President Trump to issue new guidance asserting students' right to pray in schools

[halbhh]

The White House said the president will welcome a group of students of Christian, Jewish and Muslim faiths to the Oval Office as he issues the updated guidance affirming constitutional protections for expressions of religion in public schools. In taking the action, Grogan said the president will be updating guidance that hasn’t been adapted since 2003.

Grogan pointed to the case of a group of middle school students in Texas who were repeatedly told not to pray in their school cafeteria during lunch break by the school principal, a decision that was later reversed by school district officials, to highlight why the updated guidance is needed.

Speaking at a Miami church in early January, Trump hinted that the action would be made official today -- Jan. 16.
"Very soon, I’ll be taking action to safeguard students and teachers’ First Amendment rights to pray in our schools," Trump said. "They want to take that right along with many other ones."

In addition to the rights of students, Grogan said the administration will take steps to make sure the federal government is being consistent in not discriminating against organizations because of a religious designation, with nine government agencies set to release proposed rules.

In amplifying the president’s message, the Department of Education is set to send a letter to state education secretaries reminding them of students’ protected First Amendment religious rights.

President Trump to issue new guidance asserting students' right to pray in schools

Well, this is pretty harmful against Christianity, this kind of hypocritical stuff, as if it's merely a....political show.

 

[Samantha Rinne]

I wonder....will he affirm my right to blaspheme in school?

You're basically cursing. Go right ahead. You'll just look like a lunatic.

The US Constitution already protected religious freedom before people decided that separation of church and state somehow meant politicians would burst into flames if they entered a church, or that public school students ought to be completely secularized.

What it doesn't protect is religious customs that act outside the common law of this land.
I'll give three examples:
1. Sharia law (because it often prescribes jihad, and because it is a religious law that acts outside our law)
2. Widow burning (this is something that used to happen in India, but it's forbidden here)
3. Polygamy (we don't care that Mormons or Muslims want it, it's against the law here)

Prayer should not be forbidden anywhere. Honestly, if you know how to pray silently, nobody can take your right to do so away anyway, but trying to is a gross breach of rights.

 

[Samantha Rinne]

Students and teachers are already allowed to pray in school. They're just not allowed to use taxpayer paid school time to do it. E.g. leading prayer during class time.

Nonsense.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

This means that not only is government to be religious neutral, but any laws passed with regard to this are fake, and haven't any merit.

Taxpayer time or not, students are allowed to pray since they are not employed by the school (no taxpayer money wasted). As for the teachers, things get complicated, though as I pointed out, this is something that ought not matter as Congress can't make laws to stop them. Essentially, they can have a cross/Bible on their desk (personal effects). But as to talking about religion, court cases have bypassed some of the natural protections, by deciding that it's mainly only okay if they are talking about such things as relates to class and in a neutral way. This is crap. Schools, even public schools, used to be able to talk freely about Christianity and then the atheists (commies, really) won out and made that taboo. Now it's limited to clubs, events outside school, and maybe even wearing necklaces is banned.

I want everyone to think about that though. Suppose I wore a necklace that wasn't immediately recognizable as a religious them (hamsa for instance, or maybe a sun emblem). I'd be able to get away with it, whereas a person wearing like a Star of David as a teacher would be asked to hide it or take it off. This implies favoritism, by holding certain symbols harmless while telling others they can't wear. In fact, without a star, a Muslim necklace just looks like a moon, and because of deniability, they could probably get away with this while a cross looks like nothing besides a cross.

Conclusion: provided you're not wearing full religious garb (like a hijab, turban, monk/nun robe) I'm not sure there should be laws against this. There should be laws against state religion, harassment, and coercion though.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I wonder....will he affirm my right to blaspheme in school?

Why? Why would you force young, impressionable children to listen to you talk about haggis?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

You're basically cursing. Go right ahead. You'll just look like a lunatic.

The US Constitution already protected religious freedom before people decided that separation of church and state somehow meant politicians would burst into flames if they entered a church, or that public school students ought to be completely secularized.

What it doesn't protect is religious customs that act outside the common law of this land.
I'll give three examples:
1. Sharia law (because it often prescribes jihad, and because it is a religious law that acts outside our law)
2. Widow burning (this is something that used to happen in India, but it's forbidden here)
3. Polygamy (we don't care that Mormons or Muslims want it, it's against the law here)

Prayer should not be forbidden anywhere. Honestly, if you know how to pray silently, nobody can take your right to do so away anyway, but trying to is a gross breach of rights.

Bigamy is against the law. Not polygamy. Polygamy would be prosecuted as multiple counts of bigamy.

 

[PureX]

That's not altogether true. A lawsuit was made against a school district in Utah because a school there allowed student led clubs to use classrooms after school to meet in. They had LBGT meetings, Stamp club meetings, American Atheist youth meetings, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, cheerleaders, English, math and Language clubs. A local Christian (not Mormon...I know it was Utah, but in Utah the Mormons have off campus facilities to do this) group of students wanted to meet for a bible study class after school, on the same terms as everybody else.

They were refused. And they were sued. The Christians won; the judge said that the school COULD NOT discriminate against student led clubs because of religion. So...were the Christians allowed to have their bible class?

No. The school then forbade ANY group from meeting in classrooms after school.

When this decision came down, the local Mormons (remember I said that the Mormons already had off campus facilities for this?) offered to let the Christian club meet in their facilities. As far as I know, they still meet there.

I do NOT support forced prayer in schools. At all. However, 'they' are going way too far. Telling a prayer group that they ARE NOT ALLOWED to meet and have a voluntary prayer in the morning before classes under the flag pole is wrong. However, the kids in my old high school were told just that. In fact, when they ignored the principal and met there anyway, the cops got called. Now this was not forced; every kid there was there voluntarily, and they were no where near any classrooms or other school office or facility...it was just off the parking lot.

At the SAME TIME, this same school has set aside two classrooms so that Muslim students can go there and pray during the day when it is time for them to do so.

BTW, I approve of setting the classrooms aside, if there are classrooms available.
But why do that at the same time they forbid voluntary prayer just outside the parking lot, if the kids praying are Christian?

If Trump is clarifying that to insure that individual students have the right to freedom of speech and religion outside the classroom, I fail to see the problem with that.

The difference, I think, was the Christians making a display of their prayer, and connecting it to the flag. Clearly the idea was to create an association between "God and country". This seems to be a theme among a lot of Christians, these days. This idea that the nation is predominately Christian. That Christians dominate, here. So they stand up in the middle of public school sporting events to pray aloud, so that everyone else there can see them doing it (and be impressed, or intimidated, I guess). They want to push their religiosity into everyone else's consciousness, and associate it with national unity and control. And it's both offensive to others, as well as promoting an uncivil ideal.

 

[pearl]

Students were never forbidden to pray in school, but they must do it silently.

 

[Revoltingest]

You're basically cursing. Go right ahead. You'll just look like a lunatic.

Although to other blasphemers, I'm merely nerdy.

The US Constitution already protected religious freedom before people decided that separation of church and state somehow meant politicians would burst into flames if they entered a church, or that public school students ought to be completely secularized.

Actually, the concept of separation of church & state preceded the Constitution.
Some history on it...
Separation of church and state - Wikipedia

What it doesn't protect is religious customs that act outside the common law of this land.
I'll give three examples:
1. Sharia law (because it often prescribes jihad, and because it is a religious law that acts outside our law)
2. Widow burning (this is something that used to happen in India, but it's forbidden here)
3. Polygamy (we don't care that Mormons or Muslims want it, it's against the law here)

Prayer should not be forbidden anywhere. Honestly, if you know how to pray silently, nobody can take your right to do so away anyway, but trying to is a gross breach of rights.

I have no problem with other people praying.
But when I was in elementary school back in the 50s & early 60s,
we did have teacher led compulsory prayer in public school.
Bible stories were even part of the curriculum. The state picked
the religion (a watered down version of Christianity) which was
for us all. I'm sure you agree that this was wrong.

 

[Revoltingest]

Why? Why would you force young, impressionable children to listen to you talk about haggis?

Spreading the word, my young padawan.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The White House said the president will welcome a group of students of Christian, Jewish and Muslim faiths to the Oval Office as he issues the updated guidance affirming constitutional protections for expressions of religion in public schools. In taking the action, Grogan said the president will be updating guidance that hasn’t been adapted since 2003.

Grogan pointed to the case of a group of middle school students in Texas who were repeatedly told not to pray in their school cafeteria during lunch break by the school principal, a decision that was later reversed by school district officials, to highlight why the updated guidance is needed.

Speaking at a Miami church in early January, Trump hinted that the action would be made official today -- Jan. 16.
"Very soon, I’ll be taking action to safeguard students and teachers’ First Amendment rights to pray in our schools," Trump said. "They want to take that right along with many other ones."

In addition to the rights of students, Grogan said the administration will take steps to make sure the federal government is being consistent in not discriminating against organizations because of a religious designation, with nine government agencies set to release proposed rules.

In amplifying the president’s message, the Department of Education is set to send a letter to state education secretaries reminding them of students’ protected First Amendment religious rights.

President Trump to issue new guidance asserting students' right to pray in schools

I'm sure the gun enthusiasts who like to parrot "we don't need more laws! We need to enforce the ones we have!" will pop out of the woodwork any minute now.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

. But as to talking about religion, court cases have bypassed some of the natural protections, by deciding that it's mainly only okay if they are talking about such things as relates to class and in a neutral way. This is crap. Schools, even public schools, used to be able to talk freely about Christianity and then the atheists (commies, really) won out and made that taboo. Now it's limited to clubs, events outside school, and maybe even wearing necklaces is banned.

Commies?!

Keeping religion personal and academic allows for students and teachers the freedom to feel comfortable with their own religion and culture. A Christian is unlikely to feel out of place in a public school in America given it is the majority religion. But imagine how a Hindu or Muslim might feel, especially in a school in a more rural area.

This is why group prayer should not be allowed, and discussion should be personal and academic in order to maintain an environment open to other religions and cultures so that all students may feel free to explore or express their religion.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I'm not against this at all, so long as it's done on their "free" time -- whether that is lunch or any after-school club or whatever. Doing anything else just leads to problems like school administration basically enforcing a set of beliefs.

Of course I'm also for pagans, satanists, and even atheists being able to do whatever they feel is required by their faith or lack thereof as well in that same period of time.

That's my assessment. I have no problems with facility and students expressing their religion as long it is not incorporated into the curriculum itself.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm sure the gun enthusiasts who like to parrot "we don't need more laws! We need to enforce the ones we have!" will pop out of the woodwork any minute now.

Parrot?

 

[Twilight Hue]

Why? Why would you force young, impressionable children to listen to you talk about haggis?

That could redefine the entirety of Home Ec class.

 

[Mindmaster]

That's my assessment. I have no problems with facility and students expressing their religion as long it is not incorporated into the curriculum itself.

I don't even mind that religion is discussed in school it's a part of our history -- a large part. You can talk about religion without preaching about it, etc. In an anthropological context it's very hard to understand what humans were doing and why without the context of their belief systems.

 

[shmogie]

Sounds like Trump is concerned about the upcoming election if he's stooping to this level of pandering.
Tom

Pandering ? If students want to pray, what is wrong with allowing them to do so ? Not school led prayer, simply praying together.

Recently a high school denied a Christian club for students, yet they allowed a homosexual, transgender club, much fantasy there.

Pure religious descimination and total disregarding the Constitution.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Pandering ? If students want to pray, what is wrong with allowing them to do so ? Not school led prayer, simply praying together.

They are allowed.

Recently a high school denied a Christian club for students, yet they allowed a homosexual, transgender club, much fantasy there.

Which school?

 

[Audie]

I've long thought Trump violent, deceitful, and treasonous

You were claiming that there wasn't enough evidence on the subject.

No, I don't think this is a change in behavior. It's wha I expected

Tom

I think that after trump is gone, most of the head-shaking
(I tupoed shanking" first) will be about the virulence or
TDS, and trying to figure out just exactly what was supposed
to have been so bad about trump.

You may as well hope I am right!

 

[Audie]

They are allowed.


Which school?

Um, you know, there was one, like somewhere,
I heard about it or if not is is just what them anti christ
secular humanist commie liberals would do.

 

[shmogie]

They are allowed.


Which school?

It was in the news last week, check it out.

No, a group of students praying is not allowed. Silent, individual prayer is, only because a method of controlling a students thoughts more effectively has not been found.