sister is evident.

NOT GOOD TO SAY SISTER
I told you it is by GRACE alone that one comes to understand the Word of God.Gods own Word says this.You are not only incorrect but you go against the very Word of God, when you claim this.



Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.


So according to Gods Word it is grace that saves you and it is from God.No one can claim to do this on their own since it is a gift from God.
You are incorrect

You said ,"we are to do our part" You are incorrect.Nothing you ever do will cause grace for it is a gift from God that only He can give you.READ THE SCRIPTURE AGAIN AND AGAIN SISTER.


You are correct though when you say we are right back at square one.You still do not understand.

 

[Nada]

First off (but for the second time), I'm not your brother. I'm a woman. Secondly, I'm not misunderstanding; I'm disagreeing. There's a difference.

I've never disputed this. Why do you keep accusing me of saying things I've never said?

And if we were perfectly loving, wise, just and powerful, we would be like God. Jesus Christ commanded us to be "perfect" as our Father in Heaven is "perfect." Do you believe He would have given us a commandment that we are incapable of obeying? I don't. I'm not saying we can attain perfection in this life, but that we have been given the potential to eventually do so. I understand that you disagree. I realize that C.S. Lewis was probably not anywhere near the "Bible student" you are, but given his academic limitations, I think he did a pretty good job of explaining what God has given us the potential to become.

“The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were “gods” and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him – for we can prevent Him, if we choose – He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said."

Then let Him tell me I'm wrong. It's not your job.

What makes you think I don't? Jehovah's Witnesses aren't the only people who ray, read and study, you know.

No it's not. Nothing is by grace alone. We are to do our part.

So do I. So that puts us right back at Square One where we started. Actually, we're behind where we started, since you've taken the thread off-topic. We're supposed to be taking about Jesus Christ and His status prior to His birth in Bethlehem, not about our relationship to God.

I missed this one. "What makes you think I don't? Jehovah's Witnesses aren't the only people who ray, read and study, you know."

First, Sister, I never claimed you did not pray,read or study.I was making a point as to how one comes to understand it,when they have been blessed with grace.

Second,you are correct when you say "Jehovahs Witnesses aren't the only people who pray,read or study." BUT, just because one prays ,reads or studies,does not mean they will learn or be blessed.This is not a guarantee.This gift comes from God.It is by grace alone.


Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.


Remember,faith is not for everyone.

Im not here to fight with you or to prove you wrong sister.I am only correcting and showing you with love.

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,


John 13:35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

 

[Katzpur]

Calm down sister I never accused you of anything.You are misunderstanding everything.

Stop telling me that I'm misunderstanding, when I am merely disagreeing.

You fail to truly understand what it was Jesus Christ was really saying.You see words and take them at face value but do not really see what lay underneath the meaning of the word itself.

Nope. I understand; it's you who doesn't.

Your lack of understanding sister is evident.

Nope. I just disagree with you. Furthermore, your self-righteous attitude is beginning to be a tad tiresome.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

So according to Gods Word it is grace that saves you and it is from God.No one can claim to do this on their own since it is a gift from God.
You are incorrect

You said ,"we are to do our part" You are incorrect.Nothing you ever do will cause grace for it is a gift from God that only He can give you.READ THE SCRIPTURE AGAIN AND AGAIN SISTER.

I see. And if I read it enough times, I'll agree with you? Don't hold your breath. First of all, you say that we must "pray, read and study." Then, when I say that we are to "do our part," you tell me I'm wrong. Make up your mind, "brother." Praying, reading and studying is doing our part. And when we have done these things, we will, by God's grace, be given wisdom. Now, if we're talking about salvation, as opposed to gaining wisdom, we still need to do our part. Faith without works is, after all, dead.

You are correct though when you say we are right back at square one.You still do not understand.

I understand. You think my beliefs are wrong; I think yours are.

 

[Sleeppy]

No.he was not.You are still not getting it brother.All that passage is telling us is that Ismael was conceived as the son of Abraham and Hagar.The holy scriptures never calls Ishmael the only begotten son as it does Isaac.I explained to you already that Isaac was born of Sarah,which is Abrahams real wife.Hagar was Abrahams concubine.That is why Isaac is called the only begotten Son.
And ,that is why the promise came through Isaacs seed and not Ishmael's.

Actually, Hagar was Abraham's wife as well. Read the Scripture I quoted. Ishmael was the only begotten son of Abraham before Isaac. Abraham begat Ishmael, and Ishmael was Abraham's only child at this point; if you deny this, you're being dishonest. Ishmael was also circumcised according to the covenant. However, it was symbolically said of Isaac that he was the only son, because Abraham sent away his wife Hagar along his eldest son.

 

[Nada]

Stop telling me that I'm misunderstanding, when I am merely disagreeing.

Nope. I understand; it's you who doesn't.

Nope. I just disagree with you. Furthermore, your self-righteous attitude is beginning to be a tad tiresome.

I see. And if I read it enough times, I'll agree with you? Don't hold your breath. First of all, you say that we must "pray, read and study." Then, when I say that we are to "do our part," you tell me I'm wrong. Make up your mind, "brother." Praying, reading and studying is doing our part. And when we have done these things, we will, by God's grace, be given wisdom.

I understand. You think my beliefs are wrong; I think yours are.

Your speech is not that of a true Christian sister.You lack self control and lack of understanding.If you knew Gods Word, you would not speak as you do.Just by you stating that it is not by grace alone, and that it is by works,that renders your entire argument null and void.You say one thing, and Gods Word says another.Carry on sister and collect yourself.You are in no position to be telling anyone anything pertaining to the word of God, for you yourself have not yet come to understand it.You are doing more harm than good

 

[Nada]

Actually, Hagar was Abraham's wife as well. Read the Scripture I quoted. Ishmael was the only begotten son of Abraham before Isaac. Abraham begat Ishmael, and Ishmael was Abraham's only child at this point; if you deny this, you're being dishonest. Ishmael was also circumcised according to the covenant. However, it was symbolically said of Isaac that he was the only son, because Abraham sent away his wife Hagar along his eldest son.

Yes ,Hagar was Abrahams second wife.It says so in the holy scriptures.BUT,what you fail to realize is that Sarah was his first wife, and it was because of Sarah that Abraham was given Hagar as a concubine, and wife.That is why Isaac is only called the only begotten Son. NEVER ISHMAEL

Actually it is you who is being dishonest........

You keep stating that Ishmael is the only begotten son of Abraham first.
YOU ARE NOT ONY INCORRECT BUT YOU ARE GOING AGAINST THE VERY WORD OF GOD.

Like I told you before.It NEVER says that in the holy scriptures.

TRY to find one SCRIPTURE where it says that ISMAEL is the only begotten son of Abraham.

You cant.....

NOW,try to find where it says Isaac is the only begotten son of Abraham.

HERE it is....... Hebrews 11:16 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

 

[Nada]

Actually, Hagar was Abraham's wife as well. Read the Scripture I quoted. Ishmael was the only begotten son of Abraham before Isaac. Abraham begat Ishmael, and Ishmael was Abraham's only child at this point; if you deny this, you're being dishonest. Ishmael was also circumcised according to the covenant. However, it was symbolically said of Isaac that he was the only son, because Abraham sent away his wife Hagar along his eldest son.

You are very incorrect brother.You keep stating that Ismael is the only begotten son of Abraham.It NEVER says that in the HS. Then,you say," it was symbolically said of Isaac that he was the only son, because Abraham sent away his wife Hagar along his eldest son."

Wow! you actually leave out the fact that Isaac is called only begotten son,yet,you state it for Ishmael. Amazing!

You are not understand ing Gods Word correctly brother.You say what you want to justify your cause and not the truth.

 

[Katzpur]

Your speech is not that of a true Christian sister.You lack self control and lack of understanding.If you knew Gods Word, you would not speak as you do.Just by you stating that it is not by grace alone, and that it is by works,that renders your entire argument null and void.You say one thing, and Gods Word says another.Carry on sister and collect yourself.You are in no position to be telling anyone anything pertaining to the word of God, for you yourself have not yet come to understand it.You are doing more harm than good

Whatever. I know God's Word every bit as well as you do, and am every bit as good a Christian as you are. I'll tell you one thing, Bible Student. When I stand before God to be judged, He sure as hell isn't going to be asking for your input. It's time to get off your high horse, pal. Your condescending attitude sucks big time.

 

[Nada]

Whatever. I know God's Word every bit as well as you do, and am every bit as good a Christian as you are. I'll tell you one thing, Bible Student. When I stand before God to be judged, He sure as hell isn't going to be asking for your input. It's time to get off your high horse, pal. Your condescending attitude sucks big time.

And again sister, you have condemned yourself with your own tongue.Your language and behavior speaks volumes about your true nature and character.You should quit now before you really say something you will regret


James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire. That world of iniquity, the tongue, is placed within us spotting and soiling our whole nature, and setting the whole round of our lives on fire, being itself set on fire by Gehenna.


Matthew 15:11
What goes into someone's mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them."

Matthew 15:18
But the things that come out of a person's mouth come from the heart, and these defile them.


James 3:9 With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse human beings, who have been made in God's likeness.



Ps.You do not know the Word of God as I do sister.If you did,you would not be in the position you are in now.Just because I understand what God is saying does not mean I'm on a high horse.Your pride is dangerous and gets the best of you.It is you who speaks bad things and it is you who is losing their temper.It is you who condemns themselves with the things that come out of your own mouth.It is you who is being corrected.

 

[Katzpur]

And again sister, you have condemned yourself with your own tongue.Your language and behavior speaks volumes about your true nature and character.You should quit now before you really say something you will regret.

I'm aready there. I already regret wasting my time talking to you. I have demonstrated over nine years on this forum that I am entirely capable of having courteous, respectful discussions with people whose beliefs differ widely from mine. I can tolerate differences of opinion, differences in belief, and differences in worldview. Really, when it gets down to it, about the only thing I cannot tolerate is self-righteousness. Carry on with your judgmental attitude, but don't expect to see any more replies from me.